Let's face it,how often do you see operative dps in operations and in warzones?Yes,not that often.Clearly operatives have dps problems.

Don't know if it is mentioned before but:

1.A great way to improve operatives that is also very suitable for the operative style of gameplay is to increase all damage done while you are *fully* behind your target by 10% or 15%.This is not only a step in the right direction but also increases the skill cap of the class.An improvement of this kind will not make it fotm or something.

This can be a passive skill that all operatives get at level 10.

It looks kinda strange because 2 of our skills have a requirement for you to be behind your target and it doesn't make any lore sense why would grenade do more damage if used from behind your target,but i had this idea.

2.Also Hidden Strike can be made as an attack that can be used out of stealth but with a huge cooldown and it will reset when you enter stealth.

DPS isn't the main problem, it's more that Concealment relies too heavily on stealth, and both specs are too squishy for what's effectively a melee class.

That's it right there. We do great damage *when left alone*. We are way too easy to kill in the middle of combat. Dirty Fighting has the advantage of doing more damage at range to live longer, but you're not applying *meaningful* pressure or getting any kills that way. On either spec when you swoop in to pressure a healer and his teammates respond to defend him, you're dead.

When I am ignored I can pull 500K+ in Scrapper and 800K+ in Dirty Fighting (not the best I'm sure, but I feel good with those numbers). When I am getting attention (I assume I get marked sometimes while off healing) then I am lucky to pull half that. Lately, I feel like smart pugs are marking me in HB to impede my scampering all over the place, lol.)

This could be said of other melee specs, but I believe we have it the worst comparatively, along with DPS Vanguards, who actually have a real problem (reduced burst) now to go with their poor survivability. Shadows, Sentinels and Guardians just have much better survival tools, not to mention great tools to allow them to get their damage off and live to tell the tale.

WTB GbtF (kidding!)

I'm assuming this is in direct reference to PVP?

The only issue with Operative DPS in PVE is being forced to be within 4m at such a high frequency and the positional requirements of Concealment.

DPS isn't the main problem, it's more that Concealment relies too heavily on stealth, and both specs are too squishy for what's effectively a melee class.

I had the impression that operatives are not supposed to be not squishy.I though we are supposed to go in take out a guy quickly and vanish out of sight.

squishy + huge burst(biggest in the game) and ok sustainable damage+ stealth is supposed to be the stealth mele class in all rpgs.If we get more survivability we are going to be too much like sith assassins,which i don't think is the operative class concept.

I mean i may be wrong in this,if we are supposed to stand toe to toe in a long fight ,then my mistake.

I personally have no problem with being squishy,as long as the damage makes up for it.

Also if we get extra survivability ,operative healers will be completely overpowered in pvp.

Concerning pve,extra damage will also make up for the dangers of being a squishy mele class.

I had the impression that operatives are not supposed to be not squishy.I though we are supposed to go in take out a guy quickly and vanish out of sight.

squishy + huge burst(biggest in the game) and ok sustainable damage+ stealth is supposed to be the stealth mele class in all rpgs.If we get more survivability we are going to be too much like sith assassins,which i don't think is the operative class concept.

I mean i may be wrong in this,if we are supposed to stand toe to toe in a long fight ,then my mistake.

This is how Concealment works right now, and while that may be fine in regular warzones against average teams, this is a problem in high-level, competitive play. You can contribute to bursting one enemy target down, but if you're not successful within about 10 seconds, you're forced to either blow your vanish (bad), disengage and wait until you get out of combat (bad) or die (bad). And even if you do manage to successfully kill your target, you'll be stuck in combat and forced to blow your vanish or disengage until you drop combat (or die).

In addition to survivability buffs, Concealment needs some kind of mechanic that decreases stealth reliance in PvP. Perhaps something like if an enemy dies and you've contributed to killing it, you get a proc that lets you re-stealth even if in combat, or use Hidden Strike without the stealth requirement.

Lethality does not rely on stealth to be effective, but can't stand up to focus fire the way a Jugg, Marauder or Assassin can.

Also if we get extra survivability ,operative healers will be completely overpowered in pvp.

Agreed, which is why the survivability buffs need to be mid/high in the Concealment and Lethality trees.

