With apologies for (yet another) 5.10 PvP thread (I know there are some here who will pounce on that ), I felt it was necessary to cogently lay out the argument for why bolster to 258 is the only legitimate solution to the PvP gearing issues of 5.10 (discussed below) separately from arguments about other related issues. But in doing so, I felt it was important to use the devs own words and descriptions of their rationale to support the case – leaving out all speculative bases and just focusing on what the devs themselves have communicated. So using the

Why Is There Now a Master Mode (MM) Gods From the Machine (GFTM) Operation?

Because Keith wanted to have one. (~14:40). It’s really that simple. I understand that answer is circular, and begs many more questions, but that's the answer we were given -- and the purpose of this post is to just rely on the devs own words.

Why Is There a New Gear Tier?

Because of the new difficulty of the MM content, which is now scaled to 248 augs, with at least 252 gear required for each boss (~18:40), a new gear tier was needed. The only content in the game that will require this gear is the MM GFTM content. As such, if you are an exclusively PvE player who doesn’t intend to do this OP on MM, you can avoid dealing with this gear tier entirely (more on that below)

Crafting Is the Fastest Way to Get This New Gear Tier, But…

Crafting is not only the fastest source, but it’s also the "best source" for gearing because you will get a BoE version of the Tier 5 gear (~27:30). However, the devs have "tied crafting into the MM Operation directly" (~27:20), meaning that:

Crafting Components for Tier 5 Gear Only Come From the GFTM Bosses

The devs explained that the crafting components to make the Tier 5 gear only comes from GFTM bosses (~30:20). You specifically cannot obtain these components from any other content in the game, PvP or otherwise.

PvP Is a "Somewhat Ludicrous and Limited Way" to Earn Tier 5 Gear

A path to gearing in 5.10 is by collecting and exchanging unassembled components (UCs) for masterwork shards and selling them to a reputation vendor. However, if you choose this approach, you are taking the "ludicrous and limited" way to gearing due to a number of throttles introduced by the devs to specifically prevent this from be a faster way to gearing than MM GFTM (~29:40). I will not rehash all of the throttles here, though Dulfy lays this out well (as usual). Again, as discussed, the devs want the MM GFTM bosses to be the fastest way to gearing.

Though Not Ludicrous as PvP, Other Gearing Options Are Intentionally Slower Than MM GFTM Ops

This should be no surprise. The gear is specifically intended for people completing GFTM in MM and no one else. In addition, gear obtained this way is BoP. Still, the key here is that the gear can be obtained in other ways besides the GFTM Ops, but these modes (other than the “somewhat ludicrous” PvP method) are all PvE modes. In addition, the masterwork shards vendor has a reputation requirement (28:50) which serves as additional gatekeeping – reputation which seems to be only earned by completing the weekly Ossus missions (meaning that PvPer will likely have to do PvE content as well to get gear via UCs).

CONCLUSIONS WHICH FLOW FROM THE DEVS' STATEMENTS

With Bolster Set to 248, PvPers of All Levels (Hardcore, Casual, Regs, Ranked) Will Need Tier 5 Gear

This is really an inescapable conclusion of the devs design choices (not just starting with 5.10). Tier 5 gear will find its way into PvP, both in ranked and in unranked, making this gear that was only intended for GFTM MM Ops a factor (I believe unintentionally) in PvP.

This isn’t to say there is no upside to adding a gearing grind to PvP (I don’t share this view, but I can understand why some PvPers would want to have some gear to strive for). But, as implemented, this gear really can’t be earned through PvP other than through “ludicrous” methods that still also require PvE (e.g. at least for reputation and max possible shards).

Furthermore, unlike casual PvE, casual PvPers cannot avoid confronting this gear. This means that even casual PvPers will have to grind out this gear or be destroyed (both in regs and ranked), needlessly exacerbating an already broken PvP gearing system for casual players.

PvErs (Other than MM Ops) Will Be Able to Avoid This Tier Entirely, PvPers Will Not

At a minimum, these PvErs will be able to earn this gear slowly, or just skip it altogether without any effect on their preferred style of play. PvPers will not have this option (again, this isn't really about whether it's good or bad to be exclusively PvE or PvP, it's about not having the option to skip this tier of gear where it's not designed for the content you choose to play).

