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The REAL Most Powerful Revisited


Beniboybling

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Enlightenment isnt what it is in game, no, it's a new level of power entirely.

 

Doesn't mean we have to discuss Corran Horn, Tutaminis is a relatively unknown feat, we don't know how much power you need to perform it, but we know Force Sever takes massive energy, which is why it's a bonus for Surik.

 

As for the Malachor thing, the Triumvirate weren't negatively affected. Thing is, Sion wasn't overly powerful just a great Duelist, wheras Surik was a fantastic duelist.

 

Traya was on top of Surik in terms of force ability, but she couldn't use Force Drain. Surik kept her on the defensive using her superior Saber Skills, but couldnt attack with the Force because she didn't want to Kill Traya, instead, she severed her from the force, so basically... She out Dueled Traya, that's it.

 

At least, that's how I saw it.

 

Tutaminis is the reason why we have put people like Revan and Sateele on even footing with Saba for Control to begin with because its understood you need about equal power to the enemy to use it. Corran Horns displays of Tutaminis easily outstrip even Revan, but he cant TK at all because thats just his natural enemy. Saba is stronger then he is, my point is Natural Talents ARENT indicative of the Force Users power as abilities they are Naturally better with generally go above and beyond their USUAL level of skill and power.

 

 

The other problem is if Surik was able to beat both of these people being powered by the most powerful Dark side Nexus where she was feeling the Nauseating effects of and able to win in that condition and yet still lose to Nyriss on LESS powerful Nexus where she was feeling the Effects far LESS then there is no reason what so ever to conclude that Nyriss isnt straight more powerful then her, Nor is there any reason to conclude that every member of the Dark Council is in fact more powerful then any member of the Triumviate baring MAYBE Nyhlis. Traya has Force Lightning, she has Force Speed and she has Force Valor and the ability to augment herself Physically. If she was pulling on that Nexus and is as powerful as you guys claim while Meetra was Nauseous from it then she should have easily beaten Meetra in the same way Nyriss did. As it stands i see NO reason what so ever to conclude she was stronger in KoToR II then she was when she faced Nyriss. In fact it sounds to reverse that she was in a worse state when she faced Traya then when she faced Nyriss.

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OK, I decided to go ahead with my Obi-Wan post.

 

Obi-Wan Kenobi doesn’t get the respect he deserves simply because his Force defenses are not as impregnable as his lightsaber defense. I don’t care if no one listens to me, but I have to say something.

 

Obi-Wan Kenobi was much more powerful than he is given credit for. His mastery of Force Valor, for instance, was beyond impressive. While his physical fortitude could be attributed to his own physical capabilities, it is very clear that his strength in Force Valor was what kept him going after taking brutal beatings from the likes of Durge (you know, the guy that dunked a Jedi Master in lava and was practically laughing about it).

 

During the mission to Ohma-D’un, Obi-Wan Kenobi was given a concussion (an assumption on my part, but his skill was cracked) by Durge’s electric bola and then almost drowned by the Gen’Dai. He then fought Asajj Ventress and a group of undead Gungans while also suffering from a deadly chemical that was quite literally melting him, as noted by Master Glaive here:

 

”Obi-Wan, I don’t know how much I have left… it’s taking all my strength just to keep my lungs from melting.”

 

In another example of Force Valor, Obi-Wan suffered from weeks of torture at the hands of Asajj Ventress on Rattatak, where he was subjected to maggot infestations, verbal taunts, and all kinds of physical torture. At the same time his ability to use the Force was impeded by a Sith mask that disrupted his ability to concentrate. After being freed he was able to overpower two mercenaries and engage Ventress again, this time he more than held his own and even appeared to be winning before fleeing with Alpha.

 

He could even boost his physical strength to the point that he could bend steel with his bare hands.

 

(If this argument continues for another week or so, I should have more evidence to support this area)

 

Kenobi was a master of Tutaminis, using it to deflect many different kinds of attacks, including fire, projectiles, and barrages of blaster fire with his bare hands. Even though Force lightning was not in his ability to defend against, he was still a master of the ability.

 

Obi-Wan was also a master of the Jedi Mind Trick, unlocking many abilities such as Dominate Mind and Beast Trick, the latter he used to manipulate multiple beasts with some concentration.

 

His mastery of Force Sense was also incredible. As noted in the Revenge of the Sith novelization, he could feel everything around him including people, droids, and even the fabric of the Chancellor’s clothing.

 

Kenobi’s offensive abilities were also incredibly powerful.

 

He was a master of telekinesis, mastering it to its highest levels. His Force Pushes were exceptionally powerful. He could even match Darth Vader with his strength in this ability (Vader, it should be noted, was considered one of the most powerful Force users of the era and galactic history). This is beyond impressive. Further, he mastered Force Push to the point that he could use Force Repulse with ease. He has also used Force Crush on multiple occasions.

