Hello to the SWTOR Story Community. After reviewing the long (and sometimes convoluted) lifespan of the Sith Emperor and posting about my interpretation of it, I happened upon another recent lore topic that appeared just as confusing: Iokath.

Although Iokath is introduced as the end-all be-all of the SCORPIO/Gravestone/EternalFleet origin story, the inclusion of it has seemingly raised more questions than answers. That said, here's my interpretation of everything Iokath.

Original Explanation (A whole lot of inaccurate)

Revised Explanation (Not quite as inaccurate...)

Interesting theories. However I believe you are mistaken in a few points, I'll try my best to explain my own reasoning as you did yours.

 

 

 

Some thousands of before the game, an enlightened species (like the Gree or Rakata) tested the limits of their engineering skills the construction of a dyson sphere: Iokath. As the space structure continued to grow and evolve, and the Iokathi engineers resorted to droid labor, they began to put their skills to something more destructive: war weapons. There are a number of possibilities why... Charles Boyd even suggested the possibility that the Iokathi once waged war with the ancient Gree, but that much is irrelevant.

 

In their preparation for war, the Iokathi engineers built a collection of various superweapons, and with them, control units. Three self-aware artificial intelligences were created alongside the various war machines: ARIES, GEMINI, and SCORPIO. ARIES was created to manage Iokath's planetary defense weapons and droid armies. GEMINI (we know her as GEMINI Prime) was created to control the entirety of the Iokath Fleet, which we know as the Eternal Fleet. And SCORPIO (this one is a bit of a stretch, though I'm pretty confident in it) was created to control the Machine God Pantheon, based off the fact that one of the gods (either Aivela or Esna) is very reminiscent of SCORPIO in her design.

 

 

 

 

Whether the Iokathi were preparing for war or simply being engineers by hoping to perfect their designs, they began weapon tests of various worlds. Among them, Zakuul was invaded, with SCORPIO unleashing the Machine Gods upon the planet to test the weapons and gather design feedback. The whole "gather design feedback and improve" does very much fit in with SCORPIO, whose primary programming has always been self-improvement. Perhaps that programming once extended to the war weapons she managed, like the Pantheon.

 

 

 

Disgraced, but still confident in their beliefs, the Separatists settled on the still primitive Medriaas where they began planning a way to end the destructive ways of the Engineers. This ultimately led to the construction of Zildrog: a machine god of their own that would be extremely effective against both the Engineers' Fleet and Pantheon. The in-game codex tells us that the Pantheon of Six and Zildrog were created by two separate rival groups.

 

 

 

Despite their efforts, one artificial intelligence avoided their sweep: ARIES. Seeing what happened to his "sisters" SCORPIO and GEMINI, ARIES refused to accept deactivation. He regained control of both the droid armies and the machine gods, using them to wipe out the Separatists and all remaining Iokathi.

 

Overall though it is a pretty comprehensive post of the situation, I hope that even though we're moving towards Empire VS Republic once more that we may still get the answers we desperately need about the Iokathi and how they tie in to the rest of the Star Wars EU/Legends lore.

Where does it say anywhere that one side of the Iokath Civil War was pushed off planet? Is this a hypothesis you generated based on the idea of Zildrog/Gravestone being a counter to the Fleet, and Zildrog being on Nathema?

While not directly stated, it's heavily implied that one side of the civil war did leave Iokath (at least temporarily) to construct Zildrog. As another poster pointed out, the Iokathi did not conquer and rule other planets, they simply attacked them for testing purposes. So the presence of the Zildrog console on Nathema can't be because they conquered and ruled the planet, rather, it was a base of operations for one side of the civil war.

There's a codex entry about the pneumatic tube system which indicates that the civil war started when one side ignited the pressured gas within the tube network. (See "Pneumatic Trams" codex entry)

I'll be honest, I did overlook the aforementioned codex entries when I wrote my summary. I was surprised to learn from them that it was the tram incident was the spark of the civil war, and that the conflict lasted for centuries. My compilation definitely needs some hefty revising just off of that.

The other side then used the superweapon, which we know to be the machine gods, which ended the civil war with the extinction of the species. (See "The Six Gods" codex entry, and dialogue by Theron Shan during War for Iokath.)

The end of the Civil War is really where the headache is, in my mind. It is implied that the conflict ended without the total extermination of the Iokathi race, as there were survivors who recognized the destructive capabilities of SCORPIO, GEMINI, and the Fleet, leading to the shutdown and scattering of those weapons. But if the Civil War had already ended by the point, who was responsible for awakening the Gods and finishing off the race's extermination? A lone Iokathi who was bitter and in resentment over the outcome of the war? On the other hand, if the Gods were the actual end of the civil war, and their activation brought extermination both Iokathi factions, then who survived to place SCORPIO and the Fleet in hibernation? That much is a doozy.

The fact that Zildrog/Gravestone serve as a counter to the fleet is probably a bonus aspect to the design.

I don't want to negate your point with just my opinion, but... I have a really hard time believing that Zildrog's uber effectiveness against the fleet is just a bonus of the Gravestone's omnicannon. To me, it seems very evident that Zildrog was designed specifically to counter the fleet.

In researching this reply though, I did make note of Lore Codex entry "History of Iokath: Entry 5" from the bonus mission during chapter 4 of KOTET. This disillusioned blog from a Master Designer who is bored with the running of a planet quickly becoming overpopulated indicates that SCORPIO was in the final cosmetic phases. Perhaps it was this boredom with the way day to day life of the Iokathi had become that prompted the civil war?

So I actually just reviewed those five codex entries. I remembered reading them way back when 5.0 first came out, but I mostly discarded them for their confusion. But reviewing them, especially the fifth entry, really offers a lot more insight into the civil war.

