@Chaqen: In order to practice the fights while we're waiting for 16 people to log on we break down into an 8 man group. During the hour and a half of practice time, we killed toth and zorn twice with one group, and two more times with 6 different people swapped in. (Then /stuck on the handler)

Toth and zorn on 8 man hit like flowers, comparatively. Then, on 16 NiM, Firebrand and Stormcaller make Toth and Zorn's damage almost negligible.

My guild has proven that 8 man is much easier.

@Donalj: We run 16 man because we can clear 8 man with ease. No, Messores Republicae would probably not be world first in 8 man, but 8 man is not enough of a challenge.

We do not care about epeen. We just want to be able to chew on something. 16 man NiM EC is the challenge that HARDCORE raiders, the ones that hoped this game would be better than WoW, want and crave so badly! We will stay in 16 man. This is where the top raiders belong. Screw gear, we want challenges.

So basically you are saying that the 16 men are harder?

Tell me, how many times did you actually wiped because of the unavoidable boss skills. Like Enrage and tank instagibs? And how many time did you wiped because of your raid members couldnt press the right keys, and dying in the avoidable abilities?

SWTOR raiding is a joke either way, so bragging about kills and talking down the other difficulty just because you have more than braindead in your 16 men Ops, please.

The 16man fights are harder and the proof is the number of people that clear 8man raids faster.

For whatever reason it is logical to assume that if an 8man group can clear the instance in 1/2 nights but yet we are the only guild to pass the tank boss on 16man (3/4 currently), 16man is harder.

In my mind its a mute discussion and generally accepted that 16mans are more difficult for the following reasons:

1) Raid mechanics at this level are pass/fail therefore twice as much chance to fail in 16man.

2) The organisation is twice as hard due to twice the number of people to co-ordinate.

3) You need to do twice the amount of recruiting/gearing (which is tremendously difficult)

4) Our officers need to give double effort to craft/buy/sell to get us geared and pay for our repairs.

The 16man fights are harder and the proof is the number of people that clear 8man raids faster.

 

For whatever reason it is logical to assume that if an 8man group can clear the instance in 1/2 nights but yet we are the only guild to pass the tank boss on 16man (3/4 currently), 16man is harder.

 

In my mind its a mute discussion and generally accepted that 16mans are more difficult for the following reasons:

 

1) Raid mechanics at this level are pass/fail therefore twice as much chance to fail in 16man.

2) The organisation is twice as hard due to twice the number of people to co-ordinate.

3) You need to do twice the amount of recruiting/gearing (which is tremendously difficult)

4) Our officers need to give double effort to craft/buy/sell to get us geared and pay for our repairs.

Not even that but the mechanics hit MUCH harder. The damage is much higher, as well as the difference in mechanics (like 2 shields per side on 16man tanks)

The 16man fights are harder and the proof is the number of people that clear 8man raids faster.

 

For whatever reason it is logical to assume that if an 8man group can clear the instance in 1/2 nights but yet we are the only guild to pass the tank boss on 16man (3/4 currently), 16man is harder.

 

In my mind its a mute discussion and generally accepted that 16mans are more difficult for the following reasons:

 

1) Raid mechanics at this level are pass/fail therefore twice as much chance to fail in 16man.

2) The organisation is twice as hard due to twice the number of people to co-ordinate.

3) You need to do twice the amount of recruiting/gearing (which is tremendously difficult)

4) Our officers need to give double effort to craft/buy/sell to get us geared and pay for our repairs.

Flawed logic, by the way. There are very few 16 man guilds in the first place. On the Empire side TOFN there is NONE, and it is next to impossible to find a stable 16 man group going for a few weeks without people leaving the game in droves. The average life span of a SWTOR is appx. few weeks, and I'm pretty sure the other servers have similar issues. I'm not arguing that 16 man is easier, I'm sure there are fights in EC NiM which are significantly harder on 16 by default, it's just that your first statement is flawed, to say the least. Seriously, I've been raiding in this game since in January and I've easily seen appx. 50+ good players leave, finding a stable 16 man guild ... well, I can only respect you guys from Friendly Fire, I would say the hardest thing about 16 man op is GETTING 16 people in a raid in the first place.