 

His ability to move objects ranged from the manipulation of many small objects or the movement of incredibly heavy objects with ease. On multiple occasions he has moved starfighters with little difficulty. The first was during the Battle of Kamino (when he was a mere Jedi Knight at the time). His starfighter had been shot down and he was plummeting towards the ocean. With little difficulty, Kenobi used the Force to adjust his craft’s flight path to land it safely in the water (it should also be noted that an alternate result ended with Kenobi’s death, as predicted by Anakin Skywalker). The second was later during the war when he moved another starfighter with little difficulty.

 

Kenobi was also able to manipulate cybernetics, as he showed against Darth Vader on Mustafar.

 

There! I’ve said my piece, now let the chips fall where they may.

 

On a side-note, Sel, you read the Jabiim series, right?

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Looks to me like Ya Kenobi has Valor feats on Par with that of Saba, but Saba beats him in Sense and is on a similar Level of TK. All-in-all they are pretty darn close all things considered. I am questioning Meetra's spot right now as the Triumviate is for me now being put under a giant micro scope and arent measuring up to what I remember them as from the game, thanks to some of these quotes from the Novel.
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Tutaminis is the reason why we have put people like Revan and Sateele on even footing with Saba for Control to begin with because its understood you need about equal power to the enemy to use it. Corran Horns displays of Tutaminis easily outstrip even Revan, but he cant TK at all because thats just his natural enemy. Saba is stronger then he is, my point is Natural Talents ARENT indicative of the Force Users power as abilities they are Naturally better with generally go above and beyond their USUAL level of skill and power.

 

 

The other problem is if Surik was able to beat both of these people being powered by the most powerful Dark side Nexus where she was feeling the Nauseating effects of and able to win in that condition and yet still lose to Nyriss on LESS powerful Nexus where she was feeling the Effects far LESS then there is no reason what so ever to conclude that Nyriss isnt straight more powerful then her, Nor is there any reason to conclude that every member of the Dark Council is in fact more powerful then any member of the Triumviate baring MAYBE Nyhlis. Traya has Force Lightning, she has Force Speed and she has Force Valor and the ability to augment herself Physically. If she was pulling on that Nexus and is as powerful as you guys claim while Meetra was Nauseous from it then she should have easily beaten Meetra in the same way Nyriss did. As it stands i see NO reason what so ever to conclude she was stronger in KoToR II then she was when she faced Nyriss. In fact it sounds to reverse that she was in a worse state when she faced Traya then when she faced Nyriss.

 

Or we could chalk up Meetra's performance in Revan to the failings of an author who clearly has little knowledge of the character, the lore surrounding that character, and most lore in general.

 

That's what I do. I mean, I would post my own thoughts on the matter, but I doubt anyone would listen to me. (Does anyone else find that surprising?)

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Looks to me like Ya Kenobi has Valor feats on Par with that of Saba, but Saba beats him in Sense and is on a similar Level of TK. All-in-all they are pretty darn close all things considered. I am questioning Meetra's spot right now as the Triumviate is for me now being put under a giant micro scope and arent measuring up to what I remember them as from the game, thanks to some of these quotes from the Novel.

 

I think Kenobi gets the Control and Alter edges between him and Saba.

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Or we could chalk up Meetra's performance in Revan to the failings of an author who clearly has little knowledge of the character, the lore surrounding that character, and most lore in general.

 

That's what I do. I mean, I would post my own thoughts on the matter, but I doubt anyone would listen to me. (Does anyone else find that surprising?)

 

Its still C-cannon and technically goes above the game in general. So whether you or any one else APPROVES means little. The problem I am having is one thing doesnt match up to the other. People here seem to almost Worship the Triumviate and yet one of its strongest members Traya was beaten while being empowered by the strongest DS nexus while her opponent was GREATLY weakened by its affects. Later same person on less powerful Nexus feeling LESS of the affects is beaten by a different Dark side user. In the end there is only 1 thing to conclude. Nyriss>Traya, and NONE of the people in KoToR II were any where near as powerful as people seem to think here.

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I think Kenobi gets the Control and Alter edges between him and Saba.

 

I dont know about that, maybe control thanks to Tutaminis but their Valor Feats are nearly Identical, the difference is Saba heals and Kenobi knows tutaminis so I am not sure there.

 

And again their Alter feats are nearly identical as well bar Kenobi's push so i MIGHT give him the edge there, but I dont think it would by any means be a large one. So I guess maybe he gets the edge in these catagories but it would be such a small edge it would almost not be worth noting. While Saba I think would go above and beyond Kenobi in Sense enough that the overall both are so dang close its nearly impossible to call. At least thats how I see it.

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Its still C-cannon and technically goes above the game in general. So whether you or any one else APPROVES means little. The problem I am having is one thing doesnt match up to the other. People here seem to almost Worship the Triumviate and yet one of its strongest members Traya was beaten while being empowered by the strongest DS nexus while her opponent was GREATLY weakened by its affects. Later same person on less powerful Nexus feeling LESS of the affects is beaten by a different Dark side user. In the end there is only 1 thing to conclude. Nyriss>Traya, and NONE of the people in KoToR II were any where near as powerful as people seem to think here.

