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Now give us all Cross Faction maps

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > PvP
Now give us all Cross Faction maps

WayOfTheWarriorx's Avatar


WayOfTheWarriorx
Yesterday , 10:16 AM | #61
Quote: Originally Posted by Rafiknoll View Post
Not necessarily matchmaking, but given quite the lower number of players queueing at a certain faction in certain times (will use reps as example), that would mean that except for cross-faction maps, imps are more likely to face the same people again and again, and reps are more likely to have the same team members again, while the imps enjoy more diversity and play with different people.
It can be good or bad for either faction, depending on who is queueing rep side. If 2-3 stealth AFKers or total noobs, or rage quitters are queueing rep, it means that even a good rep will find it harder to win because all his games are hindered by the same morons (not to mention that if they quit it is less likely reinforcements will come promptly enough. Having 6 defenders in a voidstar for 40s can make quite a difference...). However, if the reps have some gods queueing, or a good premade, it means in nearly all games versus reps the imps will have to face them, while the other random reps get carried, whether they enjoy it or not.
Making cross-faction a thing solves both situations by shuffling all players randomly, just as most PVP-only games do, it increases the options by a lot, making games less same.

[Warning: reading might cause a headache, and is truly not adviced if for some reason you already have one ]
Some math to back it up, I will keep things simple and assume there are no premades at all, arenas don't exist, and all cases are extreme.
A reminder in math: The number of possibilities to pick X people out of a group of Y people (when order doesn't matter) is YcX = Y!/[X!*(Y-X)!]
Let's say there is no cross-faction at all (because since there is "some", it makes all calculations harder, because I can't measure how much "some"), and we have 13 reps and 30 imps in queue (and these numbers happen, they aren't too low to be true). As I said we will ignore arenas in this simulations, so all matches require 16 players, 8 per team. Without cross-faction, there are 1287 possible rep teams (13C8), versus 5852925 possible teams (30C8) in the empire. The ratio of possibilities 50025:11 which means approx 4548 imperial possibilities to 1 Republic possibility. The total of possible matches is 753,271,475.
[If you think these numbers are high, remember that for example, when I said 1287 rep possibilities it might sound a lot, but this number means the number of possible not-entirely-similar groups, which means, that even with the same 7 people, you have 6 different possible groups due to the 8th guy varying, so if this one guy doesn't matter we should divide it by 6 and already drop down to 215 options, and so on...]
Now let's check it in cross-faction, this time we aren't limited to picking 8 out of 13 and then 8 out of 30. We can this time look at it as picking 2 groups of 8 people of 43, which means there are 3.41289426x10^15 possible matches [43P16/(2*8!). Possible ways to pick 16 people out of 43 if order matters, divided by twice the possible ways to place 8 people in different orders, because order doesn't matter within the groups, only between them]. That is more than 4.5 million times more possible matches than without the cross-faction. It also means that the possibilities for each group are 58,419,982 (square root of the possible matches, because each group should have exactly the same number of options, given the lack of constraints such as faction), which is 10 times more possibilities than imps had without cross-faction, and 45392 time more possibilities than the reps had.
Yes, I did say above that the high number of possibilities is due to any little detail counting as a possibility, and in truth, the differences between a select thousand of possibilities are probably minor. But ratios don't lie. And the ratios say that the diversity of the group from low-populated-faction in matches will increase some thousandfolds if cross-faction is a thing everywhere, compared to how it would be if cross-faction didn't exist at all.
Now you will jump me and say that since cross-faction does exist, the impact of full cross-faction implementation will be smaller, because we are kinda half way there, that is true, but I also didn't take into account the possibility of reps being left out due to imps getting pops versus imps, imbalanced role diversities, and premades. Too many factors to make accurate math, but one thing is clear: there is just no way cross-faction will HARM the diversity, as we can see in the extreme case [Full cross versus no cross], the difference is immense.

