Jump to content

Light Side Sith: Anti-Villain?


RepublicGurl

Recommended Posts

"As he had all the wickedness against which damnation is denounced and for which hell fire is prepared, so he had virtues which have caused men in all ages to be celebrated." -Edward Hyde

 

---

 

Warning: Slightly long read ahead!

 

---

 

I was discussing gameplay and experience with my roomate, Krissie, a few days ago and it brought up a set of questions.

 

Questions to which I would like to read others' responses and opinions to.

 

So this is what happened: Krissie is rolling a Dark Jedi Knight, and loves it. And while I am playing a Light Jedi Knight, I decided to "spice" things up by RPing a female Light Sith Warrior as well, to mirror her Dark Knight.

 

... and being me, I am repelled by almost anything Dark Side. (I'm a sap, I know.)

 

Anyway, we were talking and Krissie says almost as an after thought, "You know, I like watching movies with the good-guy heroes, but I think I like playing an anti-hero even better."

 

I shrugged and said, "So... if you're an anti-hero, what does that make my Sith Warrior? Because it's not like she goes out and kills everyone, or is totally insane. I don't really see her as the bad guy."

 

Krissie said; "Maybe you're Sith is an anti-villain, then. I mean, she lives and enforces a tyrant Empire, even if she has admirable morals herself."

 

---

 

So my question to you all: (and feel free to be elaborate as you want, provide in-game story details or your own philosophical reasons) Do you consider the Light Side Warrior/Inquisitor to be an anti-villain? Or, by comparison, the Dark Side Jedi Knight/Consular to be an anti-hero?

 

If so, or not, why?

 

I'm just... really curious as to everyone's views.

 

---

 

NOTE: Anti-hero is defined as; (according to TV-tropes) a villain with heroic goals, personality traits, and virtues. Their desired ends are good, but their means of getting there can be defined as evil.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It's shades of gray. There is no complete black or white, good or bad. What you are doing is creating a multi-faceted character, and to me, that makes it far more interesting, and adds depth and interest to your game play.

 

I created a light-sided Sith. She is Level V light side, level 50, and far more interesting to me than if she'd been fully dark. Did she make dark choices along the way? Yes, but in the end, her light choices outweighed the dark, and she earned her Pure title, although she does not wear it.

 

I am going to create a Jedi and do the same thing, but in reverse, like your roommate. The Jedi struggle against their dark tendencies, so it makes sense for some of them to be anti-heroes, just as it makes sense for some Sith to be anti-villains and to see a different path for the future, however fruitless their hopes may be.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

While I do think that Dark Jedi do qualify as anti-heroes, I don't think that Light Side Sith can qualify as anti-villains. To be a villain, you, basically, must be the bad guy. Allow me to explain.

 

My Sith Warrior is Grey, and I don't really see him as a "bad guy". He's honest and loyal, he truly believes that Imperial order will make the Galaxy a better place. He treats his position as a nobleman with full responsibility and uses the authority of a ranking Sith to strengthen the Empire and to provide for its subjects. He despises Sith who succumb to their base passions, viewing them as a threat to the integrity of the Empire.

 

That said, he is not a wholly "nice" guy. A traitor dies, for such is the Imperial law. A Republic spy dies, for he is the enemy of the Empire. An enemy dies, because such are the realities of the time of war.

 

 

So what I'm trying to say is - despite how obvious this may sound, "good" and "bad" are kind of relative in ToR, at least faction-wise. Yeah, the Empire committed many atrocities, and many of the ruling Sith are corrupt. This, however, doesn't mean that there are no patriots who truly believe in the Empire's ideals and those who want to make the Galaxy a better place. Story-wise, our characters appear to be of a generation that had nothing to do with the initial war - and, basically, they work with what they have, according to their convictions and their moral compass.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Anti-Villain's believe (somewhat delusion-ally) they are doing whats best, by doing things they know are bad.

 

Like Ozymandias in the Watchman movie, who nuked every major city, to save the world from nuclear war.