In my experience, last boss TFB HM is significantly harder on 16, while other bosses are more or less the same, I would even argue that the first one is easier because there is no increase in the amound of debuffs people get from the boss (unlike Zorn & Toth), and the dps requirement for the 3rd boss is significantly lower than on 8. Haven't tried 16 man EC NiM ... yeah, on TOFN that's likely to never happen.

We did 16man after we killed all bosses in 8man nightmare mode and we were also really surprised, that it is so challenging. After this disappointing 8man mode, we really enjoy 16man.

Maybe it is a bit easier when our characters, which have a lockout on nightmare mode, are available again because they've got the best equipment.

Thumbs up for Bioware!

I'd have to agree, our guild is doing 16 man at the moment. We killed Toth and Zorn 5 different times with different 8 mans (clear it with one set of 8, then rotate in a few) in order to practice it before all 16 logged on.

 

We spent 1 hour on 8 man Toth and Zorn before we downed them then /stuck on the handler to that we didn't lock ourselves out.

 

In total it took my 16 man ops group 8 hours to down Toth and Zorn. 16 man seems to be in the right place, it's 8 man that's under-tuned.

 

Do not want a nerf. Make 8 man harder. It's supposed to be a nightmare!

It WAS supposed to be a nightmare until Bioware decided to mess things up and make it required to get the next tier of gear, completely destroying the purpose of nightmare raids (being insane, optional and very challenging).

It may be harder in 16m for NiM EC, but that wasn't the case for TfB HM, with the exception of the boss Terror from Beyond itself.

I know you feel like special snow flakes for having the tenacity to keep together 16 players in a game that has had rapidly dwindling numbers, but no, you don't deserve special treatment, as encounters will never be tuned exactly "the same" for 16 and 8m, just like classes will never be truly balanced in PvP. As can be seen in TfB, 16m was generally easier in my experience, in NiM EC, it may well be reversed, the next instance? Who knows, as long as it's ballpark, that's all you can expect.

8m NiM EC is easier. It's not debatable. It's not even close. It's more difficult by almost an entire order of magnitude. If you want to talk TFB HM then the first, second, fourth, and fifth bosses in 16m in TFB HM were also more difficult on 16m. The only fight easier on 16m in TFB was Operator.

If you think differently:

1. Haven't stepped into the zone on 16m

2. Want to make yourself feel better about your 8m team

Contrary to popular belief, we know this because we literally have 5 progression raid groups that have stepped foot into the zone (4 on 8m, 1 on 16m), not because we are a "B" team. Sorry, but some of the postulations here are sad troll attempts at best.

8m NiM EC is easier. It's not debatable. It's not even close. It's more difficult by almost an entire order of magnitude. If you want to talk TFB HM then the first, second, fourth, and fifth bosses in 16m in TFB HM were also more difficult on 16m. The only fight easier on 16m in TFB was Operator.

 

If you think differently:

 

1. Haven't stepped into the zone on 16m

2. Want to make yourself feel better about your 8m team

 

Contrary to popular belief, we know this because we literally have 5 progression raid groups that have stepped foot into the zone (4 on 8m, 1 on 16m), not because we are a "B" team. Sorry, but some of the postulations here are sad troll attempts at best.

Experienced 16 TFB HM for myself, the only boss that's more difficult is the last one, stop absolutizing, please. But I will not say anything about 16 EC NiM, that may never happen on TOFN Empire side. Gotta love this perennial whine about 16 v 8 ... you guys do realize not even the almighty WoW comes close to balancing 25 v 10? They've only tried to do that for years and years, and the raiding community there also whines constantly about it. Nothing is resolved there, why do you think whining here will resolve anything?

I'm "absolutizing" because there is an absolute answer.

Edit: Just because one game doesn't balance it right doesn't mean another game gets a free pass.