 

I don't care if its C-canon! Chapter 3 left me crying in a corner! How am I supposed to read the rest of it?

 

Anyway, I think I'll leave this for Sel and Rayla.

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I dont know about that, maybe control thanks to Tutaminis but their Valor Feats are nearly Identical, the difference is Saba heals and Kenobi knows tutaminis so I am not sure there.

 

And again their Alter feats are nearly identical as well bar Kenobi's push so i MIGHT give him the edge there, but I dont think it would by any means be a large one. So I guess maybe he gets the edge in these catagories but it would be such a small edge it would almost not be worth noting. While Saba I think would go above and beyond Kenobi in Sense enough that the overall both are so dang close its nearly impossible to call. At least thats how I see it.

 

I think Kenobi gets the edge. To be honest, I can't recall much for Saba that puts her above Kenobi in Alter.

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The other problem is if Surik was able to beat both of these people being powered by the most powerful Dark side Nexus where she was feeling the Nauseating effects of and able to win in that condition and yet still lose to Nyriss on LESS powerful Nexus where she was feeling the Effects far LESS then there is no reason what so ever to conclude that Nyriss isnt straight more powerful then her.

 

I don't believe you understand the theory around this whole thing, though i have to say, we have all been over this MANY times before and we have all reached consensus on this topic.

 

Firstly, Meetra being a Wound in the Force and given that she wasn't completely corrupted on Malachor V then it is clear that her Wound protected her from the worst of Malachor V and this is evident when she used her Enlightened state to beat the Triumvirate forces, she wasn't massively effected but she was certainly not at full power, her ability to center herself saved her and allowed her to unleash her full power here.

 

Secondly, the circumstances around the Nyriss debate are much more complicated than that, You have to take into consideration the near fatal damage she suffered at Nathema, something that was so horrible of an experience that she actually felt comfort when she sensed the Dark Side miasma of energy as the Ebon Hawk landed in Kaas City.

 

Given that it is also canonical fact that Dark Side nexi of various degrees can greatly effect a Light Sider's ability to call upon the Force, such as events when other Jedi have traversed Dromund Kaas and also felt either full on corruption or a total inability to use the Light Side, then you begin to see the issue here.

 

Where the Exile was still able to call upon her full command of the Light Side when protected by her own 'wound' at Malachor V the source of the Wounds in the Force which is the only explanation as to why she wasn't corrupted heavily like literally every other person that traversed the planet. After spending months completing her re-training as a Jedi Master on Dantooine her Wound in the Force healed completely and then she went to see Bastila.

 

So when she arrived on Dromund Kaas she no longer enjoyed the luxury of being protected from such anomalies, instead her ability to use the Force was very evidently beyond her capabilities as she used almost no Force Powers at all in any of her major combats and considering that she suffered almost fatally in her experience on Nathema, she clearly wasn't anywhere near her peak abilities.

 

So TL;DR:

 

At Malachor V she had an innate protection from it's full effect due to being a Wound in the Force herself allowing her to still call upon the Light Side of the Force and even find a center in herself to focus on. At Dromund Kaas however, being a light-sider, she was incapable of calling on the Force properly, much like many other Jedi were unable to whilst on the planet.

Edited by LadyKulvax
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I don't believe you understand the theory around this whole thing, though i have to say, we have all been over this MANY times before and we have all reached consensus on this topic.

 

Firstly, Meetra being a Wound in the Force and given that she wasn't completely corrupted on Malachor V then it is clear that her Wound protected her from the worst of Malachor V and this is evident when she used her Enlightened state to beat the Triumvirate forces, she wasn't massively effected but she was certainly not at full power, her ability to center herself saved her and allowed her to unleash her full power here.

 

Secondly, the circumstances around the Nyriss debate are much more complicated than that, You have to take into consideration the near fatal damage she suffered at Nathema, something that was so horrible of an experience that she actually felt comfort when she sensed the Dark Side miasma of energy as the Ebon Hawk landed in Kaas City.

 

Given that it is also canonical fact that Dark Side nexi of various degrees can greatly effect a Light Sider's ability to call upon the Force, such as events when other Jedi have traversed Dromund Kaas and also felt either full on corruption or a total inability to use the Light Side, then you begin to see the issue here.

 

Where the Exile was still able to call upon her full command of the Light Side when protected by her own 'wound' at Malachor V the source of the Wounds in the Force which is the only explanation as to why she wasn't corrupted heavily like literally every other person that traversed the planet. After spending months completing her re-training as a Jedi Master on Dantooine her Wound in the Force healed completely and then she went to see Bastila.

 

So when she arrived on Dromund Kaas she no longer enjoyed the luxury of being protected from such anomalies, instead her ability to use the Force was very evidently beyond her capabilities as she used almost no Force Powers at all in any of her major combats and considering that she suffered almost fatally in her experience on Nathema, she clearly wasn't anywhere near her peak abilities.