It's also important to note that this isn't an opinion about the merits of having this new tier of gear at all, or about the methods available for attaining the gear (I leave it to others to say how they feel about the methods themselves). That's simply NOT the issue. The issue is that casual PvPers cannot avoid having to deal with this tier of gear, which was not at all intended (by the devs own words) for PvP, and so they must ludicrously grind for it to be able to continue to enjoy casual PvP unless the following happens:

Bolster to BiS (258) Is the Best Solution, Given the Devs Stated Goals

As discussed, there may be some PvPers who want an additional gear grind. And frankly, if PvP was a “non-ludicrous,” alternate route to gearing, this would be okay. Even as a casual, there is at least the potential to slowly earn the gear even when getting stomped early on. However, given the design choices made for this tier of gear, and weighing the pros and cons, the most fair option – and the one most consistent with the devs objectives – is to bolster to 258 in all PvP levels. Ranked, elite players will be unaffected (assuming bolster is properly implemented, and also accounts for min/max prefs, etc.) in that they will be where they currently are: fully-geared at BiS. Casual PvPers will not be stomped and discouraged and will not have to grind PvE in order to gear. They can PvP, without concern for gear, and bypass this tier that's not intended for PvP content, just like the PvE players can. Nobody loses. Any other approach really doesn’t make sense given the above.

Tl;dr -- devs should bolster PvP to 258 because: just read the orange headings...

That is very well written.

I also think Bolster should be made 258 if they aren’t going to ease up the grind for pvpers to gear up as fast as MM players.

Even if they don’t fully make it 258, they should make it higher than 248. They could make it 252 or 256 and that would still allow for grind.

Either way, Bioware have created this situation by removing pvp gear in 5.0 and will exacerbate it if they only make Bolster 248.

A good argument, in general.

Why Is There Now a Master Mode (MM) Gods From the Machine (GFTM) Operation?

Because Keith wanted to have one. (~14:40). It’s really that simple. I understand that answer is circular, and begs many more questions, but that's the answer we were given -- and the purpose of this post is to just rely on the devs own words.

It isn't *circular*. Circular would be "they are adding one because they are adding one." What we have is "They are adding one because Keith wants them to add one."

It's *inadequate* as an explanation because there's no explanation of why Keith wants it, and consequently no way to assess the reason for adding it. I would also suggest that the mere fact of adding MMGFTM is *almost* neither here nor there. The problem arises from the materials being (mostly) tied to beating MMGFTM, and I have no interest in getting involved in that.

What concerns me isn't, in the initial analysis, the difficulty or inconvenience associated with getting T5 gear, but what they propose that the next step will be, and here we touch on the real problem with the Command Rank system - how do you raise the level cap once Command ranks are in place? In essence, they've taken a gear progression ladder game and removed the wall that the ladder leans against. (That wall is "we can always raise the level cap and add a new gear tier/system at the new cap". It isn't there any more.)

Bolster to BiS (258) Is the Best Solution, Given the Devs Stated Goals

As discussed, there may be some PvPers who want an additional gear grind. And frankly, if PvP was a “non-ludicrous,” alternate route to gearing, this would be okay. Even as a casual, there is at least the potential to slowly earn the gear even when getting stomped early on. However, given the design choices made for this tier of gear, and weighing the pros and cons, the most fair option – and the one most consistent with the devs objectives – is to bolster to 258 in all PvP levels. Ranked, elite players will be unaffected (assuming bolster is properly implemented, and also accounts for min/max prefs, etc.) in that they will be where they currently are: fully-geared at BiS. Casual PvPers will not be stomped and discouraged and will not have to grind PvE in order to gear. They can PvP, without concern for gear, and bypass this tier that's not intended for PvP content, just like the PvE players can. Nobody loses. Any other approach really doesn’t make sense given the above.

 

Tl;dr -- devs should bolster PvP to 258 because: just read the orange headings...

aaaaand another post. nice fancy orange look, same bs content.

what exactly got BW intentions to implement MM gods to do with why pvp bolster at 258 is needed?

all this work just to bring up the same stupid point again: we dont want to earn or farm gear, we want it directly!!

jesus effing christ: if you want to have equal characters along the board and dont want to actualy play the game anymore, an mmo is just the wrong game for you. go play some moba like LoL etc, but stop crying allready.

