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Why Pre-made raid groups and fully equip ships, actually harm GSF and PvP matches.


Akabelleth

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I am beyond sick and tired of waiting for a GSF que to trigger only to find myself against a republic group with fully equipped ships. Its as though the developers want to punish you for daring to play Galactic Star Fighter matches. I enjoy pvp but not when its clear that no matter how hard I play or try to work with my team, I lose the match in a brutal fashion.

 

This is the same problem in Unranked Warzones for PvP, I have seen too many pre-made raid groups in full ranked gear, dominating matches especially when the other team is not equally geared. This is a flaw that must be corrected if you wish this game to stand the test of time. I don't mind paying my dues but I do want an equal shot at winning, especially if you are going to allow the playing field to be so skewed to one side's favor.

 

Either make it easier to grind out requisition points, i.e. let us gear up our ships faster or gate the GSF matches to ensure parity between the teams. It really isn't that hard and would make an awesome part of the game actually enjoyable.

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I enjoy it.

 

Sounds like you are doing something wrong.

 

 

Consider cjoining gsf channel and finding a team. You know, for the team game.

 

I didn't say I didn't enjoy the idea or even when the matches are evenly competetive but I do NOT enjoy it when I am with a group that has mostly new ships. So you can say join a channel or you have fun or that I am somehow "doing it wrong". Your statement does nothing to discuss the issue only that you don't have a problem with it. That is nice for you but not so much for those who can't grind out a ship fast enough.

Edited by Akabelleth
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Btw, I'll actually address some of your points.

 

only to find myself against a republic group with fully equipped ships

 

Here's Drako on some stock ships, and some others:

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=755330

 

If you are up against a bunch of premades, no, you won't win that game. But that's a minority of matches. How do I know this? I've played a bunch of matches.

 

Its as though the developers want to punish you for daring to play Galactic Star Fighter matches.

 

While I did name my ion railgun "The Developer", I think you are confused about what is punishing you in GSF matches. Hint: It's your pvp opponents.

 

I enjoy pvp but not when its clear that no matter how hard I play or try to work with my team, I lose the match in a brutal fashion.

 

So, what you are saying is, you didn't play hard enough, or they played harder. It's not pve: your effort and coordination doesn't need to be "at least this high" to win. It needs to be MORE than your opponent. And since they want to win, they will also do those things.

 

This is the same problem in Unranked Warzones for PvP

 

Hint: if the game isn't ranked, it won't really be able to make fair matches with great reliability. In the ground pvp, the clue is in the name.

 

This is a flaw that must be corrected if you wish this game to stand the test of time.

 

The profusion of games and game modes that can, at times, be uneven, proves otherwise. WoW battlegrounds, many other games, etc.

 

I don't mind paying my dues

 

Many players here have reqqed from 0 to full on multiple servers, so I'm guessing you exactly do mind that. Especially when you complain about reqqed ships existing. Like, anywhere.

 

but I do want an equal shot at winning

 

You'll just have to play enough to be better than your opponents then.

 

Either make it easier to grind out requisition points

 

They did this already. It's vastly easier to req than before. Plus, again, if you aren't pulling numbers like in the above thread in your STOCK ship (and you know your ship isn't stock), then the req isn't what's holding you back.

 

How can I say this? Because, like many here, I've played stock and low req ships a ton of times, and the same with mastered ships. That. Is. Not. YOUR. Issue.

 

It really isn't that hard and would make an awesome part of the game actually enjoyable.

 

It doesn't matter what they do (and they won't do anything). Someone will still come in with the same complaint.

 

 

Look, lemme lay this out for you:

 

1)- It's a 3-space game inside an MMO. That limits the players a lot.

2)- We don't have active devs right now.

3)- They already did what you said.

4)- Req in this game means vastly less than gear does anywhere else.

5)- You are new to a pvp game, losing in pvp. That's to be expected.

6)- The players who will tell you it's not primarily about req have played reqqed ships and played naked ships and everything in between, multiple times. You should probably heed that advice!

7)- I'm not a fan of the low req ships, so I go and get req. I recommend you do the same.

Edited by Verain
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Also: premade groups are what keeps GSF going, because the game is all about team work, and that's the part that keeps everyone coming back. Fully equipped ships are a lot more balanced that the earlier ones, and again, aren't your issue.

