For all those of you aren’t aware, the Kaggath is an ancient rite of the Sith, ‘one part duel, one part large-scale dejarik-match’. The two combatants have full use of their power bases, be it armies, strongholds or fleets, in order to outwit and outmanoeuvre their opponent. The Kaggath is no simple lightsaber duel, although it can come down to one, and the arena can be anywhere: a planet, star system or the entire galaxy.

Before we begin, let’s set out the ground rules of the finals:

• The Kaggath is won or lost when the leader of either faction is killed.
  
• No outside help of any kind, the combatants cannot call upon assets outside their power base or influence.
  
• No outside involvement, other powers will not and cannot interrupt or affect the battle, for the purpose of argument they are non-existent.
  
• No surrender, fight to the death!
  
• Apathy is death. Factions are not allowed to hide or wait. They must act.
  
• Technology level is universal (unless considered archaic or advanced at the time): blaster fire, armouring, lightsabers etc. are all the same regardless of period, all that matters is size, quantity and power. Capital ships in particular will be evaluated by classification.
  
• Factions are autonomous – players have no control over their faction’s decisions, this is instead determined by the nature of their leadership.
  

So, the combatants: They thought he was dead, that the Supremacy was over. But they were wrong, and the rumours were true. Deep within the belly of the underworld G0-T0, the legendary crime lord and Grand Champion of the Kaggath, reawakens in a new droid body and reassumes control of his faction. In the wake of a series of devastating conflicts only one faction remains to oppose his rule. The Lord of Betrayal, Darth Traya, musters the sinister forces of the Dark Imperium with plans to put down the droid overlord for a second and final time. Behold the factions!

The Droid Supremacy

Leadership

Head of State: G0-T0

Second-in-Command: Guri

Allies: PROXY & HK-01

Supplier: The Exchange

Military

Minor Ground Force: Trade Federation Army & Terror Units

Naval Force: Black Sun Navy

Planets

Capital: Bothawui

Supply Base: Nar Shaddaa

Stronghold/Military Base: Kamino

Stronghold/Military Base: Geonosis

Shipyards: Mon Calamari

The Dark Imperium

Leadership

Head of State: Darth Traya

Second-in-Command: Admiral Trench

Allies: Darth Maul & HK-47

Supplier: Santhe/Sienar Technologies

Military

Minor Ground Force: Shadow Trooper Legion & Sith Assassins

Major Naval Force: Open Circle Fleet & Malgus’ Stealth Fleet

Planets

Capital: Raxus Secundus

Supply Base: Raxus Prime

Stronghold/Military Base: Malachor V

Stronghold/Military Base: Saleucami

Shipyards: Bonadan

Long awaited? I'll say

Been looking forward to this!

Will start it off with the Traditional run down of why I win

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• HK-47. Who better to cancel down HK-01 than his predecessor? HK-47 is a dominator, he's a fighting machine that could even handle the likes of Guri with ease, fitted with a Stealth Generator by Maul and he's god.
  .
  
• Traya's foresight. Well, if there's a reason to pick G0-T0, it's that he's amazing at playing the coward. He can hide in any little hidey hole like an absolute Baus, and no leader in this Kaggath can effectively track G0-T0 as well as Traya can.
  .
  
• Traya's foreknowledge. She knows everything about G0-T0, and he knows nothing of her. She knows his secret, she know's he's a droid. What on earth would the bounty hunters say if they realised he was a droid? He himself remarks at how pathetic of a crime boss he'd be with just the disguise of a lowly "accountant droid"
  .
  
• Maul. This guy's a baus, he took down the entire Black Sun on his own, all the Vigos, everything. He did this because no matter how much money they throw at bounty hunters, droids, and defenses, No Non-Force User can stop him. This match would be no different to that elimination of the Black sun.
  .
  
• Malgus' Stealth Fleet. Rakata Tech, Nuff said. But in case it's not, these things would decimate Warren's fleets, coming out of stealth, wrecking them from behind. Not going to lie, If we had 5 Harrowers against 40 of her frigates, and it was a fight on the Harrower's terms, I doubt a single Harrower would be scratched.
   
  
• Open Circle Fleet. The powerful ability to keep toe to toe with any amount of Starfighters is something that is blatantly obvious of the open circle fleet. The Mandator alone carries enough Starfighters to Dwarf the Black sun Navy. These guys are also piloted, at least the elite squadrons are, by Dark Jedi from Revan's naval force.
  .
  
• Sith Assassins. Whilst these bad boys are most effective against force users and biologicals, they serve their purpose here. Sith Assassins were known to set up underworld contracts, terrorize planets etc. Once Faith in G0-T0 is lost, these could head to Nar Shadaa and set up contacts and armies.
  .
  