Joonbeams,

As always, a very well written and careful analysis and dissection of the Cantina Stream. I agree with Cynical Steve that the design goals and methodology are unclear. Frankly, the cynic in me thinks it really is just as simple and banal as: Adding NiM to GotM was not resource intensive, 6.0 is still a ways off, so why not give the hamsters something to do.

But, I digress and there is a but...isn't that always the case between us? You do an excellent job analyzing and providing counterarguments to what was presented in the Cantina Stream. And therein said the bard lies the rub...

The gearing mechanism described on the Cantina Stream does not in any way comport to the reality of what is currently on the PTS, though there is always the caveat that it is subject to change.

As of the current PTS, the current crafting costs, despite what was said on the Cantina Stream, are mind-numblingly, jaw droppingly outrageous.

Frankly, your concern should be players like me: Lots of Alts, enjoys both PvP and PvE, and has 10 - 12 hours a week (sometimes more) to play. Assuming one does the basics for just PvP on a weekly basis, though, the gearing pace isn't that bad in comparison to other gearing mechanisms. I'm more interested in what is on the actual PTS as opposed to what was said during a livestream several weeks ago. As of now, it is the person who PvEs or PvPs on just one character that is most screwed. For anyone with at least a few alts, PvP is one of the faster ways to gear.

In any case, I think a reasonable compromise is raising Bolster to 252 and lowering the UC Costs / Increasing the Acqusition Rate (slightly) And, yes to several posters on this thread (not you Joon), I know you don't think I'm an actual PvPer because I sully myself by doing some PvE. Too bad.

Regardless, I think we all agree that BW should engage more on this issue. My hope is that you now turn your keen analytical skills (that's not sarcasm) to what is on the PTS-- and not what was uttered during the Cantina Stream. Simply put, they bear very little relation to each other.

Ultimately, though, I'm not sure it matters to you. Yes, if one engages in a variety of activities one will gear faster. That is an inherent design philosophy that many (not all) MMORPGs hold. As such, I fear this thread is destined to become just another: gear discrepancy has no place in PvP so Bolster to BiS -- something we know this studio (and many others) is against. There really is nothing new in the argument here, nor was there ever in the past, nor will there be in the future.

But to the extent you are going to somehow persuade Bioware to at least soften the blow, I think it behooves you and others to engage what is actually on the PTS.

/shrug

Dasty

aaaaand another post. nice fancy orange look, same bs content.

 

what exactly got BW intentions to implement MM gods to do with why pvp bolster at 258 is needed?

 

all this work just to bring up the same stupid point again: we dont want to earn or farm gear, we want it directly!!

 

jesus effing christ: if you want to have equal characters along the board and dont want to actualy play the game anymore, an mmo is just the wrong game for you. go play some moba like LoL etc, but stop crying allready.

It's not that the PvP crowd doesn't want to earn or farm gear (although some don't, see below) so much as that the proposed mechanisms for earning/farming gear prioritises PvE content of various sorts (notably either MMGFTM for tokens directly or Ossus dailies for reputation in order to use the UC/shard system).

I'm a bit torn about this. Part of me thinks of it as poetic justice following the initial phases of 5.0, where PvP was the only source of UCs, so if PvE types wanted to avoid "you gotta do high-tier Ops for high tier gear", they ether had to rely on crates or develop a thick skin and a tolerance for nonsense, and play PvP for a while. Another part sees both extremes as unreasonable, while noting that the initial extreme was mitigated by the addition of UCs for disintegrating crate-dropped gear.

So, "see below"... Here's below. Some PvP players would like to see PvP contests being based *purely* on skill and class variation, rather than all that plus gear differences. To be sure, some will counter that by saying that skill beats gear, to which I say that skill plus gear beats skill alone, so if you want PvP to depend on skill alone, then there should be no differences in gear. The simplest way to resolve that is a bolster system that bolsters people to the highest possible gear level.

And your last paragraph is uncalled for. They aren't saying they don't want to play. They are saying that they want to concentrate on playing Warzones on a skill versus skill basis rather than having to be gear-hunters in order to remain competitive.

Key point: you aren't taking into account that "gear progression ladder" is not a mandatory element in an MMORPG. GW2 manages just fine without it. (Remember that the difference between GW2's Legendary and Ascended gear lies entirely in the domains of Fashion Wars and Convenience Features, and not at all in questions of power, and that neither has been changed in power since their introduction years ago.)