 

The problem with GSF is that we don't have any new content, and that it has a poor tutorial and no way to play without having to jump straight into the meat grinder. Those are apparently design issues, and we don't have a good way around those. I get that the new player experience is frustrating- as Nem says, the game could use more approachability- but as community, there's tutorials and guides to help.

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Not that my opinion should mean much to the GSF community, since I have probably less than 200 games played across all my characters, but I'm going to weigh in anyway. First, I don't think pre-mades or fully equipped ships are harming GSF. There is nothing wrong with pre-mades on their own. It's an MMO, you need a way to be able to play with your friends, that's all pre-mades really are. Mastered ships are not the problem either. Like others have said in many threads, the mastered ship is not the major difference, it's the experience gained by mastering the ship. You could put a brand new pilot in a mastered ship against an ace in a stock ship and the ace will win every time due to their experience.

 

That said, I know where the OP is coming from, it is frustrating to finally get a queue pop and then see you have no shot because the opposing team is full of the best pilots on the server and your team has a bunch of two and three shippers. If this happens once in awhile it's annoying, but I can deal with this if it's not the norm. Unfortunately some nights that match repeats itself in the second match. When that happens I'm usually done for the night.

 

But this is not the other team's fault, they're just trying to play the game. It's not even really the developers fault, they can't make the right number of evenly skilled pilots queue at the same time, there's just not enough of those at certain times. Cross-server queues might help, but that's likely something that would require a major redesign that isn't going to happen. Without a major influx of players at all skill levels at all times of the day you aren't likely to see this problem eliminated.

 

Do you enjoy those even matches (or even the ones slightly unbalanced against you)? I know I do. The occasional blowout by a vastly superior opponent is a price I'm willing to pay for the fun I get in the good matches (and the hope that someday I won't just be cannon fodder in the other matches).

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I would like to thank you all for sharing but my opinion hasn't changed. I play daily GSF matches and when there is parity in the groups its a fun and worthwhile challenge. I don't hate a premade per se but what I do dislike intensely isn't that it about skill(s or tactics but about grabbing as many "aces" as you can pack on your team with maxed out ships.

 

I love it when its "well your obviously not good enough" or "its part of paying your dues in pvp". I am not so foolish as do demand complete parity but I play mostly on the imperial side of the coin. I seem to keep getting groups with new to GSF and thus unprepared players. I play hard with and for my team no matter who the opponent is or how may "aces" they have. But I have spoken to several player(s) who want to enjoy it but when they try to find a comparable level of challenge to their limited time to play thus grind out ship(s) and components.

 

It seems they like me draw a very skilled and extremely well equipped republic group as opponents. While loosing, sometimes badly so, is part of the learning curve. The domination of a group who shows up in match after match is disheartening. And the Developers should pay attention to the enjoyment of the game regardless of skill level of the player(s) involved. GSF and PvP for that matter shouldn't seem like a constant string of beatings just for the hope that you will be able to return the same to someone else down the road.

 

I enjoy those matches where its close in terms of relative skill(s), equipment, and team chemistry. Those matches get my blood racing and I enjoy it immensely win or loose. But on the evenings when I get the same opponets 5 or 6 matches in a row, with the ace crew and maxed out ships it discourages me to want to play GSF at all. I don't want to be denied or have others feel discouraged in trying to have fun. I am just hoping that a few will read this and take heart that their frustration is noted and heard.

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new player 10 lvl will play with 100% achiv in 1 battle.

too few ppl play now so it be. may be bw need do bolster for it.

 

and i not see premade group long ago - to many ppl stop playing.

Edited by Snean
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Bolster doesn't work for GSF, because the problem in GSF stems far less from having under-equipped ships than it does from people:

1. Being unable to hit anything with their weapons

2. Not knowing what to do to secure an objective

3. Not recognizing threats on the board

4. Not anticipating the enemy's movement.

 

Verain is right in that GSF is a team game, but teamwork doesn't always have to be coordinated over voice or through premades. It certainly helps with tactical awareness to do it that way, but if you play enough, you get a feel for how the matches develop, where threats come from, and what to do to remove them.