Getting back to the no-math zone: Cross-faction might not help matchmaking as long as matchmaking doesn't exist, but it does improve the diversity of players, which is the next best thing.
You had me right up until the "Some math" part, than my brain circuitry started to whistle, crack, and pop! heh

Many of your arguments are compelling and sound, gotta call a spade a spade. The math part I cannot speak to because once I'm out of fingers and toes it's all greek to me but I certainly will take your calculations at face value.
The arguments are in all likelihood better than mine and everything you are saying makes perfect sense. The thing is for many players Star Wars canon is a very compelling force in it's own right, we all grew up falling in love with Star Wars over and over again, I mean hell, even pygmies who have never laid eyes on a graveled road before know what Star Wars is! We like what we like, we all have preferences, and all people will never agree in mass on any subject and this is no different.

What does any of that have to do with WZs? Not one thing besides for immersion. Some people have said they don't care who they play with, whether IMP or Pub, Jedi or Sith and they are entitled to that opinion, but that's really all it is, opinions. But just because they might not care doesn't mean everyone else shares that view. I don't belittle anyone's opinion on the matter because neither side is right or wrong. Speaking for myself, I don't want to be fighting next to a Jedi, I want to fight him and all his pub friends. If you make all WZs cross faction, you will literally never be able to fight the Republic/Empire ever again. For me it's not as fun. I want to fight pub teams.

The pro cross faction people are not wrong when they say that WZs are not about storylines or RPing, I agree 100% That's undeniable. That seemingly doesn't seem to matter to a lot of people, they hate cross faction maps and the reasons for that really don't matter, that's their opinion, it just detracts from the experience. I mean what's next? Cross faction Operations? Cross faction storylines? Cross factioning of WZ would set a very bad precedent that would just bring the game further and further away from it's roots. No one wanted to play this game because they thought it'd be fun to play Sith and Jedi working together, they came because they wanted to play one side fighting the other. Once you hit end game, there is only way and one way only to still get to fight the other side and that's WZs. I'm not exactly sure what the split is with regard to people who are pro cross faction and against cross faction, but I would be very surprised if there was a poll taken and anti-cross faction wasn't greater than pro cross faction.

I respect those who are of the pro-cross factioning, they have every right to their opinion, I simply don't share it. If it would definitely improve the evening of the roles on both teams, I'd bite the bullet. What's best for all must come first and I'd fully support it.

On the technical level, you win hands down. You've got to love smart people.

Star Wars or bust.For the Empire!!!
~ Grim


"There's a word for Lightside Sith. It's called Jedi."

Rafiknoll's Avatar


Rafiknoll
Yesterday , 11:13 AM | #62
Quote: Originally Posted by WayOfTheWarriorx View Post
You had me right up until the "Some math" part, than my brain circuitry started to whistle, crack, and pop! heh
Well, I did give an explicit warning on top of that part

Quote: Originally Posted by WayOfTheWarriorx View Post
<The rest of the post>
Didn't quote fully to make reading of my post easier, but I did read it all [You will never hear me say "tl;dr"]. A welcome change to see an opposing argument which is respectful and not offensive.
Yup, even as a non-RP myself I do enjoy "diving" into the backstory of a warzone (in case it has one), though I enjoy it about the same if I am a Jedi killing sith, or a sith killing Jedi, or a sith beating sith in training, or a sith teaming with Jedi and fighting sith and Jedi in training for the fight against the eternal empire. So I do understand the argument to an extent. I just can't give it more weight than the opposing side.
In fact, this is one of the things I dislike about Yavin: the backstory is lacking. It doesn't sound like training, the enemy is refered to as "the enemy", no information... Who are we? Who are they? Are factions emerging within the alliance? Theron's versus Lana's? Republic supporters versus imperial supporters (based on the Iokath storyline)? What exactly is going on there? [The only reason I never complained about it is the same as why I didn't complain about the new graphics of force shroud, it didn't harm enough to worth the effort]
But if I have to choose between swapping all PVP to alliance training matches or whatever backstory that went in Yavin and making them cross-faction (loss: pure old rep vs old imp battles), or sometimes having hours of facing/playing with the exact same people with nearly no diversity, then I choose losing those specific story aspects [and with some effort, RP with cross-faction can be as fun. You could consider the Jedi who is with you to be a member of the temporary truce (like we see in SoR or in SW storyline) against an enemy sith lord, who is your enemy because of the inner-fighting of the sith (like both vanilla sith storylines) or because they are revanites or zildrogs or whatever conspiracy you prefer ].