 

So TL;DR:

 

At Malachor V she had an innate protection from it's full effect due to being a Wound in the Force herself allowing her to still call upon the Light Side of the Force and even find a center in herself to focus on. At Dromund Kaas however, being a light-sider, she was incapable of calling on the Force properly, much like many other Jedi were unable to whilst on the planet.

 

Except the Naseua and the idea that she barely resisted this both point to the idea that her wound did a whole lot of jack none of the stuff about her wound closing holds up to scrutiny other then people thinking she is more powerful then she is. Just because the wound is not mentioned does not mean its not there. In fact the idea that its not mentioned would generally mean there is no change, no change means she is exactly as she was at the end of KoToR II and as such not as powerful as any have been led to believe.

 

She was more affected by the more powerful Nexus on Malachor then she was by the Nexus on Dromund Kaas, as Malachor's Nexus was more powerful this is what we would expect. The idea that any jedi that wasn't a wound who would everer landed on Malachor no matter how light side they were is completely unfounded. The only people that were brought to that planet were people being brought there to be trained for the Dark side, it eased their falls it didnt force them to fall, none of them were "enlightened" and thus none of them were as pure Light as Meetra was.

 

 

The whole Nathema thing has its points but that doenst change the fact that Malachor as a STRONGER dark side Nexus had a STRONGER affect on her. Hell how can a Light sider at all feel ease landing on a Dark side Nexus with out having some form of Force Corruption inside themselves. The idea that she felt comfort from landing at Kaas city openly suggests that her wound is 100% in tact. If it wasnt then a Dark Side nexus would in no way feel comfortable to a Light sider, but because she herself is a corruption of the force and area of Corrupted for energy like a Nexus WOULD comfort her to a point.

 

 

Sorry to say this but everything you point to as "evidence" her wound closed actually supports it being open still. In other words the idea that she was weaker at Kaas then she was at Malachor the more you look at it the more it comes out to be total Horse crap. I get that all of you love KoToR II to the point that every single character in it is on par with those of the era just before and after, but the more you look at the actual books and get away from game mechanics the more this falls completely flat. It was a dark time for both Jedi and Sith where much of the powerful beings were either dead or in hiding and all of the ones that were making a splash at that time were mere shadows by comparison to the ones that came before and after. The more thats talked about the more its obvious Meetra was properly portraid in Revan and it was all of you wearing the rose tinted goggles that made you think she was stronger or more important then she was.

 

 

Edit: I originally believed the wound closing thing because i was under the impression that Meetra did not feel the affects of Malachor V at all. The Idea that she did feel the affects but "They werent as bad" is total garbage all it is, is an over-estimation of Malachor V's affect on people who have achieved elightenment. That whole game has been over hyped and over estimated from its characters to its planets. This is why its hard for you guys to accept that Meetra in the game and in the book are one in the same.

 

 

Edit 2: This whole KoToR 2 thing seems to be pushing my buttons again and i am likely going to rant on and on and on about just how over hyped everything in it is. I had no problem with the characters originally though i found the story poor but its the Over hypedness of the characters and the locations that has me up in arms just as much as Aurbere is over Over Hypedness of Revan, and as far as i am concerned both are over hyped on a near even scale. The only difference is that at least there have been people to combat the Over Hype that Revan recieved while Traya, and Meetra run rampant with out any checks or balances and C-cannon information in the book is attempted to be "rationalized" because there is no way Meetra was really that weak :rolleyes:. End of story she is that weak get over it.

Edited by tunewalker
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Tune, forgive me, but surely you see that you could be accused of wearing equally rose tinted spectacles? How else would you be able to claim that the KOTOR II era was simply weak? What sense does that even make?

 

Vrook Lamar and the other members of the Jedi Council were appointed to those positions before the dark wars, before the Jedi Civil War and before the Mandalorian Wars. They were the most powerful members of the Jedi Order, which itself has produced prodigies such as Revan and Malak and never been said to be weak.

 

And then we have Sion, who rose to prominence during the Great Sith War - was he weak too? Forgive me but weak individuals cannot achieve immortality through channeling raw power in the dark side - period.

 

And then we have Traya, who could peer thousands of years into the future, percieve the shatterpoints of others with ease, heal individuals with grievous injury and sustain terrible injury herself and attack the Exile telkinetically despite being severed from the Force! Do we lump her into the weak pile as well? On what grounds?

 

And then we have the Exile, who after being severed from the Force grew stronger and stronger and stronger with every kill she made, she subverted entire armies almost single-handedly and then stormed an academy of assassins and Sith, and I don't care how weak you think they were, its still a bloody academy of Force Users numbering in possible 100 or more! Meetra prior to this being one of the leading generals during the Jedi Civil War.

 

Heck don't even get me started on Nihilus, possibly the most powerful Force entity bar Luke Skywalker.