 

It is frustrating to solo-queue into matches against an experienced premade even from my perspective as someone who is experienced and has all the ships I need to compete. Nobody learns anything from getting 3-cap stomped, other than 'I am not good enough' or 'my team is not good enough'. It's even worse when it is apparent the other side's premade is in for the long haul, and your side has nobody on who is capable of playing competitively.

 

I solo queue a lot because I don't often have time these days to play many matches, or time to search out a team if good players are even available. I like to drop in for a couple matches when I can, but it's a roll of the dice. Sometimes the situation is favorable, sometimes I'm stuck with one quality teammate and a handful of people who fly (and shoot) like leaves blowing in the wind. Through good luck or bad, my time is either rewarded with fun or completely wasted in frustration.

 

The issue really boils down to one thing: not a large enough pool of people playing to consistently allow for competitive matchups. This is largely unsolvable in any meaningful way without official support from Bioware. We make our efforts here on the forum, Drakolich puts out many videos, etc but it ultimately is small potatoes compared to what we would need to really embiggen the player pool in order for consistent, even matches.

 

The secondary issue is player experience. No matter how well you play, if your team is full of people who have accuracy ratings in the single digits and don't know why those big A B and C are on their map, you are going to lose to any competent team.

 

As frustrated as I get being dropped into bad matches that are clearly hopeless from before the match starts, it is kind of dumb to wish for skilled players to stop being good. Most of the time, I try to call off 3-cap stomps when I'm on the strong side of them, but often it's like telling a pack of hungry dogs that the pile of steaks on the ground isn't for them, and they should just respectfully decline to eat them.

 

My recommended solutions for those who care enough to persist through bad matchmaking:

1. Take your performance seriously and avail yourself of the resources here (video learning, tutoring, critique of your flying) and spread the word that these resources exist.

 

2. Find some people you like flying with, even if it's not a voice group, you can help yourself by teaming up with quality pilots. Get to know the people who frequently top the leaderboard.

 

3. Remind Bioware that GSF is the reason (or part of the reason) you play their game, and it needs attention. Don't do it here on this forum, they barely ever come here. Find some other means. Even if it seems like shouting at the wind, it can't hurt to let them know.

 

- Despon

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I would like to thank you all for sharing but my opinion hasn't changed.

 

 

We are not "sharing". We are "telling".

 

Your thread title is phrased like a fact. It is not a fact: it is incorrect.

 

Don't try to pretend that we are all trying to "change your opinion". You came here to debate by stating things as facts that are not facts. And definitely don't try to change frame on us with weasel words.

 

 

I love it when its "well your obviously not good enough" or "its part of paying your dues in pvp".

 

I love it when 2+2 is "4", but that's because it's also true.

 

It seems they like me draw a very skilled and extremely well equipped republic group as opponents.

 

So, each server is different, and each playtime is different. If you are flying against the same premade multiple times, you are probably queueing when they queue. As you might imagine, getting a premade together requires some effort, so normally there's a time of day, or time of week, or something, where these guys will meet up. What you should be doing is finding a group of empire to queue against them and beat them- but the very LEAST you could do, if that's not in the cards, is just queue when they aren't stomping your face in. Not that I suggest that: but it would certainly be more productive for you, I guess.

 

 

Ultimately, your complaints are very narrow. YOU are discouraged because on one server, when playing one faction, at a specific time, without teammates, YOU have a rough game. But you phrase this like it's a game wide problem. You project your logistical issues onto the entire playerbase. That's simply bad logic. I told you right away, in my first post, what your solution is- play with a damned team. It is a team game, you are part of a squad. If your opponents are coordinated and you are not, you will lose.

 

You weaken the argument further by implying that you even know what good coordination and play looks like. You might! You might actually have a pretty good idea, brought over from a presumed reasonably expansive history of pvp in other places, with good skill. But that's not really been my experience when people complain.

Here's what I see out of an uncoordinated team:

Ships that don't acquire scouts chasing down their allied gunships. Ships that don't support nodes. Allowing enemy gunships to remain roosted indefinitely. Allowing enemy deployables to stick around. Ignoring enemy hyperspace beacons. Staying in a turn-fight instead of swapping to peel. Valuing killcount++ over your teammates. Ship choice made entirely unrelated to other ships on the map.