"We have fallen so far from our glory days. We no longer bother to deploy our designs on test environments and instead rely on simulations to predict the outcomes. Foolishness. Only the chaos of an unpredictable environment and its unique subjects can teach us anything. I wonder what would happen if I deployed our designs on Iokath? Would I reveal something new?"

I think I had the Civil War all wrong. It now seems to me that the author of this entry is the one responsible for the conflict. He likely rallies a group of Iokathi "Purists" to try and usurp the pacifist leaders of Iokath and bring back the "glory" days of their past, which involved planetary invasions and species exterminations. And when the purists were ultimately defeated, the author, in his rage and resentment of the persisting pacifist ways, unleashed the Six Gods, who proceeded to finish the race's extermination.

I don't want to negate your point with just my opinion, but... I have a really hard time believing that Zildrog's uber effectiveness against the fleet is just a bonus of the Gravestone's omnicannon. To me, it seems very evident that Zildrog was designed specifically to counter the fleet.

But was it? The Gravestone could counter the fleet, on its own, without the Alliance ever knowing about the Zildrog console. Perhaps one side did build the Gravestone, in order to counter the Fleet used by the other side. Perhaps having the Gravestone as a safety feature in case the Fleet got out of control was an original design feature.

But maybe we are both wrong about Zildrog. Zildrog's programming clearly instructs it to have a hunger for consuming species, which could fit with the goals of the Builders in creating weapons of war. As I suggested in my first reply, having a planetary-species-wiping out-consumption device as a last resort if the invasion with the Fleet and the Six Gods fails to subjugate a planet, makes sense. Its very star warsy after all: vast fleets of star destroyers and TIE Fighters for naval superiority, endless scores of walkers and stormtroopers who may have even be pre-programmed clones at one point for the ground assault, and as a last resort, the Death Star, capable of destroying a planet entirely or even just large sections, as we saw in Rogue One.

But you don't need to consume a planet's inhabitants to counter a fleet. Maybe Zildrog was constructed by one side in the civil war to usurp control of the Gravestone? I just assumed that the construction of the two was connected, but perhaps that assumption is wrong and they were in fact disparate. I just don't know, since the two roles of "fleet counter" and "species extermination" do not depend on each other. Furthermore, the Iokathi viewed themselves as superior, so I can't see them sacrificing themselves in the Crypts of Lifeforce to power Zildrog.

Still, the legends of Zildrog and the Heralds they inspired had to come from somewhere. When you hear the Heralds talk in game, they speak of Zildrog returning and consuming everything in order to cleanse it. Certainly Izax could do it too, after all the ancient Zakuulans called him Devourer. We can infer that if there is some truth to all the myths we heard from native Zakuulans, then all three things must have been used on Zakuul: The Six Gods, the Eternal Fleet, and Zildrog. Maybe "tested" isn't right though, maybe only the Six Gods were tested "officially," but the Gravestone and the Eternal Fleet came later, after they had been memory-wiped and were acting out of some residual traces of their programming that referenced being tested on Zakuul.

In any event, I don't think Tenebrae-Vitiate would have known about the Gravestone per se at the time he used Zildrog to consume life on Medriaas/Nathema. Otherwise, he would not have allowed it to go run off and rust in the swamps of Zakuul, a planet he had yet to visit. He would have kept it safe, under his control as much as possible, as he did with all of his dangerous tools: Dramath's holocron, the Phobis devices, and Zildrog.

It is plausible that Zildrog was an attempt by the Iokathi to start harnessing the power of the Force in their technology. It certainly represents a departure from their previous designs. They could accomplish an awful lot of subjugation and extermination with droids. Maybe Tenebrae-Vitiate pieced it together from other Iokath tech he found, though it still doesn't explain why he didn't keep tabs on the Gravestone.

More questions than answers, I'm afraid.

In any event, I don't think Tenebrae-Vitiate would have known about the Gravestone per se at the time he used Zildrog to consume life on Medriaas/Nathema. Otherwise, he would not have allowed it to go run off and rust in the swamps of Zakuul, a planet he had yet to visit. He would have kept it safe, under his control as much as possible, as he did with all of his dangerous tools: Dramath's holocron, the Phobis devices, and Zildrog.

Am I reading this correctly? Are you under the impression that Vitiate used the computer console to destroy Nathema, rather than the ship itself? I mean, yes, he probably used the console to control or interact with the Gravestone, but the ship portion was very much involved in the culling on Nathema. The console doesn't have many combat capabilities beyond some self-defense mechanisms and empowering individuals. There's no way it could cause the destruction needed without the starship. So Vitiate certainly knew of its existence.

Am I reading this correctly? Are you under the impression that Vitiate used the computer console to destroy Nathema, rather than the ship itself? I mean, yes, he probably used the console to control or interact with the Gravestone, but the ship portion was very much involved in the culling on Nathema. The console doesn't have many combat capabilities beyond some self-defense mechanisms and empowering individuals. There's no way it could cause the destruction needed without the starship. So Vitiate certainly knew of its existence.

My point is, I am wondering if he knew that the device which actually caused the mayhem was a starship. SCORPIO tells us that the Gravestone has a level of artificial intelligence on par with her own. If that is true, it is possible it was scattered to the far reaches of space in the same way that the Fleet and SCORPIO were. It could have been wandering until Tenebrae-Vitiate found and used the Zildrog console. It came in-system, did it’s deed, and then went off. It’s not a great theory, but I just don’t understand why he would not have kept the gravestone in the cavern with Zildrog, safe, instead of rusting in the swamps. So yeah, one idea I had is that T-V didn’t know exactly what rained down death and destruction upon his world when he activated Zildrog. Remember that Valkorion tells the Outlander in chapter 5 of KOTFE that the Gravestone is not entirely what he expected. Almost as if he’s seeing it for the first time, like he assumed it was some type of space based orbital weapon platform instead of a starship.

