I kinda want to be upset that the thread has been hijacked by theorycrafters, but at the same time people are viewing it now and knowing about the bug. So that is good.

Stop pretending to be using math. You're going off gut feeling. Show me your "math" if it exists.

 

The Math for diminishing returns for critical strike:

 

For ease of use, all other things are equal.

 

For each 1% chance to critically strike an enemy, it provides a static increase to the statistical dps a character will do. It's important to note the word "static" in this formula. This is to say 1% increase in crit will provide a character that does 1000 dps an extra 10 dps. Now the character is doing 1010 dps (I'm using easy math for this, nothing too complicated). Now 10 dps over 1000 is a 1% increase.

 

Now the player chooses to increase crit another 1%. Now the character is doing 1020 dps. But the increase of 10 dps from 1010 dps to 1020 dps is NOT a 1% increase, it is slightly less than 1%. Over time and along the curve, if you do you f(x) limit as crit approaches 100% (or 1 in the math terms), you'll see the curve show diminishing returns over time and how valuable crit is at certain points along the curve.

 

Power as a stat suffers from the same diminishing returns, but not subject to the RNG detractor that crit is.

 

So what you have to do is go along the curve to find the value per point of increase of each stat: surge, power, and crit. And balance them accordingly to pick the best gear that has the largest increase of value per point provided along each curve.

 

I would be willing to do the actual analysis as I have crystal ball on my computer if it is of serious interest to the player base.

Edited January 25, 2012 by NikonNikkor

Come back from class and a ****-storm erupted. Dayum.

 

Hey guys -

 

Thanks for this feedback. We will investigate this issue.

 

-Cameron

 

 

Thank you. I'm surprised no one responded to this.

 

 

Also, saying I'm not good at the class is just silly. If you read the conversation I was having with Tumri I conceded that, with the same gear setup, my tests provided that Annihilation did do more damage but not to the "Carnage is absolute ****" extent people have been exclaiming. This is extremely similar to the Assassination vs Combat debate (funny how the names are similar) Rogues had during the first 2 tiers of Cataclysm. On paper Mutilate does more DPS but, in practice, you can get away with using either one. I'm heavily getting that vibe from these two trees and, considering BioWare's stance, is pretty much how it's going to stay.

 

A lot of this probably has to do with 1) the Bleedout bug; 2) the massive amount of passive Accuracy Carnage gets. Having 113.6% as Carnage and going down to 110.6% with Annihilation means a lot of that Accuracy isn't wasted; and 3) Power is an incredibly useful stat. Only having 50 Power as Carnage probably contributes a lot to the vast difference of performance you experienced. Because of the instant Crits we get Crit is devauled.

Edited January 26, 2012 by Kibaken

The Math for diminishing returns for critical strike:

 

For ease of use, all other things are equal.

 

For each 1% chance to critically strike an enemy, it provides a static increase to the statistical dps a character will do. It's important to note the word "static" in this formula. This is to say 1% increase in crit will provide a character that does 1000 dps an extra 10 dps. Now the character is doing 1010 dps (I'm using easy math for this, nothing too complicated). Now 10 dps over 1000 is a 1% increase.

 

You're describing diminishing marginal returns. The crit rating -> crit% conversion itself has a pretty strong diminishing return in it directly, which caps out at 29.999%.

it never will. by the math you need 100% crit damage and you would need to have over 50% chance to crit at the start to make it mathmatically possible.

 

Mmm, surge.

The Math for diminishing returns for critical strike:

 

For ease of use, all other things are equal.

 

For each 1% chance to critically strike an enemy, it provides a static increase to the statistical dps a character will do. It's important to note the word "static" in this formula. This is to say 1% increase in crit will provide a character that does 1000 dps an extra 10 dps. Now the character is doing 1010 dps (I'm using easy math for this, nothing too complicated). Now 10 dps over 1000 is a 1% increase.

 

Now the player chooses to increase crit another 1%. Now the character is doing 1020 dps. But the increase of 10 dps from 1010 dps to 1020 dps is NOT a 1% increase, it is slightly less than 1%. Over time and along the curve, if you do you f(x) limit as crit approaches 100% (or 1 in the math terms), you'll see the curve show diminishing returns over time and how valuable crit is at certain points along the curve.