So when you claim to work with your team, how can you be sure that these things aren't plaguing you? If you don't do them, how can you know that your team isn't?

 

 

If you want to win more, play with a team. If that's too hard, don't queue against whatever group of guys you are actually complaining about. I love that this started as "facts about the design flaws of GSF" and ended up as "...so there's this pub guild that bothers me".

 

----

 

embiggen the player pool

 

Yessssssss

 

That said, I know where the OP is coming from, it is frustrating to finally get a queue pop and then see you have no shot because the opposing team is full of the best pilots on the server and your team has a bunch of two and three shippers.

 

It's easy to be frustrated in these situations- I am normally frustrated in them as well. I often can make the best of it by trying to make them work for it, but I'm certainly not saying these games are fun for all involved or whatever. I am saying that they are not really representative of all games- and that you can absolutely choose your fate to a reasonable degree by queuing with other pilots that will coordinate.

 

Cross-server queues might help

 

Like you say, it isn't happening- but it's absolutely insane that it is not. GSF needs cross server more than the ground game does, but that won't drive the development. It'll probably get dragged along if and when the ground game gets cross server PvP, but it should have shipped with this, period. Like, SWTOR should have never left beta without cross server pvp. Other games have spawned and died, with cross server in this time. WoW has expanded there cross server from "pvp instances" to "pve instances" to "each zone dynamically in the world". The last two have their opponents, but the first is trivially needed.

 

So you can sort of blame the designers here- someone decided that this vital feature could be left on the floor, to very bad consequences. But that was certainly not a GSF issue, it's SWTOR-wide.

Edited by Verain
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I'd just also like to chime in here and say that some of the most rewarding matches I've ever had were against teams/pilots I had no business winning against for whatever reason (Sometimes it's because it boils down to 3v1 effective, or 5v2 or whatever), but somehow, my team scrapes out a win. And it truly brings a smile to my face when my team gets all excited about the close win.

 

I actually was in a match the other day, and one of the people on my side, who by ships, had some experience at least, looked at the opposing team for our deathmatch, and was like, "Oh, x and y are on their team... GG" before the match even started. I laughed, and just said, "which way do you mean? ;)". We were up like 25-12, and I saw him pipe back up with the whole, "So I might have been premature with the 'gg' comment..." or something to that effect.

 

But the flip side is also true. Times I see 3/4/5 people in opposition that I consider aces, or at least strong vets, and my side is me and people with just the starter ships, and it's going to be all I can do to get a few kills, and not die repeatedly to focus. Honestly, the most frustrating games to me are the ones where I go something like 6-3-8-50k, because I'm doing damage well enough, but the focus on me kills me before I can usually seal the deal. There's no one to take the heat off, and it gets really, really frustrating in a hurry.

 

The frustrating games happen, even to us vets and aces. Even in the games where I'm hopelessly outclassed, I never quit, and I hope that by being there, and giving the opposition a competent pilot to shoot at (and who might actually swing a few battles here and there, even if not the match), I'm giving the people on my team some time to fly and learn without just exploding. It's still frustrating, but in hoping that being there helps others from getting completely farmed, I get a little bit of... solace, I guess.

 

I'll also note that a lot of the vets and aces, especially those who solo queue a lot, tend to swap factions a good deal on the attempt to even out matches to some degree. If I run into a bunch of vet friends in a match on my team, and there's no opposition, a couple of us will swap to try to help balance things out, because believe me... It's no fun being on the giving end of a slaughter either. I've had matches where I honestly did not have the heart to deal that killing blow because it's already 29-1 in a TDM, and I'm just not ruthless in that situation. I have the guy dead to rights 5 times over, but... I just can't, so I let him go. I like to think that maybe he gets a little confidence from being able to fly a bit longer before someone else who doesn't have my scruples comes along.

 

Anyway, Verain's blunt, but I think with this he's largely right. One of the best things you might be able to do against that team you're referring to would be to hop in the /cjoin GSF channel, and try to put a team together to fight them.

 

Out of curiosity, which server do you fly on?

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But on the evenings when I get the same opponets 5 or 6 matches in a row

 

Welcome to GSF!

