Please upgrade your browser for the best possible experience.

Chrome Firefox Internet Explorer
×

Nobody wants to play with sorc/sage dpsers

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes > Sage / Sorcerer
Nobody wants to play with sorc/sage dpsers

Gyronamics's Avatar


Gyronamics
04.16.2018 , 06:48 PM | #11
Quote: Originally Posted by ottffsse View Post
On TfB Nim Terror what's the difference between say a Lightning Sorc, a Gunnery Mando/Arsenal and a Marksman sniper
It's 4 lightning sorcs here because this is the sorc subforum.

You could mix it up and have any combo of those three for the same result.
Hotwired

Niman, Tomb of Freedon Nadd, The Red Eclipse, Darth Malgus

2011 - The Immortals, The Lumberjacks, Nano, Not Good Enough, Disciples of Babylon, Salt Miners - 2018

DarthCognusSion's Avatar


DarthCognusSion
04.16.2018 , 11:05 PM | #12
Quote: Originally Posted by Gyronamics View Post
Maras and PT's can do that and none of them have an armour debuff.

The armour debuff isn't the issue.

It's about how many sorcs you can carry through the content, that's why you don't want 4 lightning sorcs in TFB NiM.

There's no fight to be had. Just be honest about it. It's all about DPS in the tightest fights and the developers do not allow all classes to be equally competitive.
First off, carnage and AP have an armor debuff so you are hilariously wrong there. Try and get your facts correct before you try to argue a point. Second, who brings 4 of the same class to a raid? Any class. Nobody does it. You are coming up with a ridiculous argument to support your statement that sorcs can only be carried through content and canít pull their own weight.

You might be right on one fight out of every one in the game, but itís certainly not the case in TFB. Brontes might be your best bet for that argument. Keyword there being might.

Iím also curious if youíve actually tried to play sorc dps in NiM or if this is all just conjecture on your part. I mean everyone says sorc is trash so it must be true right? So itís either youíve never played sorc dps in NiM and so have no idea of what the class is capable or you have tried but couldnít execute the class well enough to clear a fight or pull your own weight so you think the fault lies in the class. Either way itís apparent to me that you are basing your argument on either a lack of information or just bad information.

Gyronamics's Avatar


Gyronamics
04.17.2018 , 12:16 AM | #13
Quote: Originally Posted by DarthCognusSion View Post
^
Yeah I missed the armour debuff, I wasn't thinking of those specs. Point was and still is, the armour debuff isn't the reason.

Quote: Originally Posted by DarthCognusSion View Post
who brings 4 of the same class to a raid?
This bit seems to have gone over your head despite me confirming its not about the class stacking directly above you. Before you even posted that question.

It's about not bringing enough group dps when dps matters.

That's why when you declared sorc dps valid for every NiM and HM fight in the game I gave you a specific example which I knew was going to be a problem.

Remember the first thing I did was say it is possible, with a condition

Quote: Originally Posted by Gyronamics View Post
It's possible to go through most content in game as a weak dps spec... as long as important slack is made up by the other dps.
You think I was abusing sorcs. I was talking about going through every NiM and HM with an arsenal merc after damage nerfs. That doesn't work so well if everyone plays bottom end dps.
Hotwired

Niman, Tomb of Freedon Nadd, The Red Eclipse, Darth Malgus

2011 - The Immortals, The Lumberjacks, Nano, Not Good Enough, Disciples of Babylon, Salt Miners - 2018

DarthCognusSion's Avatar


DarthCognusSion
04.17.2018 , 11:16 AM | #14
Quote: Originally Posted by Gyronamics View Post
Yeah I missed the armour debuff, I wasn't thinking of those specs. Point was and still is, the armour debuff isn't the reason.



This bit seems to have gone over your head despite me confirming its not about the class stacking directly above you. Before you even posted that question.

It's about not bringing enough group dps when dps matters.

That's why when you declared sorc dps valid for every NiM and HM fight in the game I gave you a specific example which I knew was going to be a problem.

Remember the first thing I did was say it is possible, with a condition



You think I was abusing sorcs. I was talking about going through every NiM and HM with an arsenal merc after damage nerfs. That doesn't work so well if everyone plays bottom end dps.
This straw man argument really needs to stop. I never argued for bringing 4 of any class. I said that sorc dps (which includes both lightning and madness since you seem to just be arguing about lightning) is viable for every HM/NiM fight. Viable means possible in that a well played sorc can contribute the requisite dps to meet the dps check without having to have their lack of damage made up for by another class. That means that the damage a sorc dps spec brings is sufficient. It does not mean that it is sufficient if and only if another class is carrying them. And 20% armor reduction matters quite a bit, especially to sorc since a lot of their damage (especially in lightning) is kinetic and therefore benefits greatly from an armor debuff.

You also have yet to answer my question as to where you are getting your information regarding the dps a sorc can put out. What is your experience with the class? That matters a lot because if you have no personal experience playing the class in a NiM setting then your opinion is practically worthless since you have no basis for your arguments. If memory serves correctly you mainly play merc. Please correct me if I am wrong in this regard.

Gyronamics's Avatar


Gyronamics
04.17.2018 , 01:39 PM | #15
I gave you the scenario to challenge your very clear claim.

Quote: Originally Posted by DarthCognusSion View Post
Both Sorc/Sage dps specs are viable in every NiM/MM fight and GFTM HM/VM.
Both specs.

You call it a strawman for me to challenge that with a scenario of 4 of one spec doing a dps check. A false strawman claim is itself strawman

Also obvious that you're ignoring both posts which say it would be exactly the same with any selection of arsenal, lighting or marksman and that sorc lightning was only specified due to the subforum. This means you can indeed have an armour debuff.

Just as long as the selection is all low dps specs. Into a dps check.

They are exactly as viable in any of the tightest dps checks exactly in the conditions I originally said.
Hotwired

Niman, Tomb of Freedon Nadd, The Red Eclipse, Darth Malgus

2011 - The Immortals, The Lumberjacks, Nano, Not Good Enough, Disciples of Babylon, Salt Miners - 2018

shyroman's Avatar


shyroman
04.17.2018 , 02:16 PM | #16
Marksman is plenty viable for every dps check as long as whoever is playing it is good enough. Lightning does about the same sustained damage as marksman, so as long as lightning has an armor debuff applied to the target, it can also do the necessary dps.
Ryann - Sniper | Ryannack - Sorcerer | Apophas - Marauder
Jesicca - Mercenary | Lindseey - Gunslinger
Origin - Honey Badgers
Jedi Covenant

DarthCognusSion's Avatar


DarthCognusSion
04.17.2018 , 03:56 PM | #17
Quote: Originally Posted by Gyronamics View Post
I gave you the scenario to challenge your very clear claim.



Both specs.

You call it a strawman for me to challenge that with a scenario of 4 of one spec doing a dps check. A false strawman claim is itself strawman

Also obvious that you're ignoring both posts which say it would be exactly the same with any selection of arsenal, lighting or marksman and that sorc lightning was only specified due to