Concerning pve,extra damage will also make up for the dangers of being a squishy mele class.

We are fine in PvE, quite strong actually.

This is how Concealment works right now, and while that may be fine in regular warzones against average team, this is a problem in high-level, competitive play. You can contribute to bursting one enemy target down, but if you're not successful within about 10 seconds, you're forced to either blow your vanish (bad), disengage and wait until you get out of combat (bad) or die (bad). And even if you do manage to successfully kill your target, you'll be stuck in combat and forced to blow your vanish or disengage until you drop combat (or die).

 

In addition to survivability buffs, Concealment needs some kind of mechanic that decreases stealth reliance in PvP. Perhaps something like if an enemy dies and you've contributed to killing it, you get a proc that lets you re-stealth even if in combat, or use Hidden Strike without the stealth requirement.

 

Lethality does not rely on stealth to be effective, but can't stand up to focus fire the way a Jugg, Marauder or Assassin can.

 

 

Agreed, which is why the survivability buffs need to be mid/high in the Concealment and Lethality trees.

 

 

We are fine in PvE, quite strong actually.

I agree on all these points especially the pvp ones because bioware thinks it's fun to FORCE us into healing warzones, with one exception..

While we are quite strong in pve, our damage is too reliant on the RNG. I play lethality in pve with almost optimal gear, and with a bad RNG I can only hit about 2200 dps, where as a good RNG I'm pushing 2500 dps with my 66 barrel and 69/72's. Other classes don't have to have "the stars align right" to have their dps pushed into the 2600-2800's.

We either need some form of group utility, or have more ways to make up for when the RNG decides to be a butt.. I mean, you'd think after 5 shiv's I'd get a fatality proc every now and then -_- (i've actually had that happen, some 60% chance that is)

This is how Concealment works right now, and while that may be fine in regular warzones against average team, this is a problem in high-level, competitive play. You can contribute to bursting one enemy target down, but if you're not successful within about 10 seconds, you're forced to either blow your vanish (bad), disengage and wait until you get out of combat (bad) or die (bad). And even if you do manage to successfully kill your target, you'll be stuck in combat and forced to blow your vanish or disengage until you drop combat (or die).

Last few days i have been spamming warzones with my operative again, and yes you are very much correct with what you say here.However i don't think i fully agree with the statement that the almost the whole solution to operative pvp problems is survivability improvements,even if they are Concealment and Lethality specific -hight in the skill trees..

Actually many problems that i had previously(before the expansion) were solved with Exfiltrate.When things go bad-2,3 guys start eyeballing and running towards me while i am murdering a lone guy in peace or some situation like that ,i just cleanse myself of any slows and debuffs asap and start exfiltrating the hell out of there.Not mindlessly spamming the ability to some random direction mind you.Just pure emergency evacuation and relocation to another target or a place or w/e quickly.You probably know the drill.

Now the problem: It takes too long to get out of combat and restealth ,and there are also many bugs or mechanics not working as intended that gets you back in combat when you are not supposed to be in it.This is for all classes but it is especially critical for operatives because of the particularities of our (concealment) mechanics.

I am not sure how this can be fixed but it needs to done and it is not fully related to a survivability issue.

Basically i don't want to play with my operative like i play with my Juggernaut or Marauder,or Powertech.I feel like operative burst is not what it is supposed to be,given the circumstances of a low survivability out of stealth.Imo the solution is more damage,not more general survivability out of stealth,because that is not what the class is about.

Although a lower cooldown of Cloaking Screen would be good,given the fact we don't have a Cloak of Shadows type of ability like Assassins do.

Stealth reliance is not necessarily a bad thing,specially when/if going out of combat and restealthing is fixed.

Also ,i think,more survivability will not make operatives as popular in ranked wzs as some people would imagine,because the damage is still going to be single target and it still won't be enough bursty OR sustainable ,*specially* in ranked environment.More utility and damage is needed.

PS:sorry for the long post.

I love my concealment op so this is not a suggestion to fix but more of a QoL or wish list i would enjoy for both PVP and PVE:

Explosive probe- Having to crouch to fire this off is a pain and truthfully should be removed of that restriction

Distraction- Can concealment have a cooldown reduction on interrupts, this would give us a niche in PVP and would inadvertently increase our survivability against caster and increase our pressure on healers.