Another idea I had was that the console was built to usurp control of the gravestone. In other words, Zildrog was not part of the same design specs as the gravestone and the fleet. As opposed to them being designed and built at the same time.

The problem I have is that if Zildrog +/- the Gravestone is purely a construction of the so-called pacifist side, only meant as a counter to the Fleet and the Six Gods, then why does it “hunger to consume civilizations?” That’s not terribly pacifist. Designing it from the get go as the third or final phase in an invasion, like the Death Star as I alluded above, contemporaneously with the six gods and the Fleet makes more sense than the notion that a group of rebelling pacifists made a device that represented exactly what they were rebelling against.

Also, where in game does it say that Zildrog was built by the pacifists in the Iokath civil war and not by the builders?

My point is, I am wondering if he knew that the device which actually caused the mayhem was a starship. SCORPIO tells us that the Gravestone has a level of artificial intelligence on par with her own. If that is true, it is possible it was scattered to the far reaches of space in the same way that the Fleet and SCORPIO were. It could have been wandering until Tenebrae-Vitiate found and used the Zildrog console. It came in-system, did it’s deed, and then went off.

Oh, I get you now. There are definitely a few holes between Vitiate and Zildrog's relationship. It is possible that he moved Zildrog to Zakuul AFTER he took over the planet. Or maybe he had it positioned on Zakuul just days before he sent out Arcann and Thexan to attack the Core Worlds and draw us in, assuming it was his plan all along to position our character against Arcann and the Eternal Fleet. The fact that it's still mostly functional when we find it implies that the crash can't be too long a go, but the beast nests and growing moss also implies it can't be too recent.

Though it is entirely possible that your theory is correct, and the Gravestone did the deed on Nathema, went back into Wild Space unnoticed, and eventually ended up crashing itself.

I guess these details aren't as important as some others, but the Gravestone being exactly where we needed it to be in the Endless Swamp exactly when we needed a ship to escape was a pretty big plot point. The writers built the whole "destiny" sub-plot off of it after all, so it is disappointing that we don't have a definitive answer.

I guess these details aren't as important as some others, but the Gravestone being exactly where we needed it to be in the Endless Swamp exactly when we needed a ship to escape was a pretty big plot point. The writers built the whole "destiny" sub-plot off of it after all, so it is disappointing that we don't have a definitive answer.

Inorite? We hear this myth from Koth, how it "took on the Fleet" and survived. Valkorion tells us it isn't what we expected and in fact downplays its role during our whole transformative hero's journey, if you will. We learn about it being sourced from Iokath. Then we learn it is the hand to Zildrog's head.

So looking over some of the details discussed in this thread, I've created a rough (and hopefully more accurate) outline for Iokath's history.

History

The Iokathi were a race of enlightened engineers based somewhere in Wild Space.

The Iokathi had a fascination with war and superweapons for some reason. It's possible that they once waged war with the Ancient Gree or Rakata [source: Charles Boyd].

In their development and perfection of various superweapons, the Iokathi created a naval fighting force that we know as the Eternal Fleet, controlled by the droid GEMINI--or as we know her, GEMINI Prime [source: ARIES' explanation in KOTET Chapter 4].

The Iokathi continued to create superweapons, eventually setting out to construct "machine gods". At this time, there were competitive sects within the Iokathi species. Two of these rival groups competed to see who could develop the best "machine god"; one group developed the Six, the other developed Zildrog [source: "Zildrog" Codex Entry].

In their competition, both rival groups unleashed their weapons on a test worlds to see whose was most effective. As a result, four planets were devastated and "trillions" of lives were lost [source: "The Six Gods" Codex entry].

Among these test worlds was Zakuul. Much of Zakuul's tribal population was devastated by the superweapons' rampage, but those who survived began to worship the droids as destructive deities. There was also discrepancy between Izax and Zildrog, given that both possessed flight, an omnicanon, and ramblings of destruction. Because of this controversy, Zakuulans associated Izax and Zildrog as one in the same [source: "Zildrog" Codex entry].

Eventually, the Iokathi ceased their production of superweapons to engage in a more ambitious project: Iokath itself. They took on the prospect of creating a world out of nothing, likely using their machines like the Eternal Fleet and droids to construct the Dyson sphere around a small star. Designed as an adaptable and unpenetrable world, Iokath ushered in an era of peace for the Iokathi [source: "History of Iokath: Entry 4" Codex entry].

As time passed, the Iokathi continued to improve and expand Iokath, gradually declining in their development and tests of superweapons. Eventually, the Iokathi used virtual simulations to test their weapons, rather than live-fire exercises on the worlds of other species [source: "History of Iokath: Entry 5" Codex entry].

The Iokathi created ARIES to manage the custodian droid labor force on Iokath, as well as SCORPIO to analyze the ever-expanding Iokath and offer data on how to best improve the world [source: SCORPIO's declaration of her primary function to be improvement and evolution].

With the peace and settlement offered by Iokath, designs simply became less exciting and innovative. Some of the Iokathi recognized this, and yearned for the glory days of their past. Among these Iokath "Purists" was the Master Designer, Vel Jyc Boer [source: "History of Iokath: Entry 5" Codex entry].

Boer and other Purists theorized that they could invoke their species' sense of innovation if they turned their technology on their own people. They started this process by sabotaging Iokath's pneumatic tram system, killing thousands and sparking the Iokath Civil War [source: "Pneumatic Trams" codex entry].