• Shadow Troopers. Stealth, Need I say more? Infiltrate Geonosis/Kamino much?
  .
  
• Santhe/Sienar, I've been through this a LOT, these guys produce everything.
  .
  
• Malachor 5. I know, it's been debated to death, but the fact of the matter is, even if by some miracle Warren gains space superiority, she doesn't have the weaponry to fire long range, she doesn't have the Pilots to land masses of forces here (which is her speciality) and she has no Force users to take on Traya/Maul in the core.
  

I figured I'd give folks more of a reason to read the OP this time so I swapped out the usual faction descriptions for a bit of story time. Enjoy!

Very nice

Begun, the Shadow War has...

Long awaited? I'll say

Been looking forward to this!

 

Will start it off with the Traditional run down of why I win

.

• HK-47. Who better to cancel down HK-01 than his predecessor? HK-47 is a dominator, he's a fighting machine that could even handle the likes of Guri with ease, fitted with a Stealth Generator by Maul and he's god.
  .
   
  

You mean his successor. Also I doubt that latter bit, but your right on HK-01, 47 could take him down.

You mean his successor. Also I doubt that latter bit, but your right on HK-01, 47 could take him down.

Yep, god knows why I put Predecessor

But yeh, I think he could take Guri with a Stealth Field Generator.... His combat skills were exceptional, Sienar has the cloaking fields for it and Mauls skill with technology was unprecedented in the sith.

Yep, god knows why I put Predecessor

 

But yeh, I think he could take Guri with a Stealth Field Generator.... His combat skills were exceptional, Sienar has the cloaking fields for it and Mauls skill with technology was unprecedented in the sith.

Combat skills...you mean firing a blaster? Guri can do that too and is fantastic with H2H coupled with her super speed/strength.

Though HK could probably, she could easily just as trash him.

Alright, I'll throw out a few arguments for the DS.

• Fleet size- the DS's fleet is much, much larger than the DI's and made up of smaller ships. This allows them the ability to move quickly and in large numbers without the DI being able to suitably engage them especially considering the DI's lack of interdiction technology.
  
• They could quite simply build a massive droid army and strike three DI worlds at once running any blockades, then claim Saluecami for the cloning (Terror Droids), or perhaps Raxus Prime for its shipyards and droid factories (crippling the DI's space reinforcements and giving the DS a massive ground advantage even greater than it has), and/or Bonadan's factories as well.
  
• If Raxus Prime falls, the DI's navy's days are numbered. The DS's smaller ships are a boon because they need less space and smaller shipyards to build them. Combining Bothawui and Mon Cal's shipyards with the fighter production over Nar Shadda compared to the largest DI shipyard of Raxus Prime, the DS blows the DI away in starting numbers and production.
  

Just my opening thoughts for Warren. Haven't decided one way or the other.

Alright, I'll throw out a few arguments for the DS.

 

 

• Fleet size- the DS's fleet is much, much larger than the DI's and made up of smaller ships. This allows them the ability to move quickly and in large numbers without the DI being able to suitably engage them especially considering the DI's lack of interdiction technology.
  
• They could quite simply build a massive droid army and strike three DI worlds at once running any blockades, then claim Saluecami for the cloning (Terror Droids), or perhaps Raxus Prime for its shipyards and droid factories (crippling the DI's space reinforcements and giving the DS a massive ground advantage even greater than it has), and/or Bonadan's factories as well.
  
• If Raxus Prime falls, the DI's navy's days are numbered. The DS's smaller ships are a boon because they need less space and smaller shipyards to build them. Combining Bothawui and Mon Cal's shipyards with the fighter production over Nar Shadda compared to the largest DI shipyard of Raxus Prime, the DS blows the DI away in starting numbers and production.
  

 

Just my opening thoughts for Warren. Haven't decided one way or the other.

All of those points seem to rely on the first point, simply because Warren can't land large numbers of troops without space superiority.

And the problem there, is I do have interdictors. 3 different kinds of them....

I'd also state that whilst warrens numbers are astronomically higher, he ships pale in comparison to mine. And I'm talking pale pale, Malgus' stealth fleet alone could obliterate her entire Armada.

Edit: Unpredictability doesn't work, 'cuz Traya, and Storming 3 worlds wouldn't be possible without Geonosian factories, which could easily be destroyed by stealthed forces.

Eg, Trayas skill in shatter point allows her to see the catacomb weakness of the factories, or Stealthed bombers could slip through shields, annihilate, and then restealth.

And the problem there, is I do have interdictors. 3 different kinds of them....

