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Boarding party final convo misogyny


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I have to say, I really wish the final boarding party convo didn't have the "someone shut this woman up" option. Every freaking time (okay, 95% of the time) when I do that flashpoint and don't win the roll, I have to hear that stupid line and watch the guys in my group LOL about woman-beating. Okay, I get it, it's a game. They're playing evil characters. They do a lot of killing and whatnot, so simply getting hit shouldn't matter. But there's a difference, and the fact that so many guys get such a kick out of watching a woman get pistol-whipped really makes me kind of sick and despair of humanity. Because here's the thing, guys: it's not funny. No, really, it's not.

 

I just did a HM of this for my daily. Everything was going along fine, and when one of the guys in the group responded to the first convo with the Jedi lady, where she threatens us, with "Let's gang rape her", I let it go and didn't say anything. When we got to the final convo, one of the guys said, "best part", and I knew he was talking about that line, because so many people just think it's so dang funny to watch a woman get smacked in the face. So I choose one of the other options and win the roll. So does he just let it go and move on with the convo so we can finish the dang flashpoint? No. He freaking stops the convo, says "whoa" like I just did something really disgusting, and restarts it. I point out that not everyone's misogynistic. He and his friend kick me. Kick me right out of the group for not going along with the woman-beating hilarity.

 

It's not enough that I have to constantly listen to and see this scene? Now I get kicked from a FP at the very end of it for not going along with it? Is Bioware trying to make this game as unfriendly an environment for women as possible? Because nothing about that is cool.

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While I agree that the people you ran with were misogynist, I have difficulty seeing that conversation choice itself like that. Many conversation choices in many of the imperial classes have something similar. Slap him, punch her, torture this one. I don't know how many times I had the option to punch someone during my agent's storyline simply because they were making unnecessary noise. That conversation choice doesn't exist to alienate female gamers but is rather, in my opinion, just another part of the sith theme.
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I hear you. Sure, this same situation could have been played out with a man--that is, a "someone shut this guy up" option, where the man gets pistol-whipped. But it's not--it's a woman. Now, I know there are plenty of places elsewhere in the game where players are given the option to smack/torture both male and female NPCs. But consider the following:

1) This is a mission that most players will repeat many times, and it is necessarily multiplayer. If it were a one-time quest suitable for solo play, someone might chuckle (if they were so inclined), move on, and forget about it. The repeatability allows the negative behavior to grow and turn into habit. The multiplayer aspect allows like-minded players to feed off of each other, and pulls along with them even those who disagree. The prominence of this conversation makes it problematic.

2) This game was not released into a vacuum. It was released into a culture in which violence against women, by men, is a huge problem (while the reverse happens as well, it is much less common). It was released into a video gaming culture with a terrible reputation for treatment of women--as characters in the games, as players, and as industry professionals. I'm sure I don't need to get into that here. Because of this culture, the violence displayed here against a female character is going to be interpreted differently, and it is going to be more damaging than a similar situation played out with a male character. A man gets pistol whipped, people may laugh. A woman gets pistol whipped, people may laugh...and talk about rape, and love the situation so much that it's worth restarting a conversation and kicking a group member over it.

 

I don't think whoever wrote the scene intended it as a misogynistic moment--these are bad guys after all, blah blah. And if it just went by in a one-time class mission or something, then I don't think it would be a huge deal. But they essentially made violence against a woman (outside of fair combat, of course--it is a fight-centric game) a repeatable group activity that has apparently become a highlight for some players. That is a mistake that shows a lack of foresight on BioWare's part, and unfortunately it helps bring out a negative aspect of our community. The bad ones may be a small proportion of the community, but they are vocal and noxious. The most the community can do is choose other dialogue options and speak out against things like those awful guys joking about "******" the Jedi. It's probably too much to ask groupfinder pugs to choose other dialogue options, though it could be worth mentioning to guildies if you're so inclined. BioWare...I know they have other things that are probably higher priority for them, so I don't really see them doing anything. I'd say get to level 55 and kiss Boarding Party goodbye--but the fact is, you shouldn't have to.

 

TL;DR: This game is being played in a culture in which violence against women is a problem, and in a gaming culture that has a terrible reputation for treatment of women--characters and players. Because of this culture the conversation described is not exactly the same regardless of the gender of the subject; even if you don't see it as gender-specific, others do. The repeatability and group nature of this conversation combined with these negative aspects of the culture breed problematic behaviors in some and serve to marginalize others. It is an unfortunate situation.