 

If you can play that much, it is probably worthwhile to fly another character in the other faction or another server. The Ebon Hawk is relatively balanced. The Red Eclipse is dominated by the Republic.

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He may want to play on his main for some reason. For GSF play, your advice is totally correct, but I don't normally give that as advice because a lot of MMO players wouldn't want to not play on their main, etc.
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I see these as a way to test my evasive flying skills. I was recently in one where I had a basically stock scout and there were about 5 or 6 good pilots on the other side. I knew we had no chance but I only died twice with 3 of them on me most of the match. Booster recharge being stock on the nova is a life saver. We still lost by a large margin but if your team has a few good pilots you can also stay out to the edges of the main dogfighting and just go after anyone that strays to far off. I think it's kuat mess I just stay low and outside the rocks to and pick my battles ready to run for cover if I'm in a new ship, for example. If I have evasion built up I will be in the middle of the fight tho.
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GSF has one major issue and it's neither Premades not mastered ships. The simple fact is that SWTOR is not a flight sim. Its main focus has been and always will be the ground game. Adding GSF to SWTOR is like adding a flight simulator to Simcity, a first-person-shooter-mode to Civilization, or trade economics to Mass Effect.

 

Sure, some people enjoy both aspects of the game (I'm one of them), but the majority doesn't. Some people may give it a try from time to time and get discouraged, because the learning curve is steep and only few people will endure getting stomped on repeatedly until they get better. Some blame their lack of skill/experience on premades or gear gaps. But those things wouldn't be issues if we had enough players for the matchmaking to work properly.

 

Do I have a solution? No. As caedron wrote, trying to tell your team to hold back a little, so the new players get a chance to learn something, doesn't work. Telling people to watch tutorials and read all the great information out there doesn't work either.

 

I don't even think there's anything Bioware could do to make GSF more popular. Even if it was more integrated into the base game, most people would still not be interested in it. I may be wrong, but I think the reason why X-Wing Alliance was the last of its kind is simply this: not enough potential customers.

 

I'm usually not a fan of cross-server, but I agree that GSF queue times and matchmaking would benefit from it significantly. Unfortunately cross-server is even less likely than a new ship type or map.

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I may be wrong, but I think the reason why X-Wing Alliance was the last of its kind is simply this: not enough potential customers.

Well, between Elite Dangerous, Star Citizen, the Starfighter-Inc, and a few other things coming out in the next year or two, this will probably be put to the test.

 

I do think BW could do some things to get people more into GSF (a proper tutorial and some kind of 1v1 or 2v2 challenge mode would go a long way), but I largely agree with you that they won't, which is unfortunate.

Edited by nyghtrunner
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I am totaly agree with this, need MAKE some MMR. New players continue left GSF. There already in work days hard find grp and when new player comes to GSF and MMR put it against full upgraded team where he dies as respawns near his base, he will never come back and play it again. BW need really start think about these small things, SWTOR comunity already is small i don't whant that new players leave game because there is no end game contest as they keep hard loosing in GSF and Warzones because all time is Nightmare MMR against premades.
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i sincerely doubt that there was 5-6 good pilots on the other team because there are very rarely 5-6 good pilots on a server at one time.

 

in any case i love seeing threads like this because Verain gets to show his true potential.

 

As for the OP. Straight up, you're wrong, they're really the only thing keeping people playing the game. You're opinion is in many ways invalid. I award you no points, and everybody here is dumber having read this post. May god have mercy on your soul.

 

 

If you're wondering why you're so incredibly wrong, I'll educate you on multiplayer game design.

 

In order to play a multiplayer game you first need multiple players (Shocking!). In order to attract gamers you need a cool concept (check), in order to keep gamers playing you need to give them things to work towards (check) whether it be having advanced skill or an image of what is "good". If you don't like the game usually the message is "take a hike" there are games that will better suit your palette, of course if too many people don't like this game that creates problems, however there are plenty of people who only play SWTOR for GSF and that number of people hasn't been decreasing too much over the past year, we've lost a few here and there and we've gained an equal if not greater amount of people.