 

Power as a stat suffers from the same diminishing returns, but not subject to the RNG detractor that crit is.

 

So what you have to do is go along the curve to find the value per point of increase of each stat: surge, power, and crit. And balance them accordingly to pick the best gear that has the largest increase of value per point provided along each curve.

 

I would be willing to do the actual analysis as I have crystal ball on my computer if it is of serious interest to the player base.

 

I wasn't referring to the math behind DR. I was asking for whatever "math" he used to determine that 25% crit total was the end of crit's usefulness at which point you stack power to the sky. Obviously he didn't actually have any mathematical evidence to support this so he just kept babbling on and I left out of frustration.

Edited January 26, 2012 by Tumri

Re: the original topic

 

Has anyone tested whether this hit-box bug is unique to Ataru form? There are number of other similar effects in the game (e.g. Shadow/Assassin stance procs).

 

Re: theory-crafting

 

I made some spreadsheets of my own for Carnage at Level 50 during the last beta build, and they are still accurate as far as the ability damage goes. These calculated the derivative of each ability's expected damage with respect all stats (the derivative is calculated analytically, talent effects and group buffs were included, and the combat table - crits, misses, avoidance, mitigation, etc - was included).

 

Knowing how much 1 point of each stat will increase every ability, I could make a weighted sum over all abilities, based on how often each ability is used in combat, to estimate how much one point of each stat increased my overall DPS.

 

Power came out well ahead of everything else up to the gear level I reached (which admittedly wasn't raid level, but I was fully geared out with whatever mods you can get with dailies, and had about 850 points of secondary stats). Crit, Surge and Accuracy were nowhere near as effective, even with very high Power.

 

My stats, and the value (normalized to +1 Strength) of an additional point:

 

Strength: 1150 (+1)

Power: 337 (+0.98)

Accuracy Rating: 97 (+0.57)

Critical Rating: 142 (+0.64)

Surge Rating: 273 (+0.61)

 

 

The averaging over abilities and some assumed target defensive characteristics is not perfect, but the difference between Power and everything else is enormous. The point is that I can't imagine that a Carnage build with only 50 Power is going to be optimal for the spec.

 

Re: Diminishing Returns

 

There is a handy rule for understanding the DR on ratings.

 

The bonus from an additional point of rating is proportional to the fraction of the cap remaining above your current bonus.

 

Example: the cap on the bonus from Critical Rating is 30%. If you already have a +10% bonus from Critical Rating, the next point will add only 2/3's the bonus of your first point, because you are 20% under the 30% cap for this bonus, and 20%/30% = 2/3's.

 

If you had a +20% bonus from Critical Rating, the next point would only add 1/3 as much as the first point.

 

And so on.

Edited January 26, 2012 by LagunaD

Re: the original topic

 

Has anyone tested whether this hit-box bug is unique to Ataru form? There are number of other similar effects in the game (e.g. Shadow/Assassin stance procs).

 

 

 

Messed around on both Garhj and Karagga and I can confirm it's a distance-from-target issue with large hitbox enemies.

 

Also, there's talk in sw.com boss defense chance may be 8% instead of 10%, meaning we only need 108% Accuracy.

 

http://sithwarrior.com/forums/Thread-Arsenal-Mercenary-Gunnery-Commando-DPS-Compendium?page=18

 

No confirming information but it may be something to look into.

Edited January 26, 2012 by Kibaken

Also, there's talk in sw.com boss defense chance may be 8% instead of 10%, meaning we only need 108% Accuracy.

 

If the data (which was collected by watching video-captures of boss fights for deflects/evades) is right, 10% is pretty much ruled out.

 

But this sort of visual testing (admittedly, all you can do without a log) seems really error prone to me.

 

Given that they haven't given us the tools for a reliable in-game determination, it would be really nice if Georg Z or somebody else could just tell us what the melee/ranged avoidance for bosses is.

Have a question.