 

Yes there have been many wars in which many people have died, but this is hardly evidence to assert that only the weak and inferior are left over. Most the Jedi Council survived the war and were not replaced but whatever weak folk were left over. In fact I think every member survived the war - Jedi apathy for you. Master Kavar in particular gained a great deal of experience and acclaim during the Jedi Civil War - the Jedi Council being the best of the current order.

 

And then we have the various Exiles and lost. Kreia has nothing to do with the war, she is not a weak left over from the Sith or the Jedi, she left the Order and went into exile. For all we know she could have been among the most powerful, or perhaps not, but her abilities define her power not her context. The same can be said for Meetra, who herself was one of the few survivors of the Jedi Civil War which would indicate she was in fact one of the strongest.

 

And then we have the Lost Jedi, who are not the stragglers left over from war, but Force Users who for various reasons went unnoticed and never trained as Jedi, there is nothing to suggest they are not powerful.

 

Basically its arbitrary, you lack a scrap of evidence to support it. Please allows logic and reason to resurface and look to comparison of Force ability, as opposed to making broad strokes about the Force Users of this period being weak, irregardless of the fact that they stand up to Force Users from other respective eras.

 

To claim that "oh all the tough guys had been killed at that point" is just a bit silly I feel, its an attempt to discredit the entire era on ultimately purely theoretical grounds. Many Jedi and Sith survived the events of the previous wars, and many have demonstrated themselves to be very powerful in their own right. If you really feel that was that Obsidian were trying to portray in KOTOR II then you are mistaken, about a great many things.

 

On the other hand, the evidence for our arguments are sound, allow me to present some:

 

 

  • Meetra Surik was a wound in the Force which would protect her from the effects of a dark side nexus as the Force would literally be incapable of penetrating the empty void that surrounds her. She is a dead spot in the Force, a place where "its will can be denied." I think the meaning there is clear, the Force cannot affect her.
     
     
  • This is supported by the fact that she is immune to Nihilus power, Nihilus effectively being a human replica of Malachor V - a wound in the Force wreathed in a dark side nexus.
     
     
  • Malachor V is one of the strongest dark side nexuses in the galaxy:
     
    "There is a place in the galaxy where the dark side of the Force runs strong. It is something of the Sith, but it was fueled by war. It corrupts all that walks on its surface—drowns them in the power of the dark side. It corrupts all life, and it feeds on death."
     
    I fail to see how a being strong in the light side of the Force could function on such a world, let alone single-handedly defeat an academy of Sith and two powerful Sith Lords.
     
     
  • Meetra's wound would have closed naturally. Unlike Nihilus she did not succumb to it and allow it to grow larger, a wound in the Force being a dark side manifestation. A being strong in the light side of the Force slowly regaining her connection to the Force would find an effective dark side stain inside her slowly diminish. This is perfectly empirical evidence supported by the fact that nobody mentions her wound in the novel. PIS? Probably, but at the same time through Drew's incompetence he inadvertedly supports this argument. If Meetra remained a wound in the Force, people would notice. Yet Lord Scourge doesn't even seem to bat an eyelid?
     
     
  • As Lady has said repeatedly light side users have been profoundly effected by the dark side nexus on Dromund Kaas, Ben Skywalker if I recall could barely move and Yoda himself struggled to call on the Force. All evidence, regardless of the novel's content, points to Meetra being effected by the dark side nexus profoundly.

 

So it is far from illogical to assert that Meetra, no longer protected by her wound in the Force, found her ability on Dromund Kaas diminished. Far better than assuming that Meetra is simple weak (despite Revan seeing her as his equal), the SIth Triumvirate were weak, and everyone else in that period were just weak. Come now.

 

If you still disagree, I'd ask you to respond to the above evidence point by point - because I can't actually comprehend what the above is saying. Though this is going to have to gain traction if we want to change the list.

Edited by Beniboybling
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Edit 2: This whole KoToR 2 thing seems to be pushing my buttons again and i am likely going to rant on and on and on about just how over hyped everything in it is. I had no problem with the characters originally though i found the story poor but its the Over hypedness of the characters and the locations that has me up in arms just as much as Aurbere is over Over Hypedness of Revan, and as far as i am concerned both are over hyped on a near even scale. The only difference is that at least there have been people to combat the Over Hype that Revan recieved while Traya, and Meetra run rampant with out any checks or balances and C-cannon information in the book is attempted to be "rationalized" because there is no way Meetra was really that weak :rolleyes:. End of story she is that weak get over it.
You haven't read the book Tune, you have no idea how horrifically flagrant it is of existing canon - its no surprise that is portrayal of Meetra is an inaccurate one. A character Drew admits to knowing jack all about.

 

P.S. There is no need to call people biased, its an unnecessary statement to make and doesn't help anyone. If you think we are biased fine, but in the end it can be put aside in favour of reasoned debate, no?

Edited by Beniboybling
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That's what I do. I mean, I would post my own thoughts on the matter, but I doubt anyone would listen to me. (Does anyone else find that surprising?)
:confused:

 

Irony much? How many times have I practically dragged an opinion out of you?