 

Or Saren, who believed he could save the galaxy by allowing the Reapers to enslave it, rather than destroy it.

 

... Light Sith are not like that.

 

They do good things (well gooder than normal Sith anyway), but it's always for a bad end. Because helping the Empire is always bad.

Edited by AngelousWang
Link to comment
Share on other sites

It's shades of gray. There is no complete black or white, good or bad. What you are doing is creating a multi-faceted character, and to me, that makes it far more interesting, and adds depth and interest to your game play.

 

I agree with you 110%. :) I love this idea that my the Warrior does have morals even if she may be seen as a villain by others.

 

Even though this is a game, I can totally see my Warrior as a character that people might be able to relate to. (Sans having mystical Force powers, of course! :p)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

While I do think that Dark Jedi do qualify as anti-heroes, I don't think that Light Side Sith can qualify as anti-villains. To be a villain, you, basically, must be the bad guy. Allow me to explain.

 

My Sith Warrior is Grey, and I don't really see him as a "bad guy". He's honest and loyal, he truly believes that Imperial order will make the Galaxy a better place. He treats his position as a nobleman with full responsibility and uses the authority of a ranking Sith to strengthen the Empire and to provide for its subjects. He despises Sith who succumb to their base passions, viewing them as a threat to the integrity of the Empire.

 

That said, he is not a wholly "nice" guy. A traitor dies, for such is the Imperial law. A Republic spy dies, for he is the enemy of the Empire. An enemy dies, because such are the realities of the time of war.

 

 

So what I'm trying to say is - despite how obvious this may sound, "good" and "bad" are kind of relative in ToR, at least faction-wise. Yeah, the Empire committed many atrocities, and many of the ruling Sith are corrupt. This, however, doesn't mean that there are no patriots who truly believe in the Empire's ideals and those who want to make the Galaxy a better place. Story-wise, our characters appear to be of a generation that had nothing to do with the initial war - and, basically, they work with what they have, according to their convictions and their moral compass.

 

... You just took me to school. :D

 

I gotta get Krissie to read this tonite- we are so gonna end up debating! :rolleyes:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

They do good things (well gooder than normal Sith anyway), but it's always for a bad end. Because helping the Empire is always bad.

 

Disagree. The Empire was created by military men as a war machine. Strict discipline, subordination and order are pretty much in the blood and mother's milk of every imperial. If you're suggesting that it's democracy or EVIL, I'll be siding with the Empire on this one (despite being a pretty dedicated Republic player).

 

... You just took me to school. :D

 

I gotta get Krissie to read this tonite- we are so gonna end up debating! :rolleyes:

 

Glad to provide food for thought\debate\trolling.;)

Edited by Helig
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Disagree. The Empire was created by military men as a war machine. Strict discipline, subordination and order are pretty much in the blood and mother's milk of every imperial. If you're suggesting that it's democracy or you're EVIL, I'll be siding with the Empire on this one (despite being a pretty dedicated Republic player).

 

No the Empire was created by Sith, because Sith need an army to conquer the galaxy for there own self-centered and egotistical ends.

 

If there was no Sith there would be no Empire.

 

The Empire is just a tool, a weapon to for one man to get his way.

 

... If this were a normal Empire, maybe. But this is a Sith Empire.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

No the Empire was created by Sith, because Sith need an army to conquer the galaxy for there own self-centered and egotistical ends.

 

If there was no Sith there would be no Empire.

 

The Empire is just a tool, a weapon to for one man to get his way.

 

... If this were a normal Empire, maybe. But this is a Sith Empire.

 

Thing is - the Sith are a ruling class, they are using the Empire to achieve their goals, sure. However, the Empire is not Sith. Just look at our average politician - you'd think your very own country is a tool for liars and hypocrites to become richer and to spread their economical and political influence beyond the borders of their country.

 

The backbone of the Empire are regular people. The game shows them as proud, sometimes arrogant, but also patriotic, loyal and brave. To me (and my grey Sith character) those people are the Empire, not the paranoid crooks who plot against eachother in dark tombs.