In essence, they've taken a gear progression ladder game and removed the wall that the ladder leans against. (That wall is "we can always raise the level cap and add a new gear tier/system at the new cap". It isn't there any more.)

Good point. Where do they go after this? I think it's a good indication 6.0, when and if it ever comes, will be a "do over" and this is nothing more than a treadmill in the hopes we keep playing for the new shiny lewts.

I agree that 248 bolster is too low, particularly since none of the new gear tiers were attached to the pvp updates that are already out. In my opinion, new gear grinds need to be added with large new content updates and/or level increases --yet all we're getting is Ossus and NiM GFTM.

Hey folks,

 

The current plan is that in 5.10 bolster will have the following item ratings:

• Gear - 248 (up from 242)
  
• Augments - 236 (up from 208)
  

As always this is subject to change and I will let you know of any other adjustments. Thanks!

 

-eric

Can the studio at least compromise with 252 or 256 bolster for pvp? If for no other reason than to shut them up

With Bolster Set to 248, PvPers of All Levels (Hardcore, Casual, Regs, Ranked) Will Need Tier 5 Gear

This is really an inescapable conclusion of the devs design choices (not just starting with 5.10). Tier 5 gear will find its way into PvP, both in ranked and in unranked, making this gear that was only intended for GFTM MM Ops a factor (I believe unintentionally) in PvP.

 

This isn’t to say there is no upside to adding a gearing grind to PvP (I don’t share this view, but I can understand why some PvPers would want to have some gear to strive for). But, as implemented, this gear really can’t be earned through PvP other than through “ludicrous” methods that still also require PvE (e.g. at least for reputation and max possible shards).

 

Furthermore, unlike casual PvE, casual PvPers cannot avoid confronting this gear. This means that even casual PvPers will have to grind out this gear or be destroyed (both in regs and ranked), needlessly exacerbating an already broken PvP gearing system for casual players.

 

It's also important to note that this isn't an opinion about the merits of having this new tier of gear at all, or about the methods available for attaining the gear (I leave it to others to say how they feel about the methods themselves).

That's simply NOT the issue. The issue is that casual PvPers cannot avoid having to deal with this tier of gear, which was not at all intended (by the devs own words) for PvP, and so they must ludicrously grind for it to be able to continue to enjoy casual PvP unless the following happens:

 

Joonbeams this was well-written, thorough and was explained in a very objective manner.

I think the entire post is easily worth quoting so anyone that views my response reads everything you wrote but instead will just quote the part you wrote which is exactly why I dropped my sub and why I lost all inspiration to continue playing even before they add the new gear/gear grind.

There's just no point for a true PVPer like myself to play now.

By requiring PVPers to partake in hardcore raiding just to have access to gears NEEDED to be competitive in PVP unless they are willing to gear up via a "ludicrously long" process, there simply is no reason to bother playing the game anymore.

Been a great ride, thanks SWTOR for the memories.

I support this thread, but I'm confused.

I put this forward in PTS forum (specifically for ranked.. being as it is designed to be skill/team vs skill/team... and you poo pooed the idea.

This post is well-intentioned and appreciated. But it reflects a misunderstanding about a lot of the PvP in SWTOR (too much to be worth getting into). More importantly, it misses why bolster to 248 simply will not work for PvP in the proposed new gearing system. First of all, there are a lot of good regs players who will thrash undergeared players based purely on gear differences. That remains true. Yes, at all levels (even ranked), supremely-skilled players will not need BiS gear to defeat players of less skill. That also remains true. These facts aren't needle-movers. Good players w/ gear vs. other good players w/out gear will, over averaged over time, come out significantly ahead. There is no real denying this.

 

The problem remains for the casual player that they will be destroyed in regs due to gear discrepancies that they have no meaningful chance or hope to rectify by playing PvP. This WILL happen, and will be bad for certain players (like me who often need to go long stretches without touching the game). In the past, this has been less of a problem - it will not be so with this current system.

