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Shadow Top Three Answers

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Jiminison's Avatar


Jiminison
04.16.2014 , 06:26 PM | #231
Quote: Originally Posted by DarthSpekulatius View Post
the reason why they can have self heals is because they aren't spiky. Shadows are spiky that's why the community pushed the devs to move the after the fact self heals over to static preemptive mitigation (armor).

it doesn't matter what the devs wrote as justification, these were just pretty words without meaning (that stuff about devaluing healers, if that was the reason there wouldn't be healing stations in the tactical Flashpoints these actually do devalue Healers).
We had the defensive synergy and heals pre 2.0 they first cut def I think 50% then the next nerf patch they cut healing down and since then they have completely gutted healing for shadow so yes we did have what the other 2 tanks have now but it was considered op so logic says either put us back where our def and heals worked together pre 2.0 or bring the other tanks in line with us and Guardians have been topping over all damage in wz atleast on jungma and heal for large numbers so say what you want if it was op then for us then it is op now for troopers and knights.

DarthSpekulatius's Avatar


DarthSpekulatius
04.17.2014 , 12:02 AM | #232
Quote: Originally Posted by Jiminison View Post
We had the defensive synergy and heals pre 2.0 they first cut def I think 50% then the next nerf patch they cut healing down and since then they have completely gutted healing for shadow so yes we did have what the other 2 tanks have now but it was considered op so logic says either put us back where our def and heals worked together pre 2.0 or bring the other tanks in line with us and Guardians have been topping over all damage in wz atleast on jungma and heal for large numbers so say what you want if it was op then for us then it is op now for troopers and knights.
Guardians are focused on DR, defense, self heals and Cheese
Vanguards are focused on DR, Absorption and self heals
Shadows are focused on Defense Shield Absorption and Cheese also shadows have the most gain moving from a Defense focused Build for White Heavy Bosses over to a Shield&Absorb Focused Build for Yellow ones
they wanted to keep us from randomly hitting the Floor the Options were
reduced base Defense -> increasing our chance to be spiked and devaluing Defense rating
reduced base Shield -> increasing our chance to be spiked and devaluing Shield and Absorb rating
reduced base Absorb -> devaluing Shield and Absorb rating
all of these are well Scaling Stats the more you have the better
or they could have reduced Self heals

also don't forget that Shield got a Huge buff in 2.0 (yellow Damage wasn't shieldable)
Shadow tanks being the tanks with the Highest Shield and Absorption got the most out of it

it's not the fault of the removed self heals that Critical Hits ignore Shield.
it's not the fault of the removed self heals that the lower stat budget in PVP hurts tanks more then any other Specialization

it's not the fault of the removed self heals that 70% DR + 40% reduced damage is less then 70%DR + 15%DR
it's not the fault of the removed self heals that the 4% in 36%DR + 4%DR is worth less then it is in 40%DR+4%DR

if you think Shadow Tanks Suck in pvp go over to the Assassin Questions thread and say you want the Stupid Phasewalk question removed and ask for a PVP Buff, let PVE alone though. thank you very much.

Itathor's Avatar


Itathor
04.18.2014 , 01:38 PM | #233
Quote: Originally Posted by DarthSpekulatius View Post
Guardians are focused on DR, defense, self heals and Cheese
Vanguards are focused on DR, Absorption and self heals
Shadows are focused on Defense Shield Absorption and Cheese also shadows have the most gain moving from a Defense focused Build for White Heavy Bosses over to a Shield&Absorb Focused Build for Yellow ones
they wanted to keep us from randomly hitting the Floor the Options were
reduced base Defense -> increasing our chance to be spiked and devaluing Defense rating
reduced base Shield -> increasing our chance to be spiked and devaluing Shield and Absorb rating
reduced base Absorb -> devaluing Shield and Absorb rating
all of these are well Scaling Stats the more you have the better
or they could have reduced Self heals

also don't forget that Shield got a Huge buff in 2.0 (yellow Damage wasn't shieldable)
Shadow tanks being the tanks with the Highest Shield and Absorption got the most out of it

it's not the fault of the removed self heals that Critical Hits ignore Shield.
it's not the fault of the removed self heals that the lower stat budget in PVP hurts tanks more then any other Specialization

it's not the fault of the removed self heals that 70% DR + 40% reduced damage is less then 70%DR + 15%DR
it's not the fault of the removed self heals that the 4% in 36%DR + 4%DR is worth less then it is in 40%DR+4%DR

if you think Shadow Tanks Suck in pvp go over to the Assassin Questions thread and say you want the Stupid Phasewalk question removed and ask for a PVP Buff, let PVE alone though. thank you very much.
enjoy
Mechanix-Retrospective

sithBracer's Avatar


sithBracer
04.18.2014 , 01:47 PM | #234
Quote: Originally Posted by Aelanis View Post
1) Vanguard and Guardian self heals typically have a fairly long cooldown (Kolto Overload, Missile Launcher, Focused Defense) and, with the exception of Blade Storm (which Guardians get in exchange for low % numbers in their mitigation stats from their tree), don't account for a large portion of their overall mitigation. We used to get 8% of our health every 9-12 seconds, plus the heals from Combat Technique, for almost 200% of our health in the same time they would get to use their abilities. It was a very, very significant portion of our mitigation, and was (with the exception of low damage instances) worth, at best, as much as the new DR is worth. Especially in high damage instances, the DR is much, much better.
I think they are talking about PvP.
Ma'kaela - jedi shadow in training
Mákaela - assassin in the shadows

