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June PvP Report

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bladech's Avatar


bladech
07.16.2019 , 10:30 AM | #81
Quote: Originally Posted by KendraP View Post
I love how you're all steaming a guy for something you all told me was impossible/didn't exist even though I had personally heard it happening.

Choosing when to queue based on prior knowledge enabled by in game mechanisms isn't, technically, cheating. It is only cheating, per the rules, if he purposely looses for his friend. If all he's doing is queuing on a new/less used toon while his high rated friend also happens to he queueing, technically, that's not cheating.

He can't guarantee that he will be with his friend. If he consistently does, it's not against the rules, it's simple queue manipulation.
Iam glad someone understands this. This is no difference as when some skilled healer asks his friend to queue as healer knowing his friend isnt that good on healing class while not asking him to throw of course or when someone saw a bad tank queueing for mats and relogs on his tank to farm him or when operative see that there are heal games going on so he fast relogs to his marauder and gets in heal games while everyone knows marauder is a better class for heal games than oper. Or when dot oper asks his friends or anyone else on fleet to queue tanks since this spec is pretty good in tanks games due to aoe pressure and healing support it can provide. Or as we do just queue on lowrated characters when our friends queue on highrated to greatly increase chance to get in one team and both get elo.

In all these cases NO ONE isnt throwing for anybody or even asks for it. No tos breaking, no punishment, impossible to prove anything. Just manipulations with dumb matchmaking system.

How and for what do you think that well-known manipulative guild on DM server appeared? Of course thanks to obvious matchmaking system. If you want to fix it remove matchmaking based on elo, NOTHING ELSE you can do.

bladech's Avatar


bladech
07.16.2019 , 10:31 AM | #82
Quote: Originally Posted by JediMasterAlex View Post
(bold added for emphasis)
NO WINTRADING AND NO THROWING. CaPs locked it for you

JediMasterAlex's Avatar


JediMasterAlex
07.16.2019 , 10:43 AM | #83
Quote: Originally Posted by bladech View Post
This is no difference as when some skilled healer asks his friend to queue as healer knowing his friend isnt that good on healing class while not asking him to throw of course
If they both queue with the understanding that the better healer is getting boosted by the worse healer, you're right, there is no difference, and that is also as bad as wintrading.

Quote: Originally Posted by bladech View Post
or when someone saw a bad tank queueing for mats and relogs on his tank to farm him
That is completely different. There is no coordination, no intent to boost anyone's rating.

Quote: Originally Posted by bladech View Post
or when operative see that there are heal games going on so he fast relogs to his marauder and gets in heal games while everyone knows marauder is a better class for heal games than oper.
Again, completely different. No coordination, no intent.

Quote: Originally Posted by bladech View Post
Or when dot oper asks his friends or anyone else on fleet to queue tanks since this spec is pretty good in tanks games due to aoe pressure and healing support it can provide. Or as we do just queue on lowrated characters when our friends queue on highrated to greatly increase chance to get in one team and both get elo.
So, again, this is wintrading. As soon as you start coordinating with other people or conspiring to boost people by queue syncing, you are in the wrong.

Can you really not see the difference? You really shouldn't be allowed to queue ranked if you can't.

Quote: Originally Posted by bladech View Post
In all these cases NO ONE isnt throwing for anybody or even asks for it. No tos breaking
Just blatantly not true. See responses above.

Quote: Originally Posted by bladech View Post
impossible to prove anything.
So here's the real issue. Except you've admitted it on the forums. Oops.

Quote: Originally Posted by bladech View Post
NO WINTRADING AND NO THROWING. CaPs locked it for you
No puppet, no puppet. You're the puppet.

KendraP's Avatar


KendraP
07.16.2019 , 11:07 AM | #84
Isn't the intent of practically everyone who does ranked to increase their rating?

The very fact /who exists undermines ranked, even if you are queueing solo. If you have, at any point, decided not to queue because you knew someone who could beat you was queueing, you're undermining the queue.

Also, I've been posting about queue manipulation for literal months, if not a year. The argument we had recently was not my first post on the subject.

Using game mechanics to manipulate the system in such ways undermines the meaningfulness of ratings, yes. But it is not against the rules. I mean, someone had to code the ability for you to open the /who menu and look for arenas, right? Someone coded the system that matches low ranked toons with high ranked ones. Working within that system to make it better for you is simple human nature. Does it undermine the intent? Yes. But its not something ban-worthy.

foxmob's Avatar


foxmob
07.16.2019 , 11:35 AM | #85
Quote: Originally Posted by merovejec View Post
Heh just check Group ranked ratings, if like gold tier will be 1750 its ridiculous that people will get top 3 reward with 1500 rating
I don't follow your point. could you explain it to me? also, the exact numbers requirements would necessarily have to be different for solo and group as they already are in elo tiers. but other than that, I'm not sure what you're saying.
Krack

JediMasterAlex's Avatar


JediMasterAlex
07.16.2019 , 11:39 AM | #86
Quote: Originally Posted by KendraP View Post
Isn't the intent of practically everyone who does ranked to increase their rating?