My buddy was just messaging me earlier talking about how much of a joke 8man was... when their best DPS was tanking, they were using B and C team DPS and their healers were "bored".

Our healers in 16man in full BiS were ANYTHING but bored... and our DPS were busting their asses in order to not hit enrage for tanks. Sorry, but if you insist on 8man being harder- I suggest trying to field a 16man or at least go with another guild and see how just one person (anyone) dying means a wipe.

@Chaqen: In order to practice the fights while we're waiting for 16 people to log on we break down into an 8 man group. During the hour and a half of practice time, we killed toth and zorn twice with one group, and two more times with 6 different people swapped in. (Then /stuck on the handler)

 

Toth and zorn on 8 man hit like flowers, comparatively. Then, on 16 NiM, Firebrand and Stormcaller make Toth and Zorn's damage almost negligible.

 

My guild has proven that 8 man is much easier.

 

@Donalj: We run 16 man because we can clear 8 man with ease. No, Messores Republicae would probably not be world first in 8 man, but 8 man is not enough of a challenge.

We do not care about epeen. We just want to be able to chew on something. 16 man NiM EC is the challenge that HARDCORE raiders, the ones that hoped this game would be better than WoW, want and crave so badly! We will stay in 16 man. This is where the top raiders belong. Screw gear, we want challenges.

My thoughts exactly.

We've felt 8 man Ops were harder than 16 man at first, considering that DPS was more forgiving in a 16 man environment. But to our surprise, 16 man despite the the amount of DPS, mechanics were the key factor along with the amount of organization it requires for a 16 man Operation. Just because your 8 man OPs group downs something without any real hitch, doesn't mean that a 16 man will be a breeze. We felt this as well until we ventured into the 16 man Operations and found that it wasn't a walk in the park as we thought it would be.

Yes, most groups can't field a 16 man Operation, so please don't knock the groups who can. We push ourselves to the limits with the new Mechanics of the NiM Denova and so far we love the challenge. We just hope others venture into the scene and realize what we've come to love. A Challenge and a well organized group of people to achieve a goal such as this. But I will say, after hours of busting our heads against the wall in our 16 man OPs and then switching to a 8 man OPs, it truly was a night and day feel. The 8 man was much easier to accomplish what we wanted, and that was to learn the mechanics and memorize them, so when we went back to our 16 man we were able to find the different things we needed to do as a 16 man Ops in order to adapt our group to the fight and complete the challenge we had in front of us.

Good luck in your Ops and hope to see you in the charts!

I'm "absolutizing" because there is an absolute answer.

 

Edit: Just because one game doesn't balance it right doesn't mean another game gets a free pass.

Your "absolute answer" does not apply to every boss in TFB HM nor EC HM, but for EC NiM. This game does not get a free pass, but it will continue to show this imbalance between 16 and 8, and your "special snowflake" whining will not change the situation. The only thing that Bioware can do is allow PTS transfers for EVERYONE and thus provide more and efficient testing, so we do not have nonsense like Col. Vorgath NiM ...

. . . the raiding community there also whines constantly about it. Nothing is resolved there, why do you think whining here will resolve anything?

We aren't whining, MoXboss isn't whining, right now we're just sharing desperation about he difficulty.

Now, the thing that are annoying both him and myself is that because we 16 man guilds have had a depressingly slower progression than the 8 man guilds, we have been being looked down upon because the community consensus is that "8 man is more difficult than 16 man" without many of the people claiming this having run 16 man content.

I want 2 things: the thought that our guilds are bad because we're going slower in 16 man.

and I want people to be encouraged to run 16 man content because I WANT COMPETITION.

Messores was founded to be a competitive PvE guild, and we're losing competition because most of the 16 man guilds have quit.

I don't want bragging rights over 8 man guilds, I don't want elitism either way, but I certainly don't want being called out on the fleet as a "****** PvE guild" because we're only 1/4 NiM EC.