Edited by Beniboybling
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Well as my question in the other thread entailed, if we are talking about command of the Light Side of the Force then i think Surik is the superior, certainly.
I feel "command of the Light Side of the Force" is just a little to vague to pin point. It propbably wouldn't even be accuarte, I mean we'd have to throw Windu off the list. Probably Jaina too. On top of excluding anyone who hasn't used a light side power like sever force, so that knocks off everybody else and your uncle.

 

Then slap Yoda at the top along with Barny the Dinosaur...

 

But anyway, if we are all agreed? Jeez things are running suspiciously smoothly...

It's overall force power, (Which makes no sense, because Revan was neither a Jedi, or Light Side, so being based on LS makes more sense) but still, even overall, I think Surik just about passed him.
"I was Sith, I am Jedi."

 

Revan became a Jedi Master... we discussed this.

Edited by Beniboybling
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I feel "command of the Light Side of the Force" is just a little to vague to pin point. It propbably wouldn't even be accuarte, I mean we'd have to throw Windu off the list. Probably Jaina too. On top of excluding anyone who hasn't used a light side power like sever force, so that knocks off everybody else and your uncle.]

 

Well I was suggesting more along the lines of how proficient one was with Light Side abilities, etc..

 

Though if this is about over-all power then I glad we cleared this up, as I can move on to further arguments.

 

Oh to an earlier point Tune, as far as her not having her wound healed by the time of the events of Nathema, there is an out-right canon statement that she went to Dantooine after Malachor V and spent two months retraining herself as a Jedi Master, healing her wound completely.

 

 

I would also like to state, as far as having 'rose-tinted glasses' I find that statement most humorous when almost everyone dismisses the Revan vs Surik argument out of hand around here, yeh... rose-tinted glasses.

 

But let's not allow Revan's direct statement that she is his equal get in the way of your completely unfounded belief that the entire Dark Wars era was filled with n00blet Jedi and amateur hour Sith and teh Exile was lulz weak.

Edited by LadyKulvax
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Tune, forgive me, but surely you see that you could be accused of wearing equally rose tinted spectacles? How else would you be able to claim that the KOTOR II era was simply weak? What sense does that even make?

 

Vrook Lamar and the other members of the Jedi Council were appointed to those positions before the dark wars, before the Jedi Civil War and before the Mandalorian Wars. They were the most powerful members of the Jedi Order, which itself has produced prodigies such as Revan and Malak and never been said to be weak.

 

And then we have Sion, who rose to prominence during the Great Sith War - was he weak too? Forgive me but weak individuals cannot achieve immortality through channeling raw power in the dark side - period.

 

And then we have Traya, who could peer thousands of years into the future, percieve the shatterpoints of others with ease, heal individuals with grievous injury and sustain terrible injury herself and attack the Exile telkinetically despite being severed from the Force! Do we lump her into the weak pile as well? On what grounds?

 

And then we have the Exile, who after being severed from the Force grew stronger and stronger and stronger with every kill she made, she subverted entire armies almost single-handedly and then stormed an academy of assassins and Sith, and I don't care how weak you think they were, its still a bloody academy of Force Users numbering in possible 100 or more! Meetra prior to this being one of the leading generals during the Jedi Civil War.

 

Heck don't even get me started on Nihilus, possibly the most powerful Force entity bar Luke Skywalker.

 

Yes there have been many wars in which many people have died, but this is hardly evidence to assert that only the weak and inferior are left over. Most the Jedi Council survived the war and were not replaced but whatever weak folk were left over. In fact I think every member survived the war - Jedi apathy for you. Master Kavar in particular gained a great deal of experience and acclaim during the Jedi Civil War - the Jedi Council being the best of the current order.

 

And then we have the various Exiles and lost. Kreia has nothing to do with the war, she is not a weak left over from the Sith or the Jedi, she left the Order and went into exile. For all we know she could have been among the most powerful, or perhaps not, but her abilities define her power not her context. The same can be said for Meetra, who herself was one of the few survivors of the Jedi Civil War which would indicate she was in fact one of the strongest.

 

And then we have the Lost Jedi, who are not the stragglers left over from war, but Force Users who for various reasons went unnoticed and never trained as Jedi, there is nothing to suggest they are not powerful.

 

Basically its arbitrary, you lack a scrap of evidence to support it. Please allows logic and reason to resurface and look to comparison of Force ability, as opposed to making broad strokes about the Force Users of this period being weak, irregardless of the fact that they stand up to Force Users from other respective eras.

 

To claim that "oh all the tough guys had been killed at that point" is just a bit silly I feel, its an attempt to discredit the entire era on ultimately purely theoretical grounds. Many Jedi and Sith survived the events of the previous wars, and many have demonstrated themselves to be very powerful in their own right. If you really feel that was that Obsidian were trying to portray in KOTOR II then you are mistaken, about a great many things.