Edited by Helig
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thing is - the Sith are a ruling class, they are using the Empire to achieve their goals, sure. However, the Empire is not Sith. Just look at our average politician - you'd think your very own country is a tool for liars and hypocrites to become richer and to spread their economical and political influence beyond the borders of their country.

 

The backbone of the Empire are regular people. The game shows them as proud, sometimes arrogant, but also patriotic, loyal and brave. To me (and my grey Sith character) those people are the Empire, not the paranoid crooks who plot against eachother in dark tombs.

 

 

The Empire is a gun, the Sith are guys point and pulling the trigger. The gun has no say, while it may not be directly evil, it is an evil thing by proxy as it is being used for an evil purpose.

 

So putting armour piercing bullets in the gun (helping the Empire), is always a bad thing.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I've likened the Sith Empire to the German "Empire" of WWII. Sure, it's led by people who are an emitter short of a lightsabre but there are good people caught up in all of it. They do "bad" things, but it's the context of war and a tyrannical government.

 

So, a Light Side Sith Warrior or Inquisitor is a pretty odd concept, given the nature of the Dark Side. I don't think it works too well within the story. Even as Lord Scourge in the Revan book learned about the light side, it was still to use it for his own benefit, rather than that of the greater good, which is something that defines the light side.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

No one thinks of themselves as a bad guy or evil person. You always label it to the other and vice versa as it is a point of view and opinion and we all know how our opinion is right and everyone else is wrong.

 

Samurai and knights. Both have honor but it is in different ways. Both feel they have done "right" by their superiors / empire, though the actions of either can be very different or even evil to the other.

 

The Sith lead, but even amongst them they do have an ideal to how you should live, and they dont just kill eat other at the flip of a coin hence why they survive and exist.

 

I have a LS Sorc and i play him like a true patriot of the Empire, his desires is to make the Empire strong and protect it at all costs while also preventing infighting and wasting of resources (people as well). Just like the Sith, the Empire must learn to be strong and not cry about things being tough, much like a Icelanders mentality.

 

LS Empire i see being more like this, and the odd traitor as the person who accepts the morals of the republic instead of what they were raised in.

 

Just my 2 cents.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The Empire is not inherently evil. The people in charge may be psychotic and evil, but the entire Empire is not. A light Sided Sith is someone who has the integrity and discipline to maintain a personal code, despite the pressure to to give in to darkness. A lightsided Sith kills, but not senselessly. A Light Sith is willing to make personal sacrifices to advance the Empire's goals. He's a villain, he does bad things and fights the "good guys", but in a lot of ways he's on the moral high-ground.

 

The Anti-Villain is the bad guy you respect; the villain who lectures the hero on morality; the willing Martyr for the Darkness.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

All of my sith are traitors at heart, and they take every opportunity to undermine the empire. They even refuse some missions, just because they know there is no good ending, even with the light side choice.

 

They told the jedi on korriban the truth that he was being manipulated after helping him escape. They refused to poison the slaves on Dromund Kaas with a quick death. They're still rebelling last time I visited. I have dozens more examples.

 

If I could have had a choice to stay with my SW master, I would have joined him just to have the chance to kill the emperor myself. As it is, I plot against the emperor from the inside, and I patiently wait for my opportunity.

 

Yeah, my sith are anti-villain.

Edited by Hambunctious
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Play the Imperial Agent story if you question whether the Empire is evil or not. The Agent delves heavily into that thin, blurry red line that seldom runs straight between good and evil. Are there evil people in the Empire who do horrific things? Yes. Are many of the Sith who call the shots a few sandwiches short of a picnic or just plain sociopathic? Yes. Are there reformers who use their positions of power to curb the excesses of the first two? Yes. Are there men and women who have seen both Republic and Empire intimately, virtues and flaws, and decided to aid the Empire? Yes. Are there blindly obedient soldiers and subjects of the Empire who follow because it's all they know? Yes. Are there people who acknowledge the Empire's faults but all the same fight for their home and nation against a paranoid expansionist power called the Republic? Yes.