 

I'd also state that whilst warrens numbers are astronomically higher, he ships pale in comparison to mine. And I'm talking pale pale, Malgus' stealth fleet alone could obliterate her entire Armada.

 

Edit: Unpredictability doesn't work, 'cuz Traya, and Storming 3 worlds wouldn't be possible without Geonosian factories, which could easily be destroyed by stealthed forces.

Eg, Trayas skill in shatter point allows her to see the catacomb weakness of the factories, or Stealthed bombers could slip through shields, annihilate, and then restealth.

I'd like to see proof, its not that I don't believe you I just can't think of 3 Sith Empire or OCF ships that act as interdictors off the top of my head...

I'm kinda sick of you overstating the Rakata tech's abilities. I'm not questioning the superiority of your ships but don't overstep your position. Warren's ships don't bring the Harrowers up in armaments like the previous matches, and the Harrower's standard armaments and shields are akin to a small Victory class (without Rakata tech) so even as powerful as they are numbers can still overwhelm them. What we have tro debate is if Warren has those numbers.

There is no way in hell Traya is good enough at foresight to see three unique and separate attacks panned by inorganic beings being launched simultaneously on her worlds and then properly order her forces to attack Geonosis and use her Shatterpoint there as well. The odds of her properly assuming that her visions forsee three different attacks as well as knowing she can move on Geonosis is beyond even her. Not to mention I question how effective her abilities will serve her against machines as there is no intent or whatnot for her to sense. Again, don't overstate her abilities here either.

I accept the stealth bomber argument, though with planetary shields it is still questionable how much good they will actually do.

I'd like to see proof, its not that I don't believe you I just can't think of 3 Sith Empire or OCF ships that act as interdictors off the top of my head...

 

I'm kinda sick of you overstating the Rakata tech's abilities. I'm not questioning the superiority of your ships but don't overstep your position. Warren's ships don't bring the Harrowers up in armaments like the previous matches, and the Harrower's standard armaments and shields are akin to a small Victory class (without Rakata tech) so even as powerful as they are numbers can still overwhelm them. What we have tro debate is if Warren has those numbers.

 

There is no way in hell Traya is good enough at foresight to see three unique and separate attacks panned by inorganic beings being launched simultaneously on her worlds and then properly order her forces to attack Geonosis and use her Shatterpoint there as well. The odds of her properly assuming that her visions forsee three different attacks as well as knowing she can move on Geonosis is beyond even her. Not to mention I question how effective her abilities will serve her against machines as there is no intent or whatnot for her to sense. Again, don't overstate her abilities here either.

 

I accept the stealth bomber argument, though with planetary shields it is still questionable how much good they will actually do.

The Interdictors are from her supplier.

About the Rakata ships. I do agree that Sel overinflated them. I don't see them taking the entire Black Sun Navy, but the general point is that it will take a lot of firepower to bring them down.

The Interdictors are from her supplier.

 

About the Rakata ships. I do agree that Sel overinflated them. I don't see them taking the entire Black Sun Navy, but the general point is that it will take a lot of firepower to bring them down.

Ah, now that makes much more sense.

And admittedly so. Glad we're on the same page, I was fearful after some of the arguments she was making last match and then the open of this one... *whew*

Not to mention I question how effective her abilities will serve her against machines as there is no intent or whatnot for her to sense. Again, don't overstate her abilities here either.

The future of HK-47 and T3-M4 were hidden from Traya, suggesting that her foresight is incapable of reading the future or predicting the movements of mechanical beings.

The Interdictors are from her supplier.

 

About the Rakata ships. I do agree that Sel overinflated them. I don't see them taking the entire Black Sun Navy, but the general point is that it will take a lot of firepower to bring them down.

I didn't mean in one battle, and I stick to the fact that a stealthed fleet equal in firepower to like 60 ISD's (according to Beni) would take down the Black Sun navy...

The future of HK-47 and T3-M4 were hidden from Traya, suggesting that her foresight is incapable of reading the future or predicting the movements of mechanical beings.

It doesn't matter, the fact she can see the future of her own allies is enough.

All she'd need to see is a quick SOS message coming in from 3 commanders at once.

There is no way in hell Traya is good enough at foresight to see three unique and separate attacks panned by inorganic beings being launched simultaneously on her worlds and then properly order her forces to attack Geonosis and use her Shatterpoint there as well. The odds of her properly assuming that her visions forsee three different attacks as well as knowing she can move on Geonosis is beyond even her. Not to mention I question how effective her abilities will serve her against machines as there is no intent or whatnot for her to sense. Again, don't overstate her abilities here either.