The very fact /who exists undermines ranked, even if you are queueing solo. If you have, at any point, decided not to queue because you knew someone who could beat you was queueing, you're undermining the queue.

Also, I've been posting about queue manipulation for literal months, if not a year. The argument we had recently was not my first post on the subject.

Using game mechanics to manipulate the system in such ways undermines the meaningfulness of ratings, yes. But it is not against the rules. I mean, someone had to code the ability for you to open the /who menu and look for arenas, right? Someone coded the system that matches low ranked toons with high ranked ones. Working within that system to make it better for you is simple human nature. Does it undermine the intent? Yes. But its not something ban-worthy.
Add another reason to the list of why I'm glad you don't queue ranked. Everyone's intent is to increase their OWN rating...and they are only allowed to do so legitimately. in Bladech's case, the intent wasn't to increase his own rating, but to boost his high rated friend.

I've already explained to you why you're wrong about /who. Go back and read that other thread. If you are queueing as an individual dps, nothing you can do with /who is going to make a big difference, and it isn't actually manipulating anything, not to mention the totally legitimate, non-underhanded ways of using it.

What Bladech has described involves manipulating the queue with multiple people in a coordinated fashion. How can you not see the difference? You don't think that conspiring to queue sync and boost people should be ban-worthy? You think it's the same as typing in /who and merely looking at the names of people queueing? People on this forum still shock me sometimes. This is such a simple issue.

JediMasterAlex's Avatar


JediMasterAlex
07.16.2019 , 11:40 AM | #87
Quote: Originally Posted by foxmob View Post
I don't follow your point. could you explain it to me? also, the exact numbers requirements would necessarily have to be different for solo and group as they already are in elo tiers. but other than that, I'm not sure what you're saying.
He's saying that at this rate some players will get top 3 without having reached the rating to get gold.

foxmob's Avatar


foxmob
07.16.2019 , 11:48 AM | #88
Quote: Originally Posted by JediMasterAlex View Post
He's saying that at this rate some players will get top 3 without having reached the rating to get gold.
ah. that's a balance and population issue. rules changes aren't going to help that.

although, if the system were more rigorous, medals AND top 3 should always have been relative to AC and even spec b/c, for example, it's masochistic to even queue solo on a PT, so a dps at 1350 with 50 matches is hella good, imo. (or really bad at win trading! lul)
Krack

KendraP's Avatar


KendraP
07.16.2019 , 12:50 PM | #89
The point is the queue is blatantly manipulatable on many counts. You can see who's queueing, we know the system tries to make fair matches, etc. Knowledge is power after all, and in this case knowledge can be applied to make things work better for you.

Should people be banned for doing something designed into the game? How do you solve the fact that, due to chasing off people like myself, the population will not support 8 people of similar elo (again, 4 per team).

Their choices are:
1. Don't make a match
2. Match the low elo with the other low elo against a high elo team
3. Attempt to balance it by putting the high elo with the low elo.

The issue is a population one. If there were more people queuing what bladech was doing would not be possible.

JediMasterAlex's Avatar


JediMasterAlex
07.16.2019 , 01:06 PM | #90
Quote: Originally Posted by KendraP View Post
Knowledge is power after all, and in this case knowledge can be applied to make things work better for you.
What Bladech describes has nothing to do with mere knowledge. They are actively manipulating the system in ways designed to boost a certain player's rating. They are operating outside of the intended ranked mechanics. They are behaving in an unsportsmanlike fashion. They are as guilty as traditional wintraders.

All of that is fundamentally different from just seeing who is queueing and deciding personally whether you want to queue or not. Why are you still trying to equate them? It's like saying murder and jaywalking are both crimes so everyone is equally guilty.

Quote: Originally Posted by KendraP View Post
Should people be banned for doing something designed into the game?
Just because something is possible within the game doesn't mean it shouldn't be bannable... Traditional wintrading, where one player throws for another player, is also possible within the design of the game. PEDs exist on earth. They are "designed into the game," yet it's still cheating to use them. Any kind of coordination between players is antithetical to the concept of solo ranked. I really don't get your point here.