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While I agree that the people you ran with were misogynist, I have difficulty seeing that conversation choice itself like that. Many conversation choices in many of the imperial classes have something similar. Slap him, punch her, torture this one. I don't know how many times I had the option to punch someone during my agent's storyline simply because they were making unnecessary noise. That conversation choice doesn't exist to alienate female gamers but is rather, in my opinion, just another part of the sith theme.

People are welcome to have as much fun as they want slapping, punching, and torturing NPCs in their own personal story missions, but repeatable group content gets more prominence and subjects players to other people's choices. In an ideal world, the gender of the NPC wouldn't matter here. However, given the OP's experience, it seems the negative treatment of women by a contingent of the gaming community has seeped into the situation, making the gender matter. The conversation choice doesn't exist to alienate female gamers, but it appears it can be used that way. Something to consider.

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id laugh if it was a guy too; its about the pistol whipping, not the gender

I'm glad that you see it that way. Given the rape comments witnessed by the OP, it seems not everyone thinks the same way. If a conversation is problematic for a portion of the community, does that make it a problem? It's worth discussing, at least.

 

+1 good sir.... and OP is debbie downer.

Given that the forums are full of complaints about basically every aspect of the game, I do hope you've replied to all of those threads with similar comments of the OP being a "debbie downer." Go to the bug reports, even, and have yourself a good time. My point is, telling someone they shouldn't be upset usually doesn't itself fix the problem or make them less upset. It's not very constructive.

 

Quit looking for reasons to get offended. Don't place blame on Bioware for players saying things you don't like. In life, people will say things you don't like often, so get used to it. Ignore exists if you just can't stomach seeing offensive text.

People aren't looking for reasons to get offended. You might notice that the OP wasn't exactly enjoying the situation, so why would she be looking for reasons to not enjoy herself? BioWare doesn't make people say terrible things, but they do have a hand in crafting the game environment in which players interact. Of course in life people will say things you don't like, and we do get used to it, but those people should get used to us fighting back. Freedom of speech includes the freedom to call people ******es. A gym has the right to make rules of conduct for the people who come there to work out or play, and the patrons of the gym have the right to protest if they perceive unacceptable behavior. The same is true here. Ignore exists but it is a band-aid to put on after the fact. Some damage has already been done, and it won't prevent future damage by others. Maybe this discussion could serve to help prevent future damage.

Edited by CommunityDroidEN
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If you have to type that much analysis about a couple of morons and try to assign blame to the nondiscriminatory violence in a video game cutscene, you need better things to do with your time.

 

People aren't looking for reasons to get offended.

 

Yes they are. If the captain were a man we'd hear complaints that not enough women are represented in positions of authority or presented as capable.

 

There's literally no way to win with social justice warriors.

Edited by FridgeLM
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so what, remove any scenes that involve the beating of women? this is an empire that practices genocide, slavery, racism and other pointless cruelties. Does it seem at all realistic for them to decide to not hit women, especially their enemy that was about to kill them all?

Or should we just remove female antagonists entirely, since the rape comments started when she first showed up. Then people would complain bioware was being sexist.

 

basically, you can't control other people, and censorship doesn't work.

 

If something offends you, spacebar through it or close chat. Being offended doesn't mean that you have a right to have things changed to suit your tastes

 

And out of curiosity, is the cutscene is false emperor where you can choke the animoid, anti-male or anti-alien? I'm thinking of making a sarcastic complaint.

Edited by akabane_k
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I sympathize with you for having to deal with a player like that. Oh, if he wants to hate women, that's his right, as it is ours to condemn him for it; however, trying to force the way the conversation unfolded, just to rub it in, was a bridge too far in my opinion.

 

That being said, I think we dehumanize men and infantilize women when we regard violence against women as worse than, rather than equal to, violence against men. And I think we do a disservice to women when we say that women need to be protected from the portrayal of fantasy violence perpetrated against women, as it is just another way of saying that women are weaker than men, who do not require that protection. I hope we can agree that violence against anyone is bad, and that women do not require special protections based on reasons that are destined to be inherently insulting to women.

 

Fantasy violence is what it is. I can enjoy winning dark side rolls without revealing myself as, or becoming, a monster. While the player in question clearly enjoyed the pistol-whipping for his own hateful reasons, there is nothing about the action itself that is inherently worse than the endless killing or torturing of either gender we do in this game. (I'd be interested in seeing how often we are able to torture or beat up men in this game compared to women. I'd actually be impressed if there wasn't a sizable difference in gender representation in such scenarios.)