Just like to say, this Harrower business isn't me overstating them. We went through every argument on them last round, and beni said these Harrowers were 2-300% (or 3-400%, I forget) more effective than a normal Harrower.

With a normal harrower being the equivalent of an ISD, (Due to them serving the Same role) I stick to my belief.

And it's not like all these things will happen within 20 seconds of her declaring war. She managed to look into the future of all the exiles companions at a whim, without even being fully connected to the force.

And yes, it could be hard to sense te future of droids but it's easy for her to look into the future and see 3 fleet battles, or 3 commanders asking for reinforcements at the same time over Holo.

As for the Geonosis thing, it has no Planetary shields just shields around the factory, the only reason they weren't bombed before was because the Geonosians could defend them, but not here against stealthed ships.

As for the Geonosis thing, it has no Planetary shields just shields around the factory, the only reason they weren't bombed before was because the Geonosians could defend them, but not here against stealthed ships.

I didn't mean in one battle, and I stick to the fact that a stealthed fleet equal in firepower to like 60 ISD's (according to Beni) would take down the Black Sun navy...

Personally, I disagree with those numbers, but if that's what we're going with, fine.

I would like to point out that as a droid neither Traya nor her assassins can use the Force to track G0-T0 in any way. She is effectively blind to all his doings, which could prove a significant advantage to him.I'm not sure what your point here is, the factories are the only things that need to be protected...

Id disagree, Traya said that the droids (G0-T0, T3 and HK) actually had force alignments because of Surik.

She also said that she could track any being by their actions, and that Force users were simply easier, took less time.

I'd say she could track G0-T0. Predicting his moves may be harder, but she could track him.

An explanation for her Malachor talk is easy, that the Exiles choice would alter what happens to T3, whether T3 lives as a republic hero, or dies at the hand of the Emperor, and Traya could not tell the exile and make that choice for her.

I see no evidence that she cannot track them.

As for the Geonosis thing, point was that ships could be tracked entering into a planetary shield, but with individual shields they wouldn't have long enough to stop the factory going "boom"

Just like to say, this Harrower business isn't me overstating them. We went through every argument on them last round, and beni said these Harrowers were 2-300% (or 3-400%, I forget) more effective than a normal Harrower.

 

With a normal harrower being the equivalent of an ISD, (Due to them serving the Same role) I stick to my belief.

However it seems the Imperial Navy consisted mainly of ISDs, not ISD-IIs. So with the ISDs, like the Harrowers, being the mainstay of the Imperial Navy I'd say the era equivalent for the Harrower would be the ISD-I. Still they'll prove a major obstacle for the Supremacy, but this could be overcome if they say acquire a crystal field gravtrap.

Id disagree, Traya said that the droids (G0-T0, T3 and HK) actually had force alignments because of Surik.

She also said that she could track any being by their actions, and that Force users were simply easier, took less time.

 

I'd say she could track G0-T0. Predicting his moves may be harder, but she could track him.

An explanation for her Malachor talk is easy, that the Exiles choice would alter what happens to T3, whether T3 lives as a republic hero, or dies at the hand of the Emperor, and Traya could not tell the exile and make that choice for her.

 

I see no evidence that she cannot track them.

 

 

As for the Geonosis thing, point was that ships could be tracked entering into a planetary shield, but with individual shields they wouldn't have long enough to stop the factory going "boom"

I find your explanation unlikely. Given that the book hadn't even been written yet. This also doesn't explain HK, or why she lumped HK and T3 together under the title of droids, clearly that is of some significance.

They are droids, they have no presence in the Force, that is why.

The issue there is that the ray shields protecting the droid factory protected it from any fast moving projectiles. This includes ships, and including a stealthed ship plummeting towards the factory with the intent of colliding.

I'd point out that the estimations I made are just that, estimations. But anyway I said they were worth 2-3 originally but decided its possible they were more, but Tunewalker brought up the point that with stealth capabilities they would have been able to avoid many direct fights and get the very best out of their numbers. So 2 to 3 seems more reasonable.

 

However it seems the Imperial Navy consisted mainly of ISDs, not ISD-IIs. So with the ISDs, like the Harrowers, being the mainstay of the Imperial Navy I'd say the era equivalent for the Harrower would be the ISD-I. Still they'll prove a major obstacle for the Supremacy, but this could be overcome if they say acquire a crystal field gravtrap.

Ahhh Ok, the confusion there. You said 200%-300% more (found it ) and that means 300%-400% of the original (IE, 20% more is 120% of the original) or 3-4 times it. But moving on.

That's a good point, but again, I was talking in a prolonged environment, and a fleet that powerful which has stealthed technology, in a Prolonged environment will not get overrun by anything less than a huge fleet, one Warren simply cannot send.