Acid Blade- Can shiv be placed on the list to set the ability off, this is mostly for a PVE QoL but it would allow longer fights where mobs are immune to CC or in Operations where I am unable to be behind the boss to still keep the debuff and DoT active.

That's it for me, beside the exfiltrate bug that locks you in place ever so often i am loving my class at the moment.

DPS isn't the main problem, it's more that Concealment relies too heavily on stealth, and both specs are too squishy for what's effectively a melee class.

This x100. Compare our damage mitigation with that of a deception 'sin or a marauder. Not only do both have a passive 30% reduction to AOE damage taken, both have up-as-often-as-not 25%/20% damage reduction. It's not like these are oh-**** abilities -- these are "entering combat might as well turn this on" abilities.

That alone disqualifies dps ops from serious pvp. They take literally twice as much damage from lolsmash.

Energy management. Though it's certainly improved in 2.0 with the changes to alacrity and pugnacity/stim boost as well as a baseline +1 energy tic passive...Not to mention a small energy refund with Round Two/Rolling Punches...We STILL fall behind most every other dps in the game when it comes to solid, sustained dps. I'm talking about Scrapper/Concealment. Dirty Fighting is great.

You look at a good Sentinel, Commando, Gunslinger, they can continuously dish out high dps and have excellent energy management at the same time. Commando might need to slow down from time to time to allow ammo to tic back up, but not as often as Scoundrel...and, unlike Commando, Scrapper truly suffers for a good 15+ seconds waiting for that slow energy tic.

And yes, we're still far too dependent on stealth. I applaud the devs for designing the encounters in Scum and Villainy around this, as not all of them have an obnoxious instant AoE that pops a scoundrel right back out of stealth and royally screws our opener. (Except Thrasher, who does.)

How about making us immune to damage with Sneak? (Only in stealth.)

Also can Cool Head/Adrenaline Probe please stop breaking stealth already? It makes no sense. Please? Please? Pretty pleeease?

Concealment relies heavily on stealth, in PvP there is far too much AoE/DoTs that stop Operatives being able to stealth and be effective.

The spec its self is always going to cause problems. If you made it any stealthier you're only going to get (insert word of choice to describe cry babies) asking for nerfs and complaining they are OP.

Here's some interesting ones.

1. Hidden Strike+Acid Blade = Auto-Crit. And something similar at the top of Lethality. If they think that is too OP, then only make it auto-crit if the acid blade dot doesn't already exist.

2. Immunte to AoE Taunt and and AoE CC while stealthed.

3. Able to stealth if no enemy has LoS. (Might be pretty OP)

4. Force Cloak cooldown shortens for each DoT crit.

All great suggestions! My main is a sorc. But fell in love with the op. But in WZ I get killed faster than my sorc does!!! ***? DEVs if you've seen these posts can you please respond if any c improvements will be made?

They wont respond to these posts.. It's obvious they only care about certain classes and don't care about how pvp is.. Their big plan is "oh wait til 2.4!" but to be honest, a lot of people would have already cancelled by then..

Here's some interesting ones.

 

1. Hidden Strike+Acid Blade = Auto-Crit. And something similar at the top of Lethality. If they think that is too OP, then only make it auto-crit if the acid blade dot doesn't already exist.

2. Immunte to AoE Taunt and and AoE CC while stealthed.

3. Able to stealth if no enemy has LoS. (Might be pretty OP)

4. Force Cloak cooldown shortens for each DoT crit.

1. While this would certainly be nice, I would be content with increasing the magnitude of Concealed Attacks (make it 10/20 or 15/30 if feeling generous). An auto-crit would devalue Concealed Attacks, or force a redesign, so I think the devs would be less reluctant to simply buff it. While we're at it, Waylay could use some love (or even better, roll it into the base Backstab and replace it with a new talent, more on this in a moment..).

2. I'd like to take this a step further. This was suggested by someone else in a thread on the Scoundrel forum, but I thought it was an interesting idea and worth re-posting here: What if our stealth was not broken by AoE damage?