 

To simply label the Empire as evil, particularly if you also label the Republic as good, is the error of those who haven't looked closely at either.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The Empire is a gun, the Sith are guys point and pulling the trigger. The gun has no say, while it may not be directly evil, it is an evil thing by proxy as it is being used for an evil purpose.

 

So putting armour piercing bullets in the gun (helping the Empire), is always a bad thing.

 

So trying to make that "gun" into something more than just a weapon is bad? Honestly believing that Imperial way of life brings prosperity?

 

Besides,

Light Side Sith, during their storyline, are secretly working on reforming the Empire from within, trying to overthrow the corrupt Sith that run it.

 

 

Pretty sure it does make them "good guys".

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The Empire is not inherently evil. The people in charge may be psychotic and evil, but the entire Empire is not. A light Sided Sith is someone who has the integrity and discipline to maintain a personal code, despite the pressure to to give in to darkness. A lightsided Sith kills, but not senselessly. A Light Sith is willing to make personal sacrifices to advance the Empire's goals. He's a villain, he does bad things and fights the "good guys", but in a lot of ways he's on the moral high-ground.

 

The Anti-Villain is the bad guy you respect; the villain who lectures the hero on morality; the willing Martyr for the Darkness.

 

... That's an interesting way of putting it. I, personally, do not see my Warrior as a "hero" in the view that she's about saving others above herself, or that she is entirely selfless.

 

In fact, most of what she does in some way benefits her- or, so it starts out at that way where she is concerned. (Later character development- mainly for my story -is that her "dabbling" in the Light Side begins to change her outlook on everything she was raised to believe in. Once she tastes the power of the Light, it is only a matter of time before she gives herself over to It fully...)

 

She doesn't believe in the "glory of the Empire" simply because it is all she practically knows. In fact, it is with a bit of removed disdain that my Warrior even became a Sith culturally (even though she is one biologically.)

 

She has come to believe and rely only on herself, but she also has no ill-will towards the non-Force sensitives and slaves.

 

Some of my favorite moments in my Warrior's storyline are:

 

 

When my Warrior takes off Vette's collar and tells her that basically she had no hand in it. I love how, while my Warrior will not take someone else's slave/and/or servant and free them because of a bleeding heart, she doesn't put up with it with her subjects.

 

She embodies compassion, but isn't about to let it become all consuming. The best way to sum up her sense of kindness is this; she might go out of her way not to beat a puppy, and even feed a starving one. But if said puppy came to her and tried to cuddle or play, she'd step away from it.

 

 

One other element I absolutely loved was when:

 

 

On Dromund Kaas, there was that Quest to go into the caves and close the doors/chambers to lock the awakened Sith's spirit. (Or something like that- I cannot remember in perfect detail.)

 

In the end, you have the choice to lock the chamber, or converse with the Sith, who actually tells my Warrior about anger and fear not being a source of strength, and the Light Side helping with inner peace. That the reason he was locked away was because his teachings were heresy and made the Sith in power nervous. (Again- not verbatim as my memory sorely lacks...)

 

 

When I came across that, I was not sure whether to choose the Dark option or not, and then I considered what my Warrior would do if she were real. And my Warrior is all about self-empowerment and control: whether that comes from the Dark Side of the Force or not.

 

... Basically, my Warrior is "good" in the sense that she has her own subjective views of morality and does not impose her will on others (to an extent), but she isn't a hero.

 

Don't know if that still makes her and anti-villain, though. :confused:

Edited by RepublicGurl
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Don't worry, I'm avoiding spoilers because I found the Sith Warrior really DOES seem to have the best "Lightside" Empire story arc for Chapter 1.

 

It sounds like you haven't gotten to Tatooine yet.

Once you do there's a mission there for your LS Sith at the Oasis that if you're going LS will explain your motiviations more.