 

On the other hand, the evidence for our arguments are sound, allow me to present some:

 

 

  • Meetra Surik was a wound in the Force which would protect her from the effects of a dark side nexus as the Force would literally be incapable of penetrating the empty void that surrounds her. She is a dead spot in the Force, a place where "its will can be denied." I think the meaning there is clear, the Force cannot affect her.
     
     
  • This is supported by the fact that she is immune to Nihilus power, Nihilus effectively being a human replica of Malachor V - a wound in the Force wreathed in a dark side nexus.
     
     
  • Malachor V is one of the strongest dark side nexuses in the galaxy:
     
    "There is a place in the galaxy where the dark side of the Force runs strong. It is something of the Sith, but it was fueled by war. It corrupts all that walks on its surface—drowns them in the power of the dark side. It corrupts all life, and it feeds on death."
     
    I fail to see how a being strong in the light side of the Force could function on such a world, let alone single-handedly defeat an academy of Sith and two powerful Sith Lords.
     
     
  • Meetra's wound would have closed naturally. Unlike Nihilus she did not succumb to it and allow it to grow larger, a wound in the Force being a dark side manifestation. A being strong in the light side of the Force slowly regaining her connection to the Force would find an effective dark side stain inside her slowly diminish. This is perfectly empirical evidence supported by the fact that nobody mentions her wound in the novel. PIS? Probably, but at the same time through Drew's incompetence he inadvertedly supports this argument. If Meetra remained a wound in the Force, people would notice. Yet Lord Scourge doesn't even seem to bat an eyelid?
     
     
  • As Lady has said repeatedly light side users have been profoundly effected by the dark side nexus on Dromund Kaas, Ben Skywalker if I recall could barely move and Yoda himself struggled to call on the Force. All evidence, regardless of the novel's content, points to Meetra being effected by the dark side nexus profoundly.

 

So it is far from illogical to assert that Meetra, no longer protected by her wound in the Force, found her ability on Dromund Kaas diminished. Far better than assuming that Meetra is simple weak (despite Revan seeing her as his equal), the SIth Triumvirate were weak, and everyone else in that period were just weak. Come now.

 

If you still disagree, I'd ask you to respond to the above evidence point by point - because I can't actually comprehend what the above is saying. Though this is going to have to gain traction if we want to change the list.

 

See all of this crap makes absolutely NO SENSE. You claim she was some how immune to Malachor V and yet then talk about how it affected her greatly causing her Nausea and greatly impending both her abilities and mental soundness. So there is nothing pointing to her Wound protecting her here. ESPECIALLY with that quote you just gave of Malachor V. It DOESNT say it was the most powerful Dark Side Nexus of all time all it does is describe a Dark Side Nexi. Its perfectly describing a Dark side Nexus "It corrupts all that walks on its surface—drowns them in the power of the dark side. It corrupts all life, and it feeds on death." that is the description of what a Dark Side Nexus is. If the FORCE is created by life then a Corruption of that would litterally be called corrupting life and feeding on death, all she did was describe the nature of a Dark Side Nexus.

 

And while Light siders have been affected on Dromuund Kaas Lady just said Meetra felt COMFORT landing on its surface. So her response to it is not consistant with what a normal Light sider usually feels on Dromuund Kaas. Your evidence does not match your argument.

 

 

OK i am going to try to cover point by point but i am skipping everything about "the era being weak or strong" because that was just an assessment made by me getting more and more frustrated over a poorly written game followed by a poorly written novel to tie in everything with plot holes the size of Alaska.

 

 

1. You would think and thats what i was lead to believe as well, but the description of her hearing the voices of the diceased and feeling Nausea and having herself adversely affected by Malachor V at all points to other wise.

 

2. True that and no arguement here, her wound protected her from Nihilus but it does not mean it protected her from Malachor V and as already said and shown, if it did she should not have heard the voices nor should she have felt the Nausea.

 

3. In that quote it is not being claimed as one of the most powerful Dark Side nexus it is just being called a Dark Side Nexus all Traya is doing there is going into a lengthy description of what a Dark side nexus is and how Malachor V came to be a Dark Side Nexus, further more as was said above according to information being brought up Meetra had the proper response to a Lightsider landing on a powerful Dark Side Nexus showing once again her wound did nothing.

 

 

 

4. 2 ways, 1 The world isnt as corrupt as you seem to believe it is, its a dark side nexus but no where does it say its more powerful then your average Nexus, your misinterpreted what Traya said. See above. and 2 those "powerful" dark siders were massively out classed. A light sider has defeated Dark Siders on a Dark Side Nexus before. It happens all the time usually the Light sider is just that much stronger we have to conclude Meetra was the same after all again we are looking at the fact that she WAS affected by Malachor V so the thought that her wound some how protected her doesnt hold water.