I want people to be encouraged to run 16 man content

My opinion: That's completely fine, as long as 16m Guilds don't start to look down on the rest and vica versa (On my server the usual response from them is "You killed XY boss? Tell me how great your 8 man team are!", but i think at this state, it's likely never going to happen, because the sad truth is: there are like 400k subs left. Many of those are just casuals who are barely even set foot in an Ops, a big chunk is the PvP community and the VAST MAJORITY are 8 man Guilds. BW is likely never going to encourage ppl to run 16 man, because on most servers it's almost impossible to get 16 decent ppl who are even willing to do 16 man... Again this is my opinion.

And just to reinforce my logic (I DO NOT INTEND TO GENERATE FURTHER FLAME SO PLS REMAIN CALM.):

Gabe Amatangelo: "It is intended that 16 player mode is slightly easier than 8 player mode due to the fact that getting and coordinating 16 players is a larger hurdle in and of itself."

So by default design they aren't encouraging ppl to run 16 man...

I think the chance to get Qyzen's Kephess skin is increased, but I'm not sure.

Mostly it's just bragging rights. Heroic 25 man in WoW has always been the way people keep track of World Firsts. It's pretty much the same for SWTOR, people will clear 16 man and then start farming 8 man after they've done it once...

Dream Paragon (10-man World First Guild) would like to have a word with you about that...

Also, there was a 10-man version of a boss encounter (don't remember which one) in WotLK that was deemed harder than it's 25-man version. So it's not always true.

However, in this game, yes, 16-man is much harder than 8-man in.

Your "absolute answer" does not apply to every boss in TFB HM nor EC HM, but for EC NiM. This game does not get a free pass, but it will continue to show this imbalance between 16 and 8, and your "special snowflake" whining will not change the situation. The only thing that Bioware can do is allow PTS transfers for EVERYONE and thus provide more and efficient testing, so we do not have nonsense like Col. Vorgath NiM ...

You clearly didn't read and/or comprehend what I wrote. Go back and try again.

You clearly didn't read and/or comprehend what I wrote. Go back and try again.

Yes, you said ONLY Operator IX is easier on 16 ... not according to my experience. And the whole "16 being harder" certainly does not pertain to EC HM, Kephess HM being the case in point.

For instance, please tell me why Writhing Horror 16 HM is harder than 8 ... you do realize you still get two debuffs to dispel, right?

So, yeah, stop making absolute statements because at this point you are just butthurt Bioware does not pat you on the back for doing 16. You do realize they've stated 16 man Ops are supposed to be easier by default, right? I am not saying they are (this is certainly not true for EC NiM or the last boss of TFB HM), but I am saying whining here will grant you absolutely nothing from a company that has a totally different philosophy than you.

Yes, you said ONLY Operator IX is easier on 16 ... not according to my experience. And the whole "16 being harder" certainly does not pertain to EC HM, Kephess HM being the case in point.

 

For instance, please tell me why Writhing Horror 16 HM is harder than 8 ... you do realize you still get two debuffs to dispel, right?

 

So, yeah, stop making absolute statements because at this point you are just butthurt Bioware does not pat you on the back for doing 16. You do realize they've stated 16 man Ops are supposed to be easier by default, right? I am not saying they are (this is certainly not true for EC NiM or the last boss of TFB HM), but I am saying whining here will grant you absolutely nothing from a company that has a totally different philosophy than you.

I'm sorry to burst your bubble but Bioware have also said that accuracy is useful for tanks, which is clearly untrue. Don't take what Bioware says to be the complete truth. I can guarantee you that 16 man is harder.

Also as another point: On 8 man the 2 tanks have 1 million hp each, 2 million in total (taking these numbers from videos) . Lets say dps have around 280 (numbers from 16 man, could be wrong) seconds of dps on the tanks, that means each of the dps needs to do around 1400-1500 dps (assuming 2 tanks= 1 dps). Lets compare this to 16 man: each tank has 2.5 million hp each, adding up to 5 million. Again, saying dps have 280 seconds to kill the tanks this leaves you with each dps needing to do aroung 1600+ dps (assuming 2 tanks = 1 dps). Correct me if im wrong but there is a clear dps requirement difference here. So to everyone saying 8 man is more of a dps check, please, prove me wrong.