In the midst of the conflict, the Purists unleashed SCORPIO, GEMINI, and the Eternal Fleet. But the Fleet did not just target Iokath; it targeted Wild Space as a whole. Iokathi pacifists were forced to use Zildrog and its omnicanon to confront and defeat the fleet over various planets, one of which was Zakuul. Zakuulans of the time witnessed Zildrog's victory over the Fleet, and discerned their legends from that battle [source: "The Gravestone" codex entry].

With the Gravestone, much of the Eternal Fleet was destroyed. The portion of the Fleet that attacked Iokath was deactivated with a powerful signal scrambler [source: The presence of the signal that deactivates the Fleet in the beginning of the Iokath planetary story].

Without the Eternal Fleet, the Iokath Purists were eventually defeated. In an attempt to prevent such mindless destruction from happening again, the Iokath Pacifists wiped the memories of weapons used in the war, including SCORPIO, GEMINI, and Zildrog. Furthermore, SCORPIO, the Fleet, and Zildrog were all locked away in various portions of Wild Space and the Unknown Regions, though each was hidden with various control mechanisms. SCORPIO was left with her restraining codes, the Fleet with left with the control unit of GEMINI, and Zildrog was left with its command console [source: SCORPIO's revelation at the end of KOTET Chapter 4].

Seeing Iokath's greatest inventions locked away, the remaining Purists grew angry. In a last ditch attempt to bring back the glory days of the species, one Iokathi--likely Boer--took possession of the superweapon command throne on Iokath. At the cost of his life, he activated the Six machine Gods, who rampaged across Iokath and exterminated the species [source: Theron's explanation upon finding the dead Iokathi on the command throne in the Iokath planetary arc].

The machine Gods eventually ended their rampage and returned to their slumber. With the Six deactivated, only ARIES remained, with him becoming the last self-conscious artificial intelligence on Iokath [source: SCORPIO's revelation at the end of KOTET Chapter 4].

Left alone, ARIES began attracting visitors to Iokath to determine if anyone was worthy to inherit Iokath. Seeing the same irrationality in all organics he met, ARIES was forced to kill them. Over time, as he was forced to kill more and more organics, ARIES gradually weaponized the custodian and caretaker droids of Iokath, turning all of them into weapons [source: "Droids of Iokath" codex entry].

Zildrog (or its command console at least) was discovered by Tenebrae on Nathema. Tenebrae used the console to command Zildrog to massacre much of the population of Nathema, with Zildrog eventually causing enough death that Tenebrae could enact a Force ritual that devastated the planet. Zildrog itself later crashed in the Swamps of Zakuul, but for what reason is unknown [source: "Zildrog" codex entry].

SCORPIO was eventually discovered by the Star Cabal, which used her restraining codes to control her. They installed her into the planetary network of Belsavis so that she would protect the secrets they kept on the world [source: Imperial Agent class story on Belsavis and SCORPIO's companion conversations].

GEMINI and the Eternal Fleet were eventually discovered by Valkorion. Valkorion learned of the legends of the Fleet and Gravestone from Zakuulans, and had his Force-user servants--the Scions--use their visions to discern the Fleet's location. Although they discovered the fleet, the Zakuulans could not control it through GEMINI. They instead captured GEMINI and constructed replica Captains from her, though the Captains were programmed to obey orders. Zakuulans constructed the hyperwave relay station to connect and command the Captains, eventually linking the station to the Eternal Throne [source: KOTFE Chapter 14].

That is a pretty comprehensive post, although I'm still not sure whether or not Zildrog was found on Nathema. He was located in an Emperor's Vault so perhaps Tenebrae merely moved him there for sake keeping, regardless of that your post is pretty comprehensive and thought it and I appreciate you putting the sources behind it. Cheers:D

Yeah, like we agreed before, Zildrog/Gravestone is a big ol' anomaly. Why was the console on Nathema? How did the ship get into the Zakuul swamps? Why was Zildrog's consciousness built into a separate console instead of being part of the ship itself? Too many questions.

My personal belief remains that the Zildrog console was at least on Nathema. There is the possibility that Nathema was one of the worlds conquered with the Eternal Fleet. One of the "History of Iokath" entries mentions the Iokathi using their war weapons to conquer a planet that contained underground vaults filled with cultural artifacts.

A planet with vast underground vaults and cultural artifacts? Hmmm....

It's possible that this planet was Medriaas prior to the settlement of the Sith species. Perhaps, after the civil war, the Iokathi returned and chose to hide Zildrog there, believing it would be beyond the reach of anyone in an underground vault. And then, millennia later, some Sith of the Old Sith Empire settled and lived there for generations, until Tenebrae was born. In exploring Medriaas for the secrets of the Sith, Tenebrae instead happened upon the vault that the Zildrog console rested in. Maybe the starship was hidden there too, or maybe it was just the console, which Tenebrae used to summon the ship.

Again, all of that is really speculation and has too many jumps, stretches, and assumptions to include in the more factual post above. Though I'd love to hear your elaboration on some of the other unknowns.

Yeah, like we agreed before, Zildrog/Gravestone is a big ol' anomaly. Why was the console on Nathema? How did the ship get into the Zakuul swamps? Why was Zildrog's consciousness built into a separate console instead of being part of the ship itself? Too many questions.

 

My personal belief remains that the Zildrog console was at least on Nathema. There is the possibility that Nathema was one of the worlds conquered with the Eternal Fleet. One of the "History of Iokath" entries mentions the Iokathi using their war weapons to conquer a planet that contained underground vaults filled with cultural artifacts.

 

A planet with vast underground vaults and cultural artifacts? Hmmm....

 

It's possible that this planet was Medriaas prior to the settlement of the Sith species. Perhaps, after the civil war, the Iokathi returned and chose to hide Zildrog there, believing it would be beyond the reach of anyone in an underground vault. And then, millennia later, some Sith of the Old Sith Empire settled and lived there for generations, until Tenebrae was born. In exploring Medriaas for the secrets of the Sith, Tenebrae instead happened upon the vault that the Zildrog console rested in. Maybe the starship was hidden there too, or maybe it was just the console, which Tenebrae used to summon the ship.