 

 

As far as ground pvp goes, "pre-made" pvp matches and full gear hardly makes a difference. I can't tell you how many times I've been in 0 pvp gear on my marauder (which is a hard class to play right now) and absolutely dominated people in ranked gear, because bolster is actually really good. As for the difference in objective gaming in ground pvp, the biggest difference lies in the time it takes to get between nodes. In space one good pilot can oftentimes cap all three nodes and defend them in time before they get capped all by himself.

 

In space you don't need bolster because even if you have everything all maxed, if you have sub-30% accuracy on average, you're never going to get anywhere, and that's a generous number, I honestly don't think you're even close to good until you can average 50% accuracy while being pressured.

Edited by tommmsunb
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Eh, I disagree with you there. The more important thing is that you're landing lots of shots. Missing a pile of shots isn't a big deal. My accuracy is terrible but I take a lot of high deflection shots when I have a full energy bar and chasing someone. Sometimes they land and it's bonus damage. Most of the time they miss, but who cares? Edited by RickDagles
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Eh, I disagree with you there. The more important thing is that you're landing lots of shots. Missing a pile of shots isn't a big deal. My accuracy is terrible but I take a lot of high deflection shots when I have a full energy bar and chasing someone. Sometimes they land and it's bonus damage. Most of the time they miss, but who cares?

 

Those high deflection shots are what make the difference between what I call a good pilot and an average pilot. It's really easy to get high numbers/kill pressured targets when you have no pressure yourself., when good pilots meet it's usually the deflection shots that decide the conflict.

Edited by tommmsunb
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I fly on Harbinger and have gotten to know most of the ace pilots there. If I see a new name that just dominates in a match, I go out of my way to introduce myself to them. On the other side of the coin, I also go out of my way to assist the "noobs" (that appear to want to learn) to learn how to fly. If I am unable to help them, I will point them in the direction of the gsf channel or a specific person to talk to in game.

One of you mentioned there's not usually more than 5-6 ace pilots on at any one time. On Harbinger, that is false. I could log on at almost any time of day or night and find at least four (to make a group) on either faction.

Wed evenings, my guild (Gone Sithing), puts on what we call Imp side gsf night. We do the same Thur evening on the Pub side. The popularity of gsf there is outstanding, in my opinion. To those I know that only fly one faction, I tell them, "we are flying tonight. Rally the troops and fly against us."

On those evenings where we have our respective "fly nights", I can regularly gather more than eight fliers to queue in together and that's only in one faction. Sometimes there are wargames/livefires, those happen, but quite often we are facing off on the troops that friends have rallied on the other side to fly against us.

Now I don't consider myself an ace, there are many people out there so much better than I am. However, I like to consider myself good. I know the names of the people to watch out for and when I see a pack of noobs on my team, I tell them, "watch out for X or keep X busy". When I fly against a pack of noobs, I also try to refrain from kicking their teeth in so badly they don't want to fly again. Let them hold a sat, don't make the killing blow in a blowout match or I will also make a "stupid mistake" and let them kill me or run my face into a rock to avoid getting killed. Getting my team to agree though is like herding cats sometimes.

All of this having been said, I don't think premades are harming gsf. They help to keep the queues alive and going.

 

Sixofone/Lucklessa

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One of you mentioned there's not usually more than 5-6 ace pilots on at any one time. On Harbinger, that is false. I could log on at almost any time of day or night and find at least four (to make a group) on either faction.

 

That really really depends on your definition of an ace pilot. As far as I'm concerned the only ace I've met on Harbinger was Willie. Mind you that was a long while ago and things could have changed dramatically, but the rest of the people I've met got crushed under pressure whereas Willie didn't.

 

I think a few weeks ago I put it as "You're good if you can go against an 8 man pre-made virtually solo and still do well for yourself. (Not necessarily winning the game, not having a high kdr, just having a game presence.) Which you'd be surprised how few people actually do because they are too concerned about how many times they die to actually have a game presence, or they don't cap any nodes because they're scared of mines, again not having a game presence, and they forget who the important targets are because they see some name that's a big deal to them and think that if they kill that guy the whole enemy team will crumble (spoilers it doesn't).