 

The bottom line is there is no real justification for 248 under this new system. It's needlessly punishing and honestly does nothing to benefit any faction of of the playerbase. You won't find any (always concerned about absolutes;)) fragment of the PvP base that is championing bolster to 248. Casuals won't benefit. PvErs who casually PvP won't benefit. And hardcore players won't either. Bolster to 248 makes no sense. That's ultimately where the focus should be, and the burden on the studio to explain why two levels below BiS is warranted at all, as opposed to bolster to BiS, or at the very least (and still not ideal for this new gearing system), to 252...

The issue isn't really about bolster, so that we're clear -- and that's why I'm opposed to this suggestion. My issue is with the bad gearing system (from a PvP perspective), that intentionally (by design) wasn't meant for PvP which is needlessly impacting PvPers with no real upside. Again, it's the devs themselves that have made it clear that this gear is meant for MM ops. But because of decisions made a while ago to have one gear class for PvP/PvE, this decision affects PvP too. And the means for obtaining the gear don't involve PvP (other than through the very inefficient UCs process). This is all by design.

Now.. here you are.

What changed?? I'm guessing this is more about unranked PvP then ranked.. yes?

There is a legitimate case to be made for bolster to be raised for both ranked and unranked ( though recognizing that more of the PvP only.... don't make me do PvE crowd tend to work the ranked PvP play ... and clearly... ranked as a play approach is central to competitive PvP.... for rankings). Hence I proposed 248 for unranked and 258 for ranked to effectively eliminate most of the effects of this gear from a competitive PvP player perspective.

I honestly think there is a better chance in influencing the studio to raise bolster for ranked PvP.. then there is for unranked (which is generally a more casual oriented PvP demographic), which is why I did not suggest straight 258 bolster for all instanced PvP. Yes.. I know some ranked players will also play unranked.. but that is a choice for them.. not a requirement.

Now.. the actual strongest argument for increasing bolster higher then 248 would be that the studio currently has bolster set 6 below BiS...and as such... precedent makes a good case for a bolster of 252 by the studio for all instanced PvP... as that would be consistent with their past practices.

I have always been in the camp of ---> gear should not matter in instanced PvP and hence either bolster to BiS or remove gear from the power and defense calculations completely and make a generic bolstering mechanism. Open world PvP.. gear should matter in my view.. but it's not like there is much OWPvP anyway.

In the end though.. it may not really matter. Even the biggest PvP objectors to the new tier of gear coming are very actively investigating on PTS and working out their fastest path to the gear when the patch goes live. And frankly the core issue is not the PvP pathway vs any/every other pathway... as they are fairly similar in terms of time and effort (though it may be content a player does not want to do. The core issue is PvPers with a good backlog of UCs and alts and a willingness to use them to accelerate their gearing as fast as the throttle controls will permit. Even with the current throttle controls... PvP players sitting on large stacks of UCs.. and with at least 6 cap level alts they can use to run misisons for MWS and turn in UCs for MWS... then buy gear and pull and move the mods with legacy gear can in fact lap their PvP counterparts who have fewer UCs and/or no effective alts to play for leverage.

Again.. I still believe that for competitive PvP (which I see as essentially an esport within an MMO wrapper) gear should not matter. That way, skills use and teamwork can be expressed to it's logical success points in PvP results. I'm more netural on unranked PvP... as it is designed for all types of PvPers.. from the avid to the very casual, to the once in a blue moon... and yes I recognize that can be a case for 252/258 too... but shouldn't there be some differentiation between ranked and unranked play?

Since Eric never responded to my thread about this in PTS.. I have concluded that they are just going to dig in and leave it at 248.. or perhaps move it up to 252.... because if they give 258 bolster for PvP players.. then all the PvE OPs/FP players are going to want a bolster too... so they appear to want to avoid a snowball effect here.

5 stars thread.

Good easy to follow analysis on the system to come.

Even though I've already known all of this and decided to call it quits till next levelcap increase after experiencing Ossus (because even though I'm a raider, Gods is my least favorite raid and I am not one of those ancient WOW raiders who enjoy running same dungeon 8h strait, when there is ten other more enjoyable NIMs to choose from, but apparently they're not good enough for this patch, reducing preferable run content to one operation from double digits), it's good to see someone took the time and effort to write a proper article about it.

By requiring PVPers to partake in hardcore raiding just to have access to gears NEEDED to be competitive in PVP unless they are willing to gear up via a "ludicrously long" process, there simply is no reason to bother playing the game anymore.