 

By the way, you know what else isn't really funny (when looked at objectively, because society clearly considers it to be funny, much like a certain thing that happens to men in prison all the time), and is exceptionally painful when it occurs? A kick to the groin. And yet it's celebrated in the game with its own skill :)

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I sympathize with you for having to deal with a player like that. Oh, if he wants to hate women, that's his right, as it is ours to condemn him for it; however, trying to force the way the conversation unfolded, just to rub it in, was a bridge too far in my opinion.

 

That being said, I think we dehumanize men and infantilize women when we regard violence against women as worse than, rather than equal to, violence against men. And I think we do a disservice to women when we say that women need to be protected from the portrayal of fantasy violence perpetrated against women, as it is just another way of saying that women are weaker than men, who do not require that protection. I hope we can agree that violence against anyone is bad, and that women do not require special protections based on reasons that are destined to be inherently insulting to women.

 

Fantasy violence is what it is. I can enjoy winning dark side rolls without revealing myself as, or becoming, a monster. While the player in question clearly enjoyed the pistol-whipping for his own hateful reasons, there is nothing about the action itself that is inherently worse than the endless killing or torturing of either gender we do in this game. (I'd be interested in seeing how often we are able to torture or beat up men in this game compared to women. I'd actually be impressed if there wasn't a sizable difference in gender representation in such scenarios.)

 

By the way, you know what else isn't really funny (when looked at objectively, because society clearly considers it to be funny, much like a certain thing that happens to men in prison all the time), and is exceptionally painful when it occurs? A kick to the groin. And yet it's celebrated in the game with its own skill :)

 

I agree entirely with this sentiment, particularly the second paragraph, you just beat me to writing something along similar lines.

 

That's not to say there shouldn't be a discussion about it mind.

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Yeah... I'm like Light 4 or 5 cause I was romancing Vette. I did the option to hit the captain like, once, got my kick out of it, replayed and just took the Light option to capture her or whatever.

 

I agree that people shouldn't laugh at that cause it's a woman. I just thought it was an ironic and slightly amusing ending for one playthrough. But don't go like "I'm hitting women, har har har." If it was a guy, I would've pommel-whipped him, too. I don't discriminate against anybody in the game. I beat them all up :D Just joking, but seriously, don't repeatedly make comments like that.

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I sympathize with the OP who apparently ran into some pretty awful people. While I don't think most people who choose that dialogue option do it for misogynistic reasons, I guess I can see how it empowers certain pathetic individuals, and even though I'm not a woman, I would also feel very uncomfortable in that situation.

 

Would have reported them for what they said and the fact that they kicked you for no good reason.

 

I won't be picking that option in the future I think. To me it's just another annoying NPC so the thought that it has anything to do with beating women in general never really crossed my mind. However, if it's perceived this way, I'll pick something else.

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I know you meant that as a joke, but the fact that you made the joke is part of the problem. If someone on the forum complained about a perceived racist aspect of the game, would you say, "OP's slave master shouldn't have let him in the house today" or "OP shouldn't be posting in here, he needs to go sit down in the back of the forum"? I hope not.

 

Yes absolutely! I love offending people in this game. I think it's funny how seriously people take this game.

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Can't say I ever viewed the flashpoint dialogue that way, but the behaviour of the people in that group is disgusting. You lasted longer than I did, at least. I'd have bailed at the 'hurr hurr let's rape her' bullcrap.

 

As for the responsibility of the dialogue, well. Again, I'd not go so far as to say it's mysognistic myself, but I would venture that Empire choices, in general, seem to have a lot more involving individual suffering - torturing and murdering people for no apparent reason, gloating whilst you do it - than Republic does, and whilst I'm not going to make any generalisations on Empire playerbases and say it's true of everyone or even a majority, them seemingly attracting certain kinds of people is one of the major reasons I demoted my characters there to singleplayer content.

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Can't say I ever viewed the flashpoint dialogue that way, but the behaviour of the people in that group is disgusting. You lasted longer than I did, at least. I'd have bailed at the 'hurr hurr let's rape her' bullcrap.

 

As for the responsibility of the dialogue, well. Again, I'd not go so far as to say it's mysognistic myself, but I would venture that Empire choices, in general, seem to have a lot more involving individual suffering - torturing and murdering people for no apparent reason, gloating whilst you do it - than Republic does, and whilst I'm not going to make any generalisations on Empire playerbases and say it's true of everyone or even a majority, them seemingly attracting certain kinds of people is one of the major reasons I demoted my characters there to singleplayer content.

 

Meh. I just stay within my guild or existing friends to run FPs. At least I know that they're joking when they make those comments like "lets rape her", etc.