I think the main problems with this argument thus far are:

1. People are using quotes from 8 months ago ...

2. From an almost entirely different development team ...

3. About their intentions

Simple math, as Donal has shown, shows that 16 man requires higher DPS. Other obvious things would make 16 man harder (16 people coordinating - it is harder to see certain effects when you have more people on the map and therefore some people can get lost in mechanics - on certain fights that require separation there is less room on the map to move - etc.).

The truth is, the fights are usually balanced on 8 man, because that is what is available on the testing servers. When it comes down to it, the dev team is not doing a proper job scaling it up to 16. Again, as Donal pointed out, if total health on Z+T is 2M for 8 man, it should be approximately 4.4M for 16 man (not 5M).

The other problem is that damage is ramped up in 16-mans. If you made a mistake in 8man that lead you to get hit (by say the cleave of TFB) it was easily livable through. You took maybe 5k damage. In 16man, you take twice the damage, that can be half your life as a dps. So there's more changes for you to get one-shot.

Plus, you don't get double the number of battles rezzes in 16-man. You're still stuck to 1 in a 5-min fight. So chances for someone to die is double, but chances to revive stay the same.

I don't mind the second one, but the increased damage can turn things into nightmares for healers as they have to react a lot faster.

I'm sorry to burst your bubble but Bioware have also said that accuracy is useful for tanks, which is clearly untrue. Don't take what Bioware says to be the complete truth. I can guarantee you that 16 man is harder.

 

Also as another point: On 8 man the 2 tanks have 1 million hp each, 2 million in total (taking these numbers from videos) . Lets say dps have around 280 (numbers from 16 man, could be wrong) seconds of dps on the tanks, that means each of the dps needs to do around 1400-1500 dps (assuming 2 tanks= 1 dps). Lets compare this to 16 man: each tank has 2.5 million hp each, adding up to 5 million. Again, saying dps have 280 seconds to kill the tanks this leaves you with each dps needing to do aroung 1600+ dps (assuming 2 tanks = 1 dps). Correct me if im wrong but there is a clear dps requirement difference here. So to everyone saying 8 man is more of a dps check, please, prove me wrong.

You forgot the key mechanic of this fight on NIM, the second double destruction. If you getting the second double destruction (and you will on 8 man, unless you have uneven dps on the tanks) you will need to have people switch tanks mid fight, much like the tanks do, and loose out on dps from having to switch. On 16 man you can assign 2 dps to take the 1st DD, and then 2 others to take the second with out needing anyone to stop their flow of dps at all.

The other problem is that damage is ramped up in 16-mans. If you made a mistake in 8man that lead you to get hit (by say the cleave of TFB) it was easily livable through. You took maybe 5k damage. In 16man, you take twice the damage, that can be half your life as a dps. So there's more changes for you to get one-shot.

 

Plus, you don't get double the number of battles rezzes in 16-man. You're still stuck to 1 in a 5-min fight. So chances for someone to die is double, but chances to revive stay the same.

 

I don't mind the second one, but the increased damage can turn things into nightmares for healers as they have to react a lot faster.

erm, no, in 16 bring 2 operative healers and you have more resses than in 8, for sure. Ever heard of stealth ress? They even reduced the cooldown of "vanish"

The other problem is that damage is ramped up in 16-mans. If you made a mistake in 8man that lead you to get hit (by say the cleave of TFB) it was easily livable through. You took maybe 5k damage. In 16man, you take twice the damage, that can be half your life as a dps. So there's more changes for you to get one-shot.

 

I dont think none of the attacks are ramped up to the point of being twice the amount of 8 man... tanks would be getting insta-gibe if that was the case, since in hm ec kephess' rupture attack hits for about 11k in 8 man...