Except you don't actually have to do non-PvP content to gain access to the gear via vendor..... nor are the non-PvP pathways faster from all current appearances on PTS. Ironically the crafted gear approach currently appears to be the worst path in terms of resources required (which will drive a high effort/time profile) to even produce the gear, and hence the most difficult.

Yes.. it will be a grind regardless for anyone who wants all their alts in BiS gear as you do... I get that. But in reality... this is the only MMO where I have ever seen BiS ever be easy to get for alts.. and even in the case of this MMO.. the studio has since backed off of that approach. They seem to struggle with finding the balance point. first making it relatively normal by MMO standards, followed by making it too hard, then too easy.. and now... an attempt to return to the middle balance point.

I support this thread, but I'm confused.

They were still on the expertise bandwagon back then. Many of them were looking back at exp-gearing with rose-tinted glasses.

They were still on the expertise bandwagon back then. Many of them were looking back at exp-gearing with rose-tinted glasses.

While not wanting to answer my own question.. I am more of the opinion that at that point in time.. the focus was on thinking they could somehow renegotiate with the studio as to how the gear was earned (ie: less of a grind) or convince the studio to simply not do the gear. Both positions being complete non-starters with an MMO studio in my view. It is possible to persuade for some modest adjustments in some cases with a studio (when objective data is presented).. but to think you can force or control the studio on something like this is simply unrealistic.

Except you don't actually have to do non-PvP content to gain access to the gear via vendor..... nor are the non-PvP pathways faster from all current appearances on PTS. Ironically the crafted gear approach currently appears to be the worst path in terms of resources required (which will drive a high effort/time profile) to even produce the gear, and hence the most difficult.

 

Yes.. it will be a grind regardless for anyone who wants all their alts in BiS gear as you do... I get that. But in reality... this is the only MMO where I have ever seen BiS ever be easy to get for alts.. and even in the case of this MMO.. the studio has since backed off of that approach. They seem to struggle with finding the balance point. first making it relatively normal by MMO standards, followed by making it too hard, then too easy.. and now... an attempt to return to the middle balance point.

They just need to make gears irrelevant in PVP. That's it. Make bolster push all gear in the WZs to 258.

If they want to create a steep gear grind, then fine. For PVE it's not bad to work hard for your gears. The issue is for people that PVP and those who enjoy alts, and it's even worse for those who enjoy PVP and alts.

As Joon points out, gear is NEEDED in PVP, and as they acknowledge if you go the PVP route only for gears it's beyond a long grinding path. It's "ludicrous." This means highly inefficient, and this means no PVPer is going to stick around and play this game if they can't gear up quickly for PVP.

This will resolve all issues for both PvE and PvP.

PvP - Make gear irrelevant and just always set bloster to Max gear level. Problem solved.

PvE - Top 3 tiers of gear come from normal, veteran or master mode respectively. Any tiers below should be purchased via vendor for credits. Bosses drop slot specific gear tokens to trade, 1-2 per boss and 2-3 for final boss. Problem solved.

Unless you do ops, no need to have stats from top 3 tiers of gear. Slight compromise maybe would be non-ops tasks like heroics, FPs, WZ, GSF, etc reward commendations to trade for the top 3 gear tokens to then trade to vendor for gear. Higher the tier, higher the commendation cost.

There now everyone is happy.

The issue is for people that PVP and those who enjoy alts, and it's even worse for those who enjoy PVP and alts.

For those who have been away and just joining this debate: This statement is flat out, factually incorrect as of the current PTS. Head over to the PTS Forum and there are numerous posts explaining why.

The only thing you need to understand to disprove the statement quoted is that the throttling mechanism for gear acquisition is Masterwork Shards. Sure, I suppose if you want to gear up several dozen alts in BiS, you're in trouble, but that is no different than now or any other MMORPG with the exception of GW2.

More alts played = more MWS acquisition. Synergy, etc. It's just not that complicated when you look at the actual data, something many in this thread refuse to do.

Dasty

P.S. Raise bolster to 252 and ease up some of the UC costs / acquisition -- something BW might accept and soften the blow. But to say that the new system is alt unfriendly is the opposite of the truth.