 

Again, all of that is really speculation and has too many jumps, stretches, and assumptions to include in the more factual post above. Though I'd love to hear your elaboration on some of the other unknowns.

Truth be told I can't pierce together anything together . I remember how much of a reputation of scholar Tenebrae had but I can't remember any source stating whether or not he ever left Nathema on his researchs, truth be told your explanation isn't that bad either. Perhaps the Iokathi left the Gravestone to drift on space and eventually it crash-landed on Zakuul or perhaps they left it there on purporse. Now that I think of it if their purpose was to get rid of their superweapons the console and gravestone being separate makes more sense. Perhaps the Iokathi picked apart the two and sealed them away in 2 different locations.

And I suppose it is possible the Iokathi settled on Medriaas centuries or even millennia before the Sith. The problem is the location, I think Nathema is supposed to be located around the Sith Space. While the Iokathi seem to be based off Wild Space and the unknown regions, if we go by the galaxy map in the game anyhow. I remember a few months ago Charles said the details of how Tenebrae acquired Zildrog would eventually be disclosed, so hopefully we'll get that answer as I think it would help piercing together the mystery.

EDIT: So I search Wookieepedia for Nathema's location and apparently the system Nathema is located is indeed on Wild Space. So perhaps it was part of the Iokathi's civlization at some point.

The first point I want to bring up, after that awesome re-write, is to discuss the nature of the Gemini droids. A simple iokath caretaker droid, the one with the vertically linear blue eye was able to undue all of SCORPIO's self-awareness programming with a simple reset and bring the captains back under Vaylin's control. This was the head she ripped off when they were at the fleet control spire on Iokath, prior to ARIES' defeat. These droids were never involved with Zakuul engineers directly until that point in time, yet they were still able to reset the GEMINI Captains to their default state. The Iokath Caretaker droid recognized a bug in the program of the captains, a variance from the default state, and was able to reset ALL of them by using the hyperwave relay connection of the Throne. That suggests to me that the Gemini Captains were not a construct of Valkorion or the Zakuulans, but instead part of the original design. Its a subtle point, but one which does affect your narrative some.

Now, how Valkorion knew to grab GEMINI Prime is yet another plot hole. Senya tells the Alliance in KOTFE Ch 14 that Darvannis was one of the first worlds they conquered in the war, presumably referring to Arcann's war after Valkorion's death, not the "testing of strength" that Valkorion sent his sons to do prior to us encountering them on Marr's flagship in Ch. 1. Why Arcann chose Darvannis to build the factory I don't know, maybe some residual traces of the dark side of the Force from DM Styrak. But he clearly had the fleet before that point, and its clearly under control of the Eternal Throne, so Valkorion must have already had GEMINI Prime somewhere when he meets the Outlander. Maybe because Valkorion didn't have access to Iokath, he (or one of his associates) had to construct Prime from scratch, to control the other droids, or modify one of the Captains to be Prime. Perhaps he called it Prime to mislead us and his empire into thinking he (Valkorion) was the one responsible for everything. Or, maybe Prime was stored in Fleet ship #0001 all along and was part of the original Iokath design.

Regarding your other points, I really like your idea that the planet mentioned in that History of Iokath codex entry might have been Medriaas or prehistoric Nathema.

There is the possibility that Nathema was one of the worlds conquered with the Eternal Fleet. One of the "History of Iokath" entries mentions the Iokathi using their war weapons to conquer a planet that contained underground vaults filled with cultural artifacts.

Yeah, I think you may be on to something there.

The problem is the location, I think Nathema is supposed to be located around the Sith Space. While the Iokathi seem to be based off Wild Space and the unknown regions, if we go by the galaxy map in the game anyhow. I remember a few months ago Charles said the details of how Tenebrae acquired Zildrog would eventually be disclosed, so hopefully we'll get that answer as I think it would help piercing together the mystery.

EDIT: So I search Wookieepedia for Nathema's location and apparently the system Nathema is located is indeed on Wild Space. So perhaps it was part of the Iokathi's civlization at some point.

Yeah, but someone could have edited the Wookieepedia entry to retcon all this. This is all Legends continuity anyway so Disney will never say anything about it, but the dev team could say for certain where it is. I never read the Revan novel so I can't say if its better described there. The SW galactic map has changed several times, especially since The Force Awakens. I had a long talk with Charles at the SW Celebration cantina about Ach-To and its relation to Tython, Ossus, and other planets that for so long had been considered Jedi homeworlds in the EU. Canonically, the existence of Temples on multiple worlds like Jedha and Lothal has been established. But we're certainly meant to think, after TFA, that Ach-To is the homeworld, the location of the first temple, and TLJ does nothing to negate that. On the map R2 and BB-8 reconstruct, that would put Ach-To somewhere in wild space. My point is that it feels like the whole SW Galactic map has been completely re-written. Going back to our game, on the Chiss Copero Holomap, Nathema doesn't look to be anywhere near Wild Space. In fact, its why everyone thought Oricon was the planet of Zildrog's location prior to the reveal.

That being said, I don't see a specific reason why the ancient Iokath builders couldn't have tried testing their designs on the farthest reaches of the galaxy.