Rafiknoll's Avatar


Rafiknoll
Yesterday , 11:21 AM | #63
Quote: Originally Posted by omaan View Post
I dont need ur diversity. When you finish shadow of revan everyone agrees that the alliance was TEMPORAL and that republic and empire are at war. So shadow or revan just shows us temporal alliance which ended fast. Even during kotfe we see that empire and republic continue to exist separate, and just sending some soldiers to the new alliance. Besides kotet and kotfe is a fail in general. Read comments on it and see that most of players didnt like it. I completed it only on my main and didnt do so on any other char. Classic story is twice as better as kotfe garbage.

Ill repeat again, what health of pvp you mean? There is no problems of wrz pops on darth malgus or tulak hord or star forge! Both factions getting constant pops, and i saw it on my own experience. Trixxie is an APAC player, she may be playing during the "dead time". Devs never cared about APAC players so no wonder most of them left. If these players having ms issues, getting no pops because of playing during dead time, there is no place for them in this game. Sad but true.
The empire and republic exist separately but you aren't part of them, you are of the alliance, and regardless of your origins the empress will try to ally you and the chancellor will try to assassinate you, and both factions are constantly wary of you. If you dislike the 2 new expansions and their story, then too bad because "Devs never cared about RP players who don't agree with their new cross-faction story so no wonder most of them left. If these players having issues with the new story, refusing to accept that the current form of the game is making the players faction-impartial, there is no place for them in this game. Sad but true." As you probably noticed this is an edited copy-paste of your idea about APAC players. I don't truly think so, I think it is a cruel way to look at any group of players. But yet my version is closer to the truth than yours, and both better be false...

WayOfTheWarriorx's Avatar


WayOfTheWarriorx
Yesterday , 11:26 AM | #64
Quote: Originally Posted by Rafiknoll View Post
Well, I did give an explicit warning on top of that part



Didn't quote fully to make reading of my post easier, but I did read it all [You will never hear me say "tl;dr"]. A welcome change to see an opposing argument which is respectful and not offensive.
Yup, even as a non-RP myself I do enjoy "diving" into the backstory of a warzone (in case it has one), though I enjoy it about the same if I am a Jedi killing sith, or a sith killing Jedi, or a sith beating sith in training, or a sith teaming with Jedi and fighting sith and Jedi in training for the fight against the eternal empire. So I do understand the argument to an extent. I just can't give it more weight than the opposing side.
In fact, this is one of the things I dislike about Yavin: the backstory is lacking. It doesn't sound like training, the enemy is refered to as "the enemy", no information... Who are we? Who are they? Are factions emerging within the alliance? Theron's versus Lana's? Republic supporters versus imperial supporters (based on the Iokath storyline)? What exactly is going on there? [The only reason I never complained about it is the same as why I didn't complain about the new graphics of force shroud, it didn't harm enough to worth the effort]
But if I have to choose between swapping all PVP to alliance training matches or whatever backstory that went in Yavin and making them cross-faction (loss: pure old rep vs old imp battles), or sometimes having hours of facing/playing with the exact same people with nearly no diversity, then I choose losing those specific story aspects [and with some effort, RP with cross-faction can be as fun. You could consider the Jedi who is with you to be a member of the temporary truce (like we see in SoR or in SW storyline) against an enemy sith lord, who is your enemy because of the inner-fighting of the sith (like both vanilla sith storylines) or because they are revanites or zildrogs or whatever conspiracy you prefer ].
Again, it all makes perfect sense in the broader view, it's just the up close view for some of us that prevents us from seeing the broader view.

I don't know why it bothers me, I don't know why I care. I guess it's kinda like asking someone why they prefer their favorite color, who the hell knows heh Idiosyncrasies sometimes prevail!
~ Grim


"There's a word for Lightside Sith. It's called Jedi."