 

Once you reach the end of Chapter 1, when you're talking to your newest companion, it will ALL become clear.

 

There were a few inconsistancies... most espcially the missions near the end of Alderann at House Organa, but once you get to the end of Chapter 1 does make a case for why you did what you did.

 

Actualy the ony one I couldn't expain away was the mission where you fly out to the ship in space after Alderann. The Light Side choice at the very end seemed more dark (and from a certian point of view even MORE dark the the "Darkside" choices)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'll admit that is my "idealized" version of the Light-Sided Sith. A more neutral Light sider simply treats people like people, instead of chattel and pawns. They don't kill without a good reason, and don't kick dogs as they walk down the street, but don't expect them to go out on a limb for anyone. That type of Sith isn't an Anti-villain so much as they're the typical bystander, the Non-hero. She does what she has to, and if someone gets hurt because of it she might feel bad, but she might not. She'll listen when spoken to, but might not always follow every command to the letter.

 

I wouldn't call your character an anti-villain, I'd say something like Selfish Neutral, Non-Hero, or a Passive Villain.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Empire isn't evil. The ruling class [sith] is numerous and completely out of control. They are the problem. Get rid of them and hell yeah, the Empire is way better than the decadent, corrupt, crumbling Republic, which is probably why they wind up being the chief power in the EU.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm currently leveling a neutral-to-dark (or Dark Grey, if you like) Sith Warrior as my main character. I have made plenty of LS choices so far, and I felt that each one of them was justified given the way I imagine and view my character.

 

When Vette asked me to remove her slave collar, I did so at once. The reason was not so much out of mercy or pity, but because at this point I had recognized that she's useful and I realized she'd be even more useful if she's not miserable. And besides, wanton cruelty means nothing to my character. When he kills or tortures someone, it's not for pleasure, it's always with a purpose. It served no purpose to torment Vette and now I have a useful and willing servant in her instead of a slave who hates my guts.

 

Later, when I

broke the resistance on Balmorra, I chose to spare the lives of Grand Marshal Cheketta and his men. It wasn't because I took pity on the broken old man but because in exchange for his life, I forced him to publically admit the Republic's involvement in the resistance on Balmorra thus exposing their violation of the Treaty. This was a more decisive victory than anything that would have come out of sensless and brutish evilness.

 

 

On Tatooine, when I

followed Jaesa's trails and went to the Oasis and was confronted by the DS Force apparation of myself, I stood my ground and refused to give in blindly to the darkness, because I'm not a slave to my Id. My character is being exactly the person he wants to be, and he's not going to give up his freedom to the Force, be it Light or Dark. I use the Force, not the other way around. With that in mind, the DS-me had some good points that I listened to and now I'm a tad more ruthless and totally convinced that I should betray and kill Baras at the first opportunity.

 

 

Now I'm on Alderaan and I'm

tracking down Jaesa's family. I'm going to kill them and then I'm going to try and turn Jaesa to the Dark Side while still walking the line that mantains one's free will.

 

 

There are of course many more instances where I defined what sort of a person my character is. Overall, I'd say that he's definately a villain, even though his alignment isn't that dark. He doesn't have qualms about commiting murder and even if he shows mercy it's always with an agenda in mind.

However, he is not a monster and he wouldn't hurt or kill someone who isn't a threat or a tool. He's not a raging maniac. He's also neither a true patriot, nor a loyal and devout Sith. The rampant jingoism of the Imperials is appaling and most Sith are just slaves to their basic animalistic urges. No, my Sith Warrior is out for himself only.

This is what the Dark Side means to him - one's goal should be to break free of the shackles of morality and obedience in order to be able to truly reach out and grab his dreams. But he's also cunning enough to realize that you can't just take on the whole world and flip it off. Hence he's biding his time, watches his back and is always ready to go up the Empire's heriarchy. Baras is a dead man, but I always fake toadiness when with him - the time will come and he'll get what he deserves.