My last point is about the timing. Your write up makes an argument that the Fleet predates the Six Gods, but I'm not sure that's a correct assumption. ARIES conveniently neglects to mention the six gods and he seems to have a pretty handy Superweapon right under his proverbial nose without needing to wake up the Six Gods. The Six Gods have Zakuulan names, not greek names, but that doesn't imply they don't have code names from their original designers. In fact, during the GOTM operation, you never hear them call anyone by name, except Izax. Scyva only refers to Esne and Aveila as the daughters of passion and envy, and her Son of Shadow and Son of Rage, but never by their Zakuulan names. NAHUT calls her "Origin-Mother," not Scyva. Scyva does however call Izax by his name, I think. That could be a slip up on the part of the Devs, or it could be intentional, like a sign of deference, but if that were the case its inconsistent with the other children. But when Tyth awakens you don't hear him mention anything about any of the other non-Six droids on the planet, let alone ARIES. I guess it makes more sense to think that the Fleet predates the design of Zildrog and the Six. Either Zildrog or the Six must be more efficient at planetary invasion and destruction than the fleet is. Zildrog/Gravestone is more powerful than the Fleet, after all it can destroy it in one shot, suggesting iterative improvements over the Fleet's design. SCORPIO talking about the Gravestone's intelligence being equal to her own might still be true even if the gravestone was more advanced than she was at the time, because of her self-improvement directive. I still think if I was needing to design a comprehensive invasion weapon, I'd probably want elements of all three designs (the hive mind automated Fleet, the droid ground invasion force, and the failsafe weapon capable of destroying all life), so I can't quite dismiss the notion that all three were contemporaneously designed.

That suggests to me that the Gemini Captains were not a construct of Valkorion or the Zakuulans, but instead part of the original design. Its a subtle point, but one which does affect your narrative some.

The GEMINI Captains and GEMINI Prime ordeal is definitely confusing, I admit. In KOTFE, we're led to believe that Zakuulans replicated the Captains from the Prime, but conversations with ARIES and the Iokath droid in KOTET imply that the Captains came from Iokath. The Prime does say that she and SCORPIO both had "One source: The Luminous Engine" (aka the Iokath engineers) while "The Captains were born of me".

So there's a lot of questions from that. Why would the Iokathi need the Prime to replicate their own technology? Why did Zakuul keep the Prime around if they already had access to the Captains? Why did Arcann store the Prime on Darvannis, a planet that they had only conquered recently, instead of somewhere closer to Zakuul?

If I had to put speculation around it, my guess would be that GEMINI Prime was actually the commander for the Fleet, even when it was under Iokathi control. Like SCYVA is to the Six Gods, the Prime acted as the control unit to link all the captains together and distribute orders. In fact, KOTFE Chapter 15 seems to support this explanation, as it claims that plugging the Prime into one of the warships would allow her to take command over the entire fleet, superseding even the authority of the Eternal Throne. But again, that's more speculation than anything.

Regarding your other points, I really like your idea that the planet mentioned in that History of Iokath codex entry might have been Medriaas or prehistoric Nathema.

Yeah, I happened across the codex entry when I was reviewing information for this thread. Obviously, when KOTET first came around, it was such a throwaway description. But now, after a lot more has become clear about Iokath, it's interesting to think that the Devs always intended for that Codex to mean something. If, in fact, this codex entry was always meant to hint at Nathema, I do have to give the Devs some credit. That would be intense and subtle foreshadowing.

My last point is about the timing. Your write up makes an argument that the Fleet predates the Six Gods, but I'm not sure that's a correct assumption.

The timing of when each of the superweapons were created isn't directly stated. We know three things for certain. One: Zildrog, the Fleet, the Six, and any of the other mobile superweapons all predated Iokath itself. Two: Zildrog and the Six were built simultaneously as rival projects. And three: SCORPIO was designed after the creation of Iokath.

Anything beyond those details is up to interpretation. One theory would suggest that Zildrog and the Six were created after the fleet, considering how Zildrog could rip apart the Fleet with its omnicannon. Though another theory would suggest that the Fleet's construction actually came after the Gods and was closer to Iokath's construction, given that the GEMINI Droids and SCORPIO share a lot of characteristics, and SCORPIO didn't come about until after Iokath. We can't say for sure.

 

 

Yeah, but someone could have edited the Wookieepedia entry to retcon all this. This is all Legends continuity anyway so Disney will never say anything about it, but the dev team could say for certain where it is. I never read the Revan novel so I can't say if its better described there.

Yeah but

Yeah but

mentions it is in that sector, which apparently Wookieepedia classifies it as "Wild Space". Alongside a few other Sith Worlds, I'm not an expert on the geography of Star Wars but it could explain a lot of things. As far as Disney is concerned, yeah, it's legends so as far as "continuity" is concerned canon has no say on it. SWTOR shouldn't follow canon's geography and vice-versa.

Chorlian sector. I'm replaying KOTET to try and capture some of this lore again and get the citations. It just doesn't match up with the Copero holo map and classifying it as "Outer Rim" doesn't fit either based on all the other galactic maps in Legends.

The timing of when each of the superweapons were created isn't directly stated.

Going back to Iokath History Entry Three, the entry mentions the vast underground vault constructed by the "now-extinct natives." Since the natives of Medriaas didn't become extinct until after Tenebrae-Vitiate used Zildrog and the Ritual, the planet described probably isn't Nathema. Furthermore, the codex entry says

We will leave the vault to be discovered by whatever life emerges on the test environment in future epochs.

This suggests to me that the Builders wouldn't leave equipment on test environments. This codex entry does, however, seem to indicate that the planet described was the first successful testing ground for their comprehensive planetary invasion platform:

a fully-integrated and optimized planetary assault platform suitable to any environment or resistance pattern

As it says in the codex entry. As such, Kataret's right that the design of many of the superweapons predate Iokath. But what constitutes a comprehensive platform? The Fleet alone? The Six Gods alone? Zildrog/Gravestone alone? Any combo of those? The Fleet could perform planetary subjugation by itself -- we see the destruction it can cause first hand on Voss during KOTET Ch. 1, but there are discussions/holonet reports of its destructive capabilities in several other chapters (KOTET 6, KOTFE 10, etc). But, the codex entry for the Six Gods shows they're just as capable of death on a scale of trillions too, leaving us no closer to discerning which came first. And, of course, we know what Zildrog can do.