Aelanis's Avatar


Aelanis
04.18.2014 , 06:28 PM | #235
Quote: Originally Posted by Itathor View Post
You don't get it do you?
Guardians have defensive abilities regardless of the specs they are in.. your retarded TK channel to get DR is stupid cause you can be stunned, knocked back etc, and yes i read the tooltip...and its bull..cause you have to put points in KC to get it also, get it yet? And since you injected your PVE bias into this , i know now who to blame.....
What defensive abilities do Guardians get "regardless of the specs they are in?" Warding Call? 5 second long Saber Reflect? Reductions on the cooldown on most of the defensive cooldowns they get? Those are all restricted to Defense Guardians. The Bonus DR on Enure is limited to Vengeance. As for their set of moves that work regardless of spec, every single class in the game gets those. Shadows happen to get some pretty amazing ones, like 50% defense chance, 95% Force and Tech resist, and Force Cloak. All they have is heavy armor, and an Infiltration Shadow can manage up to almost 30% DR once they get going.

Alright, it's cool that they can stun you and knock you back when you start to channel. Except that the first tick is instantaneous and gets off if you get to start your channel, refreshing your stacks. It's not as easy as Guardian Slash, no, but Guardians have to spec all the way up in Defense to maintain that, too. And what's wrong with having a PVE bias?

Quote: Originally Posted by sithBracer View Post
I think they are talking about PvP.
Yeah..... I tend to miss that fact pretty often.
Dulfy Guides: Hatred, Serenity, Darkness, Kinetic Combat
Ellendra - Death MarkExit Area - Theraton
The Shadowlands

Itathor's Avatar


Itathor
04.19.2014 , 12:46 AM | #236
whatever
Mechanix-Retrospective

DarthSpekulatius's Avatar


DarthSpekulatius
04.19.2014 , 02:48 AM | #237
Quote: Originally Posted by Itathor View Post
In all honesty, dps commandos seem to need buffs ...........
has nothing to do with this thread if every body complained about buffs to classes other then their own Favorite the devs wouldn't be able to do anything because a majority of seven to one would ragequit instantaneously.

and yes in this case we PVE players are to blame for you loosing your beloved selfheals not the Devs.
so put the Blame where it belongs.

why do you think Shadow PVE DPS suck?

Hakkology's Avatar


Hakkology
04.19.2014 , 03:02 AM | #238
To be honest the problem is the way Bioware treats us "light armor" classes.
It just doesn't make sense. There is no reward for the risk you are taking.
Hakko of the Red Eclipse ( Telekinetics Sage )

La_Frite's Avatar


La_Frite
06.05.2014 , 05:27 AM | #239
For Shadow/Assassin tank, I think Bioware could mixed damage reduction ability with self-heal ability. For example, with Harnessed Darkness, when we gain stacks, we could choose to use a self-heal buff or a damage reduction buff, and not the two at the same time. A Self-heal buff for constant damage and a buff of damage reduction to mitigate some damage when big hits of boss are coming. More stacks we gain more the buff is powerfull, but the player could anticipate the hits and choose the proper buff with the proper number of stacks at the best moment. Obviously, if it's needed, these buffs could be reduced for PvP war zone or if the target is a player character.
An other idea based on the fury stacks of the Sentinel/Marauder class. ex: when we use Dark Charge we gain stacks for every hits given and taken (taken because tanks are punching bag ), and at a proper number of stacks we can choose one buff (self-heal, damage reduction...) among different sorts of buff.
The management of these different sorts of buff get Shadow/Sin tank more complex and exciting to play...and all Shadow/Assassin tanks will be happy

Sorry for my bad english

Aelanis's Avatar


Aelanis
06.05.2014 , 09:13 AM | #240
Quote: Originally Posted by La_Frite View Post
For Shadow/Assassin tank, I think Bioware could mixed damage reduction ability with self-heal ability. For example, with Harnessed Darkness, when we gain stacks, we could choose to use a self-heal buff or a damage reduction buff, and not the two at the same time. A Self-heal buff for constant damage and a buff of damage reduction to mitigate some damage when big hits of boss are coming. More stacks we gain more the buff is powerfull, but the player could anticipate the hits and choose the proper buff with the proper number of stacks at the best moment. Obviously, if it's needed, these buffs could be reduced for PvP war zone or if the target is a player character.
An other idea based on the fury stacks of the Sentinel/Marauder class. ex: when we use Dark Charge we gain stacks for every hits given and taken (taken because tanks are punching bag ), and at a proper number of stacks we can choose one buff (self-heal, damage reduction...) among different sorts of buff.
The management of these different sorts of buff get Shadow/Sin tank more complex and exciting to play...and all Shadow/Assassin tanks will be happy

Sorry for my bad english
I'm not sure if you've gone through the forums extensively (the threads on this topic are probably buried by now), but having the option to pick between self heals and DR is quite unbalanced. We would obviously pick the best for the situation, and get the best of both worlds, and remove much of our (few) weaknesses. In PVP, I wouldn't care so much: tanking pretty much blows in PVP, and survivability isn't what it should be. On the other hand, in PVE, we'd become very OP. We'd pick the self heal as we're off tanking, allowing the healer to focus on the other tank (something no other tank could do), since raid wide damage taken by tanks is laughable. When main tanking, if the damage threshold is low enough, we'd pick the heals, and if it gets too much, we pick the DR, and benefit tremendously from the ability to pick. It would put us at a somewhat unfair advantage compared to the other tanks, and that's when we get nerfed. It's a nice thought, but the self heals aren't coming back.
Dulfy Guides: Hatred, Serenity, Darkness, Kinetic Combat
Ellendra - Death MarkExit Area - Theraton
The Shadowlands