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whilst I'm not going to make any generalisations on Empire playerbases and say it's true of everyone or even a majority, them seemingly attracting certain kinds of people is one of the major reasons I demoted my characters there to singleplayer content.

 

I know just what you mean. I recently saw a newbie ask for help on Imp Balmorra. He was repeatedly lectured in general about the Sith code and how he was weak for even asking (and how others can solo it). It's this kind of idiocy that sometimes makes me wish I had stayed on the Rep side with all my characters. However, I'm not sure it's actually better there. At least they don't go on and on about the Sith code though.

Edited by thecoffeecup
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I know just what you mean. I recently saw a newbie ask for help on Imp Balmorra. He was repeatedly lectured in general about the Sith code and how he was weak for even asking (and how others can solo it). It's this kind of idiocy that sometimes makes me wish I had stayed on the Rep side with all my characters. However, I'm not sure it's actually better there. At least they don't go on and on about the Sith code though.

 

I agree, but I still play the Imp for the storyline and the companion romance and whatnot. It's funny to see all the morons going on about the Sith code, and then they try to duel my lvl 45 Marauder before they realize I'm lvl 45. So, I win :D

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I sympathize with the OP who apparently ran into some pretty awful people. While I don't think most people who choose that dialogue option do it for misogynistic reasons, I guess I can see how it empowers certain pathetic individuals, and even though I'm not a woman, I would also feel very uncomfortable in that situation.

 

Would have reported them for what they said and the fact that they kicked you for no good reason.

 

I won't be picking that option in the future I think. To me it's just another annoying NPC so the thought that it has anything to do with beating women in general never really crossed my mind. However, if it's perceived this way, I'll pick something else.

 

This is pretty much my viewpoint too. I think it's much more about the people you were playing with than the situation. To be honest, I would have left the group the second that gang rape joke came up. I'm not a particularly feminist woman, but that sort of thing is never funny.

 

But asking Bioware to change something because a minority of freak losers get a kick out of it that they shouldn't isn't right either. Because they would have to get rid of all the violence against men too, to be fair to everyone. The majority of the people that play don't get that sort of enjoyment out of it, and games should not have to remove stuff because of the ones that do. That goes for everything in life in my opinion.

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When I do the last conversation, I always have me and my friend choose the LS option just to make the other dude who wants to hit her extremely mad.

 

And then we proceed to laugh at him, end the convo, and kick him from the team.

 

It's harsh, but we just love to troll around with the trolls.

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I really don't get this, you are mad at Bioware because some idiots decided to behaves like jerks ?

The flashpoint you ran 15 minutes before arriving to that convo is centered around you "killing" (not hitting or mistreating, but killing!) hoards of men and women, but head butting the captain with a rifle is the only thing you find questionable and misogynistic ? Just because of some idiot sitting behind his PC ?

If so then you are employing double standards and you should complain about every dark side choice that leads to an NPC being mistreated.

 

In fact, I find portrayal of women in this game to be fair. They are portrayed as senators, leaders, generals, military personnel, thieves, spies, murderers, heroes, there is no discrimination between how men and women are portrayed. The misogyny is only within you and not on the screen!

Edited by znihilist
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I really don't get this, you are mad at Bioware because some idiots decided to behaves like jerks ?

The flashpoint you ran 15 minutes before arriving to that convo is centered around you "killing" (not hitting or mistreating, but killing!) hoards of men and women, but head butting the captain with a rifle is the only thing you find questionable and misogynistic ? Just because of some idiot sitting behind his PC ?

If so then you are employing double standards and you should complain about every dark side choice that leads to an NPC being mistreated.

 

In fact, I find portrayal of women in this game to be fair. They are portrayed as senators, leaders, generals, military personnel, thieves, spies, murderers, heroes, there is no discrimination between how men and women are portrayed. The misogyny is only within you and not on the screen!

 

I think it's more of the context at which they do the action.

 

Like they probably laugh and say crap like "Wish I could do that in real life LOLZ" or something stupid like that.

 

I've seen it happen so many times.

 

It might be a bit double standardish, but it's extremely annoying to see it. Usually when I see it happen, my troll mode activates, and it all goes downhill from there.

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I think it's more of the context at which they do the action.

 

Like they probably laugh and say crap like "Wish I could do that in real life LOLZ" or something stupid like that.

 

I've seen it happen so many times.

 

It might be a bit double standardish, but it's extremely annoying to see it. Usually when I see it happen, my troll mode activates, and it all goes downhill from there.

 

This.

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