Yeah, I think this is a decent summary, thank you Joonbeams. I still think the impact of 258 gear on pvp is being overstated mildly. A full set of 258 gear only boosts stat pool by 5%, so any individual piece is boosting stat pools by 0.36%. At current stat budgets around 8000, we're talking about 28 points of mastery, endurance, and tertiary stat. Given the a) absolutely insane resource requirements for crafting, and b) the throttling mechanisms to both the MWS pathway and the MM GOTM pathway, we're talking about a player maybe getting 1 piece a week, with 2 if they are lucky in progression. Let's also keep in mind that the crafted pieces entering the economy are going to be mostly left side stuff at the beginning, since MH/OH "Forgotten Somethings" will probably only drop from Izax, further limiting the impact (an earpiece doesn't do as much as a MH).

I think that it is also important to note that as of yet, no Developer has responded to the apparent bug where 252/258 pieces are not stacking their set boni with 230-248. If this is intended, then it will be even longer before these players affect pvp because no one would give up a six piece bonus for 28 more points of stat budget.

However, the fact that 258 will be introduced into the pvp population at slower rates than the forum warriors would make us believe, does not obviate the importance of adjusting Bolster. I think adjusting it to 252-254 range is more reasonable than 248, and improving UC drop rates and disintegration is worthwhile as well.

<snipped however - everything you said was magic and the devs need to enlarge it, print it and post it on their wall!>

Joonbeams post outlines just about everyone's posted concerns about PvPers & 5.10 gearing and the scandalous bolster decision in the clearest way possible. I cannot see how Keith and co can ignore any of it. Based on the content, they need reconsider and bolster to 258 in PvP - even if it delays the release of 5.10. My highlights of Joonbeams post are:

ONE:

Crafting Components for Tier 5 Gear Only Come From the GFTM Bosses

The devs explained that the crafting components to make the Tier 5 gear only comes from GFTM bosses (~30:20). You specifically cannot obtain these components from any other content in the game, PvP or otherwise.

So many have tried to say this wasn't the case. I posted the point on the video where this was said yet people still didn't agree. Thanks for re-stating point.

TWO:

PvP Is a "Somewhat Ludicrous and Limited Way" to Earn Tier 5 Gear

A path to gearing in 5.10 is by collecting and exchanging unassembled components (UCs) for masterwork shards and selling them to a reputation vendor. However, if you choose this approach, you are taking the "ludicrous and limited" way to gearing due to a number of throttles introduced by the devs to specifically prevent this from be a faster way to gearing than MM GFTM (~29:40). I will not rehash all of the throttles here, though Dulfy lays this out well (as usual). Again, as discussed, the devs want the MM GFTM bosses to be the fastest way to gearing

So many people on these forums and others have stated that the fastest way to get the gear in 5.10 will be through hoarding and using unassembled components. At present it's not true UC hoarders. The "throttles" as Joonbeams calls them will prevent that. The devs were clear about this in the livestream; each time you buy gear in this way you will be sanctioned making it more expensive and take longer each piece you buy.

Can the studio at least compromise with 252 or 256 bolster for pvp? If for no other reason than to shut them up

YES!!! Shut us up

A good argument, in general.

 

It isn't *circular*. Circular would be "they are adding one because they are adding one." What we have is "They are adding one because Keith wants them to add one."

 

Actually, I believe it is circular because the question really is "why did Keith want to add in a MM tier to GFTM?" And the answer we got was "because Keith wanted to add in a MM tier to GFTM." It's a bit semantic at this point, but that's what I was getting at.

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jesus effing christ: if you want to have equal characters along the board and dont want to actualy play the game anymore, an mmo is just the wrong game for you. go play some moba like LoL etc, but stop crying allready.

lol

Joon,

 

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The gearing mechanism described on the Cantina Stream does not in any way comport to the reality of what is currently on the PTS, though there is always the caveat that it is subject to change.

 

As of the current PTS, the current crafting costs, despite what was said on the Cantina Stream, are mind-numblingly, jaw droppingly outrageous.

 

Frankly, your concern should be players like me: Lots of Alts, enjoys both PvP and PvE, and has 10 - 12 hours a week (sometimes more) to play. Assuming one does the basics for just PvP on a weekly basis, though, the gearing pace isn't that bad in comparison to other gearing mechanisms. I'm more interested in what is on the actual PTS as opposed to what was said during a livestream several weeks ago. As of now, it is the person who PvEs or PvPs on just one character that is most screwed. For anyone with at least a few alts, PvP is one of the faster ways to gear.

 

In any case, I think a reasonable compromise is raising Bolster to 252 and lowering the UC Costs / Increasing the Acqusition Rate (slightly) And, yes to several posters on this thread (not you Joon), I know you don't think I'm an actual PvPer because I sully myself by doing some PvE. Too bad.

 

Regardless, I think we all agree that BW should engage more on this issue. My hope is that you now turn your keen analytical skills (that's not sarcasm) to what is on the PTS-- and not what was uttered during the Cantina Stream. Simply put, they bear very little relation to each other.

 

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But to the extent you are going to somehow persuade Bioware to at least soften the blow, I think it behooves you and others to engage what is actually on the PTS.

 

/shrug

 

Dasty

As always Dasty, many solid points here. I want to point out that the entire crux of my argument is one of "intent" by the studio, and how that intent has been communicated. While I totally agree that we need to look to the PTS, I think it's VERY IMPORTANT to start first with what the studio itself says its aims are. This is why I created the post. And the thing the devs were emphatic about was that GFTM w/ crafting was supposed to be the fastest, most-efficient way to gear. If that's not the case on the PTS, that's itself a different problem and issue (in some ways a bigger, more concerning problem if that doesn't end up getting addressed).

When the stated intent of the gear is looked at, and also the stated intent of having MM GFTM Ops to be the fastest gearing method (and taking them at their word), it's pretty clear that this wasn't meant to be a hamster-wheel grind for casual players (unlike, say, 5.0). This was meant to give the Ops crowd something fresh to tide them over until new content releases.

[As someone who doesn't do Ops, but has been a PTS player, take what I say below with a grain of salt]

And finally, just so it's addressed, I believe the issues on the PTS won't replicate what will happen when live. For example, I believe there is a level boost (and I assume that will be removed). Also, I'm not sure the reputation requirement is in effect yet. Additionally, I don't believe weekly hardcaps have been set (they may not ever get put in, but IMO it's safer to assume there will be some cap). In addition, data on gear drop rates, boss difficulty, etc. is being collected and we should expect changes. If we see (expected) changes, we should assume that they will be put in to bring the content in line with the devs stated objectives. So while I understand that based on the PTS currently, the drop rates from GFTM are making the crafting option inefficient, I don't suspect (for a number of reasons) that will be the case indefinitely....

So many people on these forums and others have stated that the fastest way to get the gear in 5.10 will be through hoarding and using unassembled components. At present it's not true UC hoarders. The "throttles" as Joonbeams calls them will prevent that. The devs were clear about this in the livestream; each time you buy gear in this way you will be sanctioned making it more expensive and take longer each piece you buy.

Resets per character / per week. Current cost for first MWS is 500 UCs per character / resets each week; increase is 1000 UCs for second MWS; currently can't buy more than 2 on PTS. Let's assume lowest cost: So would you rather:

A) Have one character at 70 who purchases 1 Masterwork Shard for 500 UC's per week, accruing 4 over a 1 month / 4 week period; or

B) Have 10 level 70s who purchase 10 Masterwork Shards for 5000 UC's per week, accruing 40 over a 1 month / 4 week period.

This doesn't even assume you play. If you play several alts, the synergistic effect increases even more.

Obviously you need to make certain you don't overextend. There is no point in having 2 MWS each across 20 characters. You still have to be able to purchase an actual piece of gear.

Dasty

finally, just so it's addressed, I believe the issues on the PTS won't replicate what will happen when live. For example, I believe there is a level boost (and I assume that will be removed). Also, I'm not sure the reputation requirement is in effect yet. Additionally, I don't believe weekly hardcaps have been set (they may not ever get put in, but IMO it's safer to assume there will be some cap). In addition, data on gear drop rates, boss difficulty, etc. is being collected and we should expect changes. If we see (expected) changes, we should assume that they will be put in to bring the content in line with the devs stated objectives. So while I understand that based on the PTS currently, the drop rates from GFTM are making the crafting option inefficient, I don't suspect (for a number of reasons) that will be the case indefinitely....

It’s not just the drop rates in GFTM specifically. It’s the CMTs.