 

My accuracy is at 100% (10% after bonus is included)

My special accuracy is at 110%

 

I'm still seeing some 'miss' hit.... is that from offhand? I notice when I strike, a pair of dmg comes up, and one of them is a miss.

 

Is there anyway at all to improve offhand accuracy?

Your primary weapon begins with 90% accuracy, your offhand weapon begins with 50% accuracy, hence why you're seeing misses.

 

 

Have a question.

 

My accuracy is at 100% (10% after bonus is included)

My special accuracy is at 110%

 

I'm still seeing some 'miss' hit.... is that from offhand? I notice when I strike, a pair of dmg comes up, and one of them is a miss.

 

Is there anyway at all to improve offhand accuracy?

Hello everyone -

 

Thanks to you, we have identified the issue causing this problem and are currently working on a fix. We'll roll out the fix in a future content patch - watch the Public Test Server for an update.

 

Thanks for your feedback!

 

- Cameron

If the data (which was collected by watching video-captures of boss fights for deflects/evades) is right, 10% is pretty much ruled out.

 

But this sort of visual testing (admittedly, all you can do without a log) seems really error prone to me.

 

Given that they haven't given us the tools for a reliable in-game determination, it would be really nice if Georg Z or somebody else could just tell us what the melee/ranged avoidance for bosses is.

 

This^

 

Accuracy rating causes me to rage when I'm trying to min/max because It's an internal struggle debating what to do with the stat. On one hand I might be losing out on a ton of DPS by keeping accuracy when it's useless. On the other hand I might be losing out on a ton of DPS by not being accuracy capped. Bioware needs to take 10 seconds to post "Yes the accuracy cap is 110% specials" or "No accuracy doesn't really have an effect on your hits".

Hello everyone -

 

Thanks to you, we have identified the issue causing this problem and are currently working on a fix. We'll roll out the fix in a future content patch - watch the Public Test Server for an update.

 

Thanks for your feedback!

 

- Cameron

 

These types of bugs would be FAR easier to root out, document, and report if we had a combat log....

 

Just saying.

 

Help me, help you.

 

Help ME, HELP YOU.

 

HELP ME, HELP YOU!

Your primary weapon begins with 90% accuracy, your offhand weapon begins with 50% accuracy, hence why you're seeing misses.

 

Can you point to where this is documented? I keep seeing quotes like this across many issues but I'm unable to find any documentation.

Can you point to where this is documented? I keep seeing quotes like this across many issues but I'm unable to find any documentation.

 

It's in your character stats on mouseover, it displays your primary weapon accuracy and your offhand weapon accuracy.

Can you point to where this is documented? I keep seeing quotes like this across many issues but I'm unable to find any documentation.

 

it's in your character sheet in the game... doesn't need to be documented... over your cursor over the accuracy number and a box will pop up that explains it all.

Honestly the numbers all of you have posted for Carnage are really low and my numbers are at least twice that my average Force Scream crit's are from 3400-4000 I'm in mostly all 136 gear.

 

This leads me to believe that people that are saying annihilation is better then Carnage do not know how to play Carnage, as for the dps test on council goes I kill my marauder add before the other marauder (who is annihilation) in my group does.

 

I have also seen countless PvP/PvE streams and videos and all of those annihilation marauders have way smaller numbers than I do, even my overall damage in WZ's is way higher than most Annihilation Marauders.

if you were good at the class, you would know. Its not a "feeling" but when an annihilation marauder in the exact same gear with exact same player can kill something is a much shorter time then carnage, logic dictates it does more damage.

 

 

Carnage is built around a 6 second debuff, annihilation is not it can also do damage while not on target. Carnage also has many wasted talents when it comes to raiding. For instance "Overwhelm" it sounds good and everything 2 points to root your ravage target, however it does not work on bosses, and if you play correctly you won't ravage when you know the target is gonna move 2 wasted points, "Narrowed Hatred" it is +3% to hit, sounds great, but atrau forms does that as well, and our teir gear is littered with accuracy, you have to basicaly steal other people gear to re-mod everything to be able to make use of the talented hit, 3 more points wasted or you burden you raid with an excess of states and much slower gearing up.