 

 

 

This difference in perspective primarily has to do with the number of pilots who don't know even the most basic things. A lot of the pilots who you might say are good are pilots who have the knowledge to make themselves better than the people who don't know things. (Which is a lot of the population.) but they don't have the experience or skills a lot of the time that in any other game would make the difference between good and average or great and average. It's just the sheer quantity of absolutely positively horrible pilots that will trick you into thinking "Yup, that guys good. His numbers are high." when really he just knows enough to farm, he doesn't have the tools in his mental arsenal to go up against an actually good pilot.

 

If you want really really want a numbers example I figure if you're a scout/gunship and you can get over 200 DPS in a fringe match you're probably good because that means that the combination of your skill, your knowledge helped you to really take advantage of the fringe case. But if you have a similar fringe case and you're not THAT skilled but your knowledgeable, you could probably easily get 150 DPS+ in said fringe case.

 

In a strike fighter it's not about your dps but about how fast you can clear a node because ion/heavy is the fastest way to clear bombers and turrets in the game as far as I'm concerned, your time in between nodes is really slow and your time to bear is slow so you really can't use the same numbers that scouts/gunships do.

 

 

As far as bombers go, across the 8 servers I've been to the only good one I have EVER seen is Drakkolich.

 

People have previously said that there are tiers of aces and I think that that is partially true, the issue with it is that there's no real way at this moment to quantify, or give yourself points and say "this is what tier I'm in", especially considering the difference in styles of flights between players.

Edited by tommmsunb
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That really really depends on your definition of an ace pilot. As far as I'm concerned the only ace I've met on Harbinger was Willie. Mind you that was a long while ago and things could have changed dramatically, but the rest of the people I've met got crushed under pressure.

 

I think a few weeks ago I put it as "You're good if you can go against an 8 man pre-made virtually solo and still do well for yourself. (Not necessarily winning the game, not having a high kdr, just having a game presence.) Which you'd be surprised how few people actually do because they are too concerned about how many times they die to actually have a game presence, or they don't cap any nodes because they're scared of mines, again not having a game presence, and they forget who the important targets are because they see some name that's a big deal to them and think that if they kill that guy the whole enemy team will crumble (spoilers it doesn't).

 

Willie's pretty good. Part of what makes him so dangerous is people don't notice Myxon out at 15km when they get into a dogfight with him: if anyone doesn't instantly die when he shows up (they often do, because they aren't aware of him until it's too late), they get ion railed, and Harfang just swaps around whatever ship and is dangerous enough with it. I have seen a match where Willie solo queued and couldn't do anything, though: we had a double premade and nobody on his team took enough enough pressure off him: he was constantly on the run, and very very rarely could take a shot. The only thing his mastered battlescout could do for most of the match was run and pop DCDs because of the sheer number of other battlescouts which didn't give him a shot.

 

Most of the premades I've seen on Harbinger can beat any one or two aces through massive gunship spam, and that's usually what happens if a fight starts to go bad. That's part of the reason so many of us on Harbinger can't dogfight: without the overlapping fields of fire of 1600-damage-without-warning slug rail, too many of us are totally helpless, and we don't usually coordinate gunship rushes so everyone always attacks the GS wall one or two at a time-which is a fail strategy no matter what ship you're in unless the gunships have no situational awareness and don't evade at all.

 

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Back on topic, the whole point of a multiplayer game is to play with friends, and people will. Premade doesn't automatically mean the other team will win, it just means they're grouped up. The problem happens when the matchmaker can't seem to help throwing people with thousands of games played against people who don't even know the range limit on rapids, how to lock a missile, or that they even have a missile break (or cooldowns!) against people with thousands of games played-over and over and over again.

Edited by ALaggyGrunt
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so everyone always attacks the GS wall one or two at a time-which is a fail strategy no matter what ship you're in unless the gunships have no situational awareness and don't evade at all.

 

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I hate to say it but this perspective is the difference between a good pilot and a great pilot which is really an average pilot vs a good pilot. Even the best gunship pilot in the game can be caught off guard. It's all about being able to see the opportunity. With full energy and damage cooldowns in quads/pods I can pretty easily take a gunship out before he notices I'm there. The trick to it is making sure he doesn't know I'm there using sleight of hand tricks.

 

Also, i have to tell you that this isn't off-topic. The OP is just ignorant to the real problem at hand.

Edited by tommmsunb
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