ARIES is aware of the original paradigm of "Conduct wargames, offer reparations", which predates Iokath. He also is well aware of the GEMINI droids' original programming, since he says SCORPIO corrupted it. Finally, he is aware of Zakuul's place in the litany of planets tested. This means ARIES' construction predates the construction of Iokath. Codex Entry 5 by Boer does seem to indicate SCORPIO herself wasn't designed until AFTER Iokath was constructed. Why did she get a Greek name if she was a much later design? Was it Boer harkening back to the good ole' days of Iokathi designs when men were men and droids were machine gods? At least, that might explain why GEMINI Prime views SCORPIO as from the one source. ARIES laments much of SCORPIO's current programming. Is it envy of a more advanced design (post creation of Iokath, where he was pre-Iokath), or perhaps its because of everything she has done to improve herself in the centuries out on her own?

History of Iokath Entry Three also states

Perhaps they [the life that emerges on the test environment] will be able to explain their predecessors when we return to test them

This sentence along with History of Iokath Codex Entry One suggests that test environments are considered for testing again after appropriate time frames.

So, to summarize: there is evidence that ARIES, the GEMINI droids + the Fleet, the Six Gods, and Zildrog were designed prior to Iokath's construction, but the exact order is unclear. There is speculation that the Six Gods and Zildrog were created contemporaneously by rival groups, and since they lack Greek names probably were designed at a different time than the Fleet and the GEMINI droids. There was an ultimate planetary invasion platform that was designed by the "greatest master designer" at the time and successfully tested, prior to the construction of Iokath. Finally, Zakuul was tested prior to Iokath's construction, and that test is the basis for the Zakuulan mythology.

Therefore I think its likely that the Six Gods were tested on Zakuul earlier in its history, creating the initial pantheon mythology, and the encounter between the Fleet and the Gravestone, creating its mythology, occurred much later. Lead Analyst Udo Lin Xior is the author of History codex entry 3, and they refer to working with the "greatest master designer in [their] long history." I presumed that the title of Master Designer is a hierarchical one, as in the Master Designer oversees the subordinates beneath them. If that's true, then the supposition that the Six Gods were the first test which involved Zakuul made sense. But, perhaps Master Designer is merely a title, in the same way that there are many Jedi Masters, but only some are on the Council, and there is one Grand Master. That could mean that Lead Analyst Xior and their "master designer" belong to the "winning group" in this rival competition, following the successful deployment of the design on the planet described in the codex entry. The Six Gods codex entry indicates that they were tested on several worlds, presumably during this competition, and Zakuul must have been one of them.

The only way that the Fleet and the Gravestone's battle over Zakuul could be contemporaneous with the Six Gods is if the rival groups competed on the same world, and that there were THREE separate groups: one that constructed the Fleet and the GEMINI droids, one that made the Six Gods, and one that made Zildrog and the Gravestone. Yet the codex entry 3 implies only one design was actually tested on the planet described, so this makes less sense. ARIES shares a Greek name with the GEMINI droids, and the Six Gods do not, implying that the Fleet was probably before the competition. Furthermore, the mythology of the Six Gods, and the Fleet, shows evolution in Zakuulan understanding … They viewed the Six Gods as supernatural deities, but they understood that the Gravestone and the Fleet were starships. At least, the stories Koth is aware of indicate an understanding that they are spaceships. For all those reasons, I think the Six Gods were the only actual time Zakuul was officially tested by the Iokathi, and it was during the competition, and the comprehensive planetary invasion platform described in the codex entry is most likely the Six Gods, and not the Fleet or Zildrog. Obviously when a player is going through the KOTET story they are led to believe the codex entry refers to the Fleet, but with the benefit of hindsight it was probably the Six Gods.

We know from things Valkorion tells us in KOTET 8/9 that the Fleet's primal function, of wonton destruction, was only brought under control when he made the Eternal Throne. Therefore, I think more likely than the idea that the Fleet, the Gods, and Zildrog/Gravestone are contemporaneous, is that after the Iokathi civil war, when the Fleet and Gravestone were aimlessly wandering Wild Space with locked memory cores, they happened to engage each other over Zakuul, perhaps because some residual data was left in their memory banks, and their battle was the basis for that myth. It is possible that the battle forming the basis of the mythology occurred during the civil war, but that would mean that the Gravestone was scuttled by one side before the end of the war, never to be used again. I don't think they would have given up their only defense against the Fleet.

What do you think?

Whoa, whoa.

I played all the content and really devoured the story. These posts did help to piece Iokath together for me more but I would like to clarify a few things.

1. Has there been a major retcon on the destruction of Nathema? Was Vitiate's ritual not the sole cause of the consumption of all life on the planet? Are we now saying ZIldrog was part of this?

2. How do we know Zildrog was on Nathema prior to its destruction? I always assumed it was a later discovery by the Emperor hundreds of years following the establishment of the reconstituted Sith Empire. A tool squirreled way.

3. If Zildrog was conclusively on Nathema prior to its destruction, could Vitiate have discovered it and thus learned of the location of the Eternal Fleet from Zildrog? If not the location, then all things of interest in that section of Wild Space?

1. Has there been a major retcon on the destruction of Nathema? Was Vitiate's ritual not the sole cause of the consumption of all life on the planet? Are we now saying ZIldrog was part of this?

Yes, Zildrog is a part of it. But he merely consumed the life of the planet while Tenebrae consumed the force.

2. How do we know Zildrog was on Nathema prior to its destruction? I always assumed it was a later discovery by the Emperor hundreds of years following the establishment of the reconstituted Sith Empire. A tool squirreled way.