 

5. While this MAY happen and sounds rational where is the evidence to support. Other then no one mentioning it there is nothing showing that she was different at that time then she was before. She is negatively affected by both Nexus's when she lands on them so saying an inconsistancy between Malachor and Kaas doesnt hold water since there is no inconsistancy there. She was negatively affected by Malachor which was a dark side nexus "It corrupts all that walks on its surface—drowns them in the power of the dark side. It corrupts all life, and it feeds on death." after all thats what ALL Dark side nexi are by their definition. Kaas which would work the exact same way..... did the same thing to her but to a lesser degree as she was not described as Nauseous there. She was weakened yes as a proper Lightsider should be, but it seems Malachor had a STRONGER affect on her then Kaas did. So Malachor clearly a stronger Dark Side Nexus then Kaas is and her wound did nothing their to protect her, if it did she wouldnt have felt its affects, but she did feel them so it didnt do anything to help. Am i repeating the same point enough to get this yet.

 

 

6. Never disagreed with this

 

7. her powers on Dromuund Kaas were clearly affected again never doubted that, the problem is they were MORE adversely affected on Malachor, so the idea that her wound protected her from Malachor and then her wound closed and she was negatively affected by Kaas is Bull ****. She WAS negatively affected by Malachor and she was more affected then she was at Kaas meaning her wound in the force did absolutely JACK ALL to protect her from Malachor V. This is where every argument for her and the Triumviate falls flat. If her wound protected her she shouldnt have felt the affects, but she did. While we can assume her wound closed.... we have no evidence to support it. No one said it closed, there was no change in her abilities to resist Dark Side Nexus, she didnt resist it before and she didnt resist it after.

 

If she did resist it before and she was at her full strength on Malachor I wouldnt be argueing this and that to me would make a whole crap ton of sense. She herself is a corruption of the Force as a wound thus walking on a planet where the Force has been corrupted AKA a dark side nexus especially one where the Corruption was caused much in the same way if not exactly the same way should empower her the same way it does dark side users at least until the wound itself closed. Thats not what happened though, she was adversely affected just like every other Lightsider that walks on a Dark Side Nexus meaning her wound did a whole lot of nothing to change that relationship meaning we have no reason to believe it closed by the time of Kaas because now we have nothing showing her as different form other Lightside users on a Dark Side Nexus when her wound was open.

 

 

If you havent noticed i am now talking in circles...... If Meetra was not negatively affected by Malachor V I would openly believe everything here and have done so in the past as I thought she wasnt. Then evidence shows up saying she WAS affected by it meaning her wound DIDNT protect her from it. If it didnt protect her then, then when she is on Kaas wound Open or Not Kaas would still affect her regardless, after all Malachor did and it was the sight of the wound opening it shared a similar Corruption if she wasnt protected from it then she isnt going to be protected form any Nexus wound open or close. Thats the whole problem every last arguement starts out she resisted Malachor....... but she DIDNT they specifically say she didnt, Nausea is not resisting.

 

 

 

Edit: Just read Rayla's thing AWESOME we now have evidence the wound closed.......... but what did it do to lower her power. Dark Side Nexus's still had the same affect on her when it was open so it doesnt matter that she was on Kaas. Her knowledge was still the same only difference was how she formed force bonds. She was stil negatively affected by Malachor more so then her being negatively affected by Kaas. So wound or no wound still same affect.

Edited by tunewalker
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You haven't read the book Tune, you have no idea how horrifically flagrant it is of existing canon - its no surprise that is portrayal of Meetra is an inaccurate one. A character Drew admits to knowing jack all about.

 

P.S. There is no need to call people biased, its an unnecessary statement to make and doesn't help anyone. If you think we are biased fine, but in the end it can be put aside in favour of reasoned debate, no?

 

to the P.S. I am trying for as much your sake as mine. I am going insane over here trying to make sense of this stuff. And its consistently not meshing up, the cogs dont fit, the puzzle pieces dont fit. Nothing about that whole darn game makes sense :(. Why does it not make sense. WHY :(.

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Hmm...you know looking at it now this whole "Wound in The Force" thing just seems overhyped. I mean what did it actually do? Protect Surik from Nihilus' and his Force Drain right? Aside from that?

 

I know it helped her form Force bonds easier that was the point of her being bonded with Traya and needing to severe her force before being able to physically harm her or she would have been harmed as well. It also helped her form bonds with her other companions and that was the mechanic in the game that allowed your actions to affect their alignment. Other then that I am trying to figure that whole thing out. its driving me a little COO COO for COCO puffs if you hadnt noticed..... that game hurts me.....

Edited by tunewalker
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I know it helped her form Force bonds easier that was the point of her being bonded with Traya and needing to severe her force before being able to physically harm her or she would have been harmed as well. It also helped her form bonds with her other companions and that was the mechanic in the game that allowed your actions to affect their alignment. Other then that I am trying to figure that whole thing out. its driving me a little COO COO for COCO puffs if you hadnt noticed..... that game hurts me.....

 

But still going back, it just seemed like the same thing that Anakin learned from Ulic in his tomb about resisting the Force Draining effects of the Dark Reaper...only instead of a technique it's just some manifestation.

Edited by Wolfninjajedi
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