 

 

Annihilation never has "burst" moments like Carnage however in a raid situation nothing is better then consistancy, and no spec in the game right now can provide more consistant damage then Annihialtion.

 

Some people have been play this class for 8+ months, you might want to listen to people who have more experiance with the class then you can even get before the fall. Carnage used to be closer to Annihilation, but they changed that in the beta when they made Force scream a 9 second talented cooldown instead of 6 second.

 

That is just in damage, now in Utility no class in the game comes close to an annihilation marauder in a raid. With a 12 second leap and 6 second hard interrupt you can keep pretty much any mob from ever casting anything, no other class can solo lock down a mob. Take the 2 "bodyguards" in Kraggas palace, one is a "tank" the other is a "healer" that fight is stupid easy with a smart marauder because a smart marauder can take the healer out of the fight and leave everyone else to kill the "tank" with rotating saber ward, cloack of pain obsfucate, you can actually tank him because he doesn't do much damage and hes busy trying to heal.

 

Carnage is just inferior to Annihlation in ever way possible for PvE.

 

well said Hizoka

TBH its kind of a pointless argument. Anhilation brings party heals, while pulling as much dps as carnage, and thats enough reason never to roll anything else for raiding. Taking a little bit of effort off your healers is tremendously helpful, esp for fights where their is a lot of aoe dmg. Edited January 30, 2012 by harrisonxxi

TBH its kind of a pointless argument. Anhilation brings party heals, while pulling as much dps as carnage, and thats enough reason never to roll anything else for raiding. Taking a little bit of effort off your healers is tremendously helpful, esp for fights where their is a lot of aoe dmg.

 

though my teasting its pull a crapton more. so much more you gimp your raid by being carnage.

Test as much as you want, if you can't play properly carnage will indeed seem inferior.

 

I regularly raid NM with marauders who have almost exactly the same gear as me, 2 of them infact.

 

both are anni, and both know how to play, as do I know how to play my carnage spec.

 

I pull far more agroo then they ever will.

 

I kill my infernal council boss considerably faster then them, taking into account various hp diffrences on bosses etc.

 

Carnage if played and geared correctly has infact quite a bit higher damage potential, of course the two marauders in my raid group are as stubborn as you in that they keep claiming anni is better dps.

 

What they fail to realise is that unlike them I actually have to use my force camo to drop agroo .

 

 

 

Back to the actual issue at hand, I have noticed this bug aswell, especially on gharj its noticeable, and my rep side sentinel just got to 40 today and got blade rush, and bug is even worse there, happens even on normal mobs.

Edited January 30, 2012 by Munx

Test as much as you want, if you can't play properly carnage will indeed seem inferior.

 

I regularly raid NM with marauders who have almost exactly the same gear as me, 2 of them infact.

 

both are anni, and both know how to play, as do I know how to play my carnage spec.

 

I pull far more agroo then they ever will.

 

I kill my infernal council boss considerably faster then them, taking into account various hp diffrences on bosses etc.

 

Carnage if played and geared correctly has infact quite a bit higher damage potential, of course the two marauders in my raid group are as stubborn as you in that they keep claiming anni is better dps.

 

What they fail to realise is that unlike them I actually have to use my force camo to drop agroo .

 

 

 

Back to the actual issue at hand, I have noticed this bug aswell, especially on gharj its noticeable, and my rep side sentinel just got to 40 today and got blade rush, and bug is even worse there, happens even on normal mobs.

then they are bad annis... i pull aggro though guard and have to force cammo constantly...

then they are bad annis... i pull aggro though guard and have to force cammo constantly...

 

Btw Hizoka, what is your opinion on dots getting cleansed? I noticed that whenever I'm fighting premades, my total damage would drop about 30-40k, while my range teammates' dmg would stay roughly the same. I'm actually temped to retry carnage to see if the dmg output can be any higher. What do you think?

 

http://i.imgur.com/OtH6b.jpg

the whole marauder class is a joke its 50% jugg and 50% wannabe darth mauls.

 

That isnt true because darth maul uses a double lightsaber so that means Shadows are more like him and since when can a maruader use shield generators and Heavy armor