We don't, we definitely know he found it before the establishment of the reconstituted SIth Empire as he used it on the Nathema ritual, although I think it's very possible he might've not founded on Nathema and merely moved it to one of his vaults. Unless that specific Vault was built around Zildrog and not for Zildrog.

3. If Zildrog was conclusively on Nathema prior to its destruction, could Vitiate have discovered it and thus learned of the location of the Eternal Fleet from Zildrog? If not the location, then all things of interest in that section of Wild Space?

I think it should be clarified Disney reboot canon has no place in the Old Republic. It was based on the original canon as we all well know, so I am not sure how anything produced by Disney is relevant. We work with the Universe as it was always understood. The Essential Atlas being a key reference tool.

This sounds like a mess and I am putting this one on the Bioware team. Unless they plan on some major revelations about Vitiate traveling the galaxy around the time of the Great Galactic War, this makes minimal sense. It would also be contrary to the Tales of Jedi Comics. Sadow vs. Kressh was always about whether to leave the Caldera to explore new worlds to conquer.

Nathema was always was described as a quiet, Sith agrarian world, you can't just retcon it to Wild Space. It destroys everything we understand about the Sith Empire, Wild Space and the Great Galactic War. Sith Worlds were in the Stygian Caldera on the opposite side of the Galaxy from Wild Space. The Sith clearly did not leave the Calderra until the rule of Naga Sadow and the Great Hyperspace War did not last very long. Not enough time for Vitiate to wander the galaxy, stumble into Wild Space, find Zildrog and bring him back to Nathema.

It makes almost as little sense as the Iokath Creators dropping it on Nathema, though I see it being the only way to reconcile this. The creators must not have confined their experiments to the worlds of Wild Space, but had a vast domain. We are told they existed prior to the Manderon Period in 7,000 BBY.

I see two ways to reconcile this:

1. The Iokath rose and fell after the fall of the Rakata. The Rakata were too vicious to have not attacked Iokath and their territory was the majority of the galaxy, so these two forces could not have come into contact with each other.

AND

2. The Iokath would need to have fallen by the time the Republic began to really spread out. But that would have been closer to 15,000 BBY.

OR

3. Iokath creators specifically chose to avoid the Galactic Republic (keeping in the assumed timeline) and their territory extended from Wild Space, going west and north through the unknown regions and remaining rimward and eventually reached Sith Space. Perhaps Nathema was one of the most remote planets on their frontier and thus chosen to drop off Zildrog? If Vitiate the scholar and Lord of Nathema discovered the Dark Sanctuary and with it the maps and history of Iokath (but perhaps not the location of the sphere itself), he could have used that to discover the Chiss and explore the Unknown Regions and Wild Space?

We need to be realistic. The Republic took ages to chart the galaxy. Exploration was perilous. For a lone Sith to just stumble around and discover all this stuff without bumping into the Republic...it just doesn't work. I see option 3, being that Zildrog was dropped on Nathema and discovered by Vitiate millennia later...that is the only way this works without rebooting massive amounts of lore, which I am absolutely opposed to. If we go that route, these forums are pointless as understanding anything is pointless as it will all get tossed aside eventually when content creators get too lazy to do any research on the subject in which they create content.

If Boyd pulls a Disney and starts massive retconning stuff to conform to their creative impulses, then I am done with SWTOR.

1. Has there been a major retcon on the destruction of Nathema? Was Vitiate's ritual not the sole cause of the consumption of all life on the planet? Are we now saying ZIldrog was part of this?

We aren't saying it, Charles Boyd did. Here.

If Boyd pulls a Disney and starts massive retconning stuff to conform to their creative impulses, then I am done with SWTOR.

It isn't a total retcon. There is precedent for this. At least, precedent from an in game event revelation perspective as opposed to actual historical chronology. A certain number of deaths in the Republic-Empire Coalition against the Revanites on Yavin 4 had to occur for the Sacrificial Sphere to work and restore corporeal form to Vitiate. Similarly, a certain number of deaths caused by the Republic military action as well as the mass-possessions of the native Ziost populace were necessary to strengthen Vitiate, prior to his sending his twin sons, as Valkorion, to the larger galaxy. So, it isn't implausible that Tenebrae, in his effort to take over the Sith in the wake of Naga Sadow's defeat, studied the rituals allowing him to consume the Force essence, and in uncovering Zildrog, found the means by which he could fuel his ritual.

I agree with you though, how Zildrog ended up on Medriaas/Nathema is a mystery, with the idea that Iokath's builders purposefully left it on the planet being the least plausible idea.

I've got to thank you all for the lovely thread. I've had some mind to include worlds that have been testing polygons in my personal headcanon stories and the info is invaluable.

A few things I wanted to chime in regarding the Machine Gods:

1. In the Flashpoint Zildrog is shown to use living beings (not nessesserily Force sensitive) as fuel. This is under control of Zildrog cult, and specifically Vinn and Gemini 16, who obviously did not care whom they used to acivate Zildrog. Is it possible that at some point in the past the system worked a littke bit differently? With Central Commander, then those who occupied Thrones, then everything else afected by system

2. Are we sure there were only 4 worlds that have been affected by the Iokathian war games? (this is expecially relevant to me as I was planning to include at least 7). Also, in the previous posts there is a mention that the worlds were monitored in case they 'upgrade' after being participants to become a worthy target in the future - would those have remained of note even in the more 'pacifistic' era of Iokath?

3. Can we really judge the age of ARIES, SCORPIO, the Machine Gods by the knowledge they have? All it would take for them to get the knowledge if dowloading it from a databank that already has the information, and those could have been moved to Iokath long before the creation of any abovementioned entitites