 

See the beauty of the neutral alignment? This a nuanced character, whose actions are controversial and don't follow a simple pattern. But he's definately a villain. Just not the typical rampaging brute or a cackling madman.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

NOTE: Anti-hero is defined as; (according to TV-tropes) a villain with heroic goals, personality traits, and virtues. Their desired ends are good, but their means of getting there can be defined as evil.

 

Good topic, because today I started a dark-side consular. Just to be clear, this isn't about being grey - or having my own morals - I am forcing myself to, if there is a choice, to accept the dark-side option and so play as the story leads me. I have a smuggler that is grey, an inquisitor that is dark and a knight who is light so this is my first run through the 'opposite' side to how you'd expect for a faction.

 

I wanted to say though that the definition of anti-hero given doesn't describe my dark-side consular ... purely based on the levels 1-10 I should add. The dark side choices so far have been selfish and nothing to do with heroic goals, traits or virtues..

 

 

Taking a bribe to stay quiet about the two padwans romantically involved.

Killing the pilgrims who want to take the holo-projector rather than persuading them nicely (FYI I wasn't trying to hold onto the holo-projector for my master, I wanted the secrets it held).

Killing flesh-eaters in a rampage rather than using holocom to call for an airlift out, because I wanted to kill things

 

 

I am enjoying the break from the cloying goody goody control your emotion play of light side Jedi, but I do find it very amusing how I am just given a stern talking to when, for example, I killed the pilgrims or called my masters friend an ugly monster, and still get to graduate as a Jedi :)

It is like carte-blanche: I know the quest chain will still carry on whatever I do, so I can be as rude as I like, rise to anger and kill anyone that gets in my way, lie, cheat, work for personal profit and various other things that would ordinarily get me a promotion if I was a Sith.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think you get some of the most interesting characterizations and concepts by playing 'Against the grain' so to speak.

 

Light side Sith, Dark side Jedi, etc. It's a little less dramatic with other classes, since by definition they are naturally 'grey' and not as polarized.

 

However, I play my Sith as someone who sees and recognizes that at the very top the Empire is broken, that the Emperor is insane and the Empire does not adhere to the values it espouses. However, she firmly believe sin those values, and believes that if the Empire could be brought in line with them, it would be a good thing. She believes in the idea of a meritocracy (Being a slave who became a Sith Lord by her own merits, that's an understandable position). She doesn't coddle the weak, but at the same time feels that people should not be held down, and given the chance to show that they can be more than fodder (The troops on Hoth, who she endorsed as being able to surprise the Moff who dismissed them as 'disposable'). She's not seen much from the Jedi that's so admirable... her experience has shown her Jedi who have abandoned and dismissed those that loved them and sacrificed everything for them to pursue the power the Order could give them, Jedi who manipulated whole races to fight their wars for them, creating the schism between the peoples of Voss and condemning them to eternal conflict. The Sith are no better, true, but they are at least honest about what they do and what they are.

 

I'm planning a Jedi alt next, darkside, and see how that goes.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

as a LS Sih it's a huge balancing act if nothing else. You try the change the empire from within while still having to represent the empires interests in order to save the empire from being overwhelmed, thus getting you/many other killed eventually and also eventually let the Sith rise again, same as they were before with no peace in sight unless one side completely kills off the other one. So you basically end up, more often than not, doing the wrong (bad) things, but for the right reasons. Compared to a Jedi... you act more on compassion than justice without emotional connection, in the end many things they do (or rather, they DON'T do) may be considered evil from a LS Sith perspective.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

This is the thing I love most about this game, the moral choices you have to make can be brutal and I have never felt as attached to a character in any game as I do my Agent.

 

 

On Nar Shaddaa when Watcher X offers me all the information on Kaliyo and Imperial Intelligence I had to leave my computer and have a coffee before I could decide, in the end I chose to let them have their secrets as my loyalty was foremost to the Empire but golly it was hard

 

 

I didn't reach dark 1 until the end of act 1.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

×
×
  • Create New...