TrixxieTriss's Avatar


TrixxieTriss
Yesterday , 05:53 PM | #65
Quote: Originally Posted by omaan View Post
I didnt had any problems with pops on servers i played. And i queued in different times (mostly day and night but not in the morning). If server merges didnt helped one of the servers to have constant pops ON BOTH FACTIONS it means that this server is dying, and nothing will save it. In prospect it will die sooner than other servers. I mostly playing on darth malgus and tulak hord and the pops are pretty good during different times. And on Tulak hord the pops on rep side are even better than on imp side because reps dominate there (however, imps also not having any problems with pops).
So in your opinion, Star Forge is dying because it has slow pops for certain factions outside of your personal game time 😉

At 4pm to 2am Sydney Australia time (9pm - 7am West Coast time) the pops start decreasing significantly and extend out to multple hours between them. Last night there were 50-68 people on Repubilc SF between 11pm and 3am (AEST).
Now I know that is outside Prime time and I know Aussies got shafted with the servers moves. But if we had cross faction, it would help because there maybe enough people on both factions combined to get some matches.
Keep in mind that EU and East coast players are also on SF, that means at 6pm (AEST), itís 7am (GMT, London). That means itís 3pm in London at 2am in Sydney. So youíd think you should have a few EU guys on SF during the day?
What about the east coast? At 2am Sydney time, itís 10am New York time. But we still only had 68 people on the republic fleet. On a side note, there were 1 and half Imperial fleets at that time, but it seemed most were RPing around the cantina.
From my experiences the last few weeks, Iíve seen in what you would call the prime time (because thatís when you play 🙄 ) actually shrinking.
It only seems health between 2-3pm to 9pm NY time and between 2-3pm to 9pm LA time. There is only 2 hours overlap there as well. So that means the peak of US prime time is 2 hours because once it reaches 9pm in NY, it starts to decline.
Iím not sure what the deal is with American players, do you all go to bed at 9.30pm every night 😉, so your bright eyed and fluffy tailed for school and work.
Obviously thatís not every night of the week, some are worse than others and the weekends are the best. There have only been two weekends since I saw this start to decline, so Iíve not seen a big decline there,

IMHO, they should have just made one US mega server. The only reason to have two was because we were expecting a west coast and east coast location for each. It makes zero sense to have 2 in the same location because theyíll end up needing to merge again in 6 months.
The EU can only support one English Speaking server and there are just as many of them as US players. What made them think we need 2 US servers?
Why not do it all in one hit? Rip the bandaid off like they did with the APAC players.
Original PvP Old Guard
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masstershake's Avatar


masstershake
Yesterday , 06:24 PM | #66
I see no reason other than people that cry immersion. This should be 100% acceptable for everyone but RPers. I also agree solo ranked could use this function.
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WayOfTheWarriorx's Avatar


WayOfTheWarriorx
Yesterday , 06:41 PM | #67
Quote: Originally Posted by TrixxieTriss View Post
IMHO, they should have just made one US mega server. The only reason to have two was because we were expecting a west coast and east coast location for each. It makes zero sense to have 2 in the same location because theyíll end up needing to merge again in 6 months.
The EU can only support one English Speaking server and there are just as many of them as US players. What made them think we need 2 US servers?
Why not do it all in one hit? Rip the bandaid off like they did with the APAC players.
.

I'm by no means a technical expert, in fact I pretty much break everything I touch, but I think maybe the reasons they didn't just make one megaserver are two fold.

* That's a lot of people talking at the same time and it would be extremely difficult to see what people you are talking two are responding with because the window text flys to fast. You'd have like 1000 people speaking at the same time and Fleet would be an absolute nightmare. With that also comes that many more trolls everyone has to deal with.

* If one out of 5 servers go down there still a ton of people playing the game on the other serves and thus are unaffected. The Mega server goes down there would not be one person playing the game, that's a lot of angry people. I believe, and you can correct me if I'm wrong, you're the techie, but I believe BW stated that that much traffic on the same server could in of it self cause problems and might have problems with stability. It kinda makes sense when you think about it. You'd know better than me though on that.

Closing down the west coast server and waiting until 5 minutes before 5.0 went live was messed up. That's not something that people take kindly when they know that BW waited that long to tell players because they didn't want to deal with the grief to them any more than they absolutely had to.

Does that make it suck any less? No chance, but you can't blame a business for trying to make as much money as is possible. Even still they should have said something much earlier that the WCS would be taken off line. That's a slap in the face to a paying customer. West coasters/APAC players have the right to be pissed over it. They're getting less service while stilling paying the same price as before.
~ Grim


"There's a word for Lightside Sith. It's called Jedi."