We'd still take damage from abilities like Force in Balance and Mortar Volley, but we'd remain in stealth until spotted and directly attacked. This would also increase the tactical value of Stealth Scan, as it would be the only GTAOE capable of popping Concealment Operatives out of stealth. This could be rolled into Shadow Operative Elite.

3. I've been thinking of ways to allow Concealment Operatives to re-stealth without dropping combat, too. I'm not sure if they have the tech to tie it to LOS, but I considered allowing us to re-stealth after a successful kill that we contributed to. Of course, this could be "exploited" by spreading dots and spamming Frag Grenade, allowing you to frequently stealth out in combat, and I'm not sure how to solve that. I thought about Killing Blows, but that does not seem ideal, either... maybe a proc that allows Hidden Strike to be used out of stealth whenever you get a kill?

This could replace Waylay.

4. I like this. Given how reliant Concealment Operatives are on Stealth, it'd be nice if there was a way to knock a little extra time off the Cloaking Screen cooldown. Perhaps a simple -1s on incoming damage of any kind? May have to be limited to proc every X second to make it balanced, but there's potential here. A replacement for Revitalizers, perhaps?

In addition, I would not mind getting the 30% AoE damage reduction Assassins get from Fade added to our Ghost skill. Fade currently has 3 benefits, while Ghost has 2, so I think this would be balanced (I'd be fine with a different but equivalent survivability buff too if copying the Assassin one is deemed too unimaginative).

Thoughts?

In addition to survivability buffs, Concealment needs some kind of mechanic that decreases stealth reliance in PvP. Perhaps something like if an enemy dies and you've contributed to killing it, you get a proc that lets you re-stealth even if in combat, or use Hidden Strike without the stealth requirement.

You might be onto something right there, Bioware over here please, look, look !

Wouldn't that make them more stealth reliant, though?

Anyway, I wish Lethality had a way to generate TA stacks outside of using Hidden Strike and Shiv. Perhaps a chance to generate a TA stack on DoT crits or something. It feels clunky that we have to stay within 4 meters of our target when all our spec abilities have 10-meter ranges or more.

Wouldn't that make them more stealth reliant, though?

One of the main reasons for the stealth reliance is Hidden Strike. Allowing its use without the stealth requirement after a successful kill (or another trigger, could be anything as long as it's not too OP) would absolutely reduce stealth reliance. Allowing Stealth to be used in combat after a successful kill would not reduce stealth reliance, but would make it less of a problem.

Anyway, I wish Lethality had a way to generate TA stacks outside of using Hidden Strike and Shiv. Perhaps a chance to generate a TA stack on DoT crits or something. It feels clunky that we have to stay within 4 meters of our target when all our spec abilities have 10-meter ranges or more.

To be honest, Lethality would be OP if we could generate even more TA stacks. Cull already makes up nearly half of Lethality's damage, even more would require nerfs in other areas to make it balanced. I think we just have to accept that we are a melee class with limited ranged ability (as opposed to PTs who are fine at 10m).

One of the main reasons for the stealth reliance is Hidden Strike. Allowing its use without the stealth requirement after a successful kill (or another trigger, could be anything as long as it's not too OP) would absolutely reduce stealth reliance. Allowing Stealth to be used in combat after a successful kill would not reduce stealth reliance, but would make it less of a problem.

 

 

To be honest, Lethality would be OP if we could generate even more TA stacks. Cull already makes up nearly half of Lethality's damage, even more would require nerfs in other areas to make it balanced. I think we just have to accept that we are a melee class with limited ranged ability (as opposed to PTs who are fine at 10m).

I honestly think that we wouldn't be OP if we had the ability to generate TA from range but that it would actually smooth out the rotation especially in fights with a lot of mobility and "stop times" aka Titan-6, bonus boss in hammer station etc. With our very short TA duration and counting server lag, you can barley keep that 1 TA up at all times during these phases, causing the whole "ramp up" time to begin again while other classes can just easily go about their dps with little to no ramp up time. This is a problem in most of the fights these days and one of the reasons that operatives aren't included in operation teams.

A suggestion would be to a talent in lethatlity that would allow either a % chance of a dot crit to use hidden strike, or allow hidden strike to apply both dots cutting ramp up time (especially in pvp) in half and making it equal to every other classes set up time.. hell even sniper leth has a shorter ramp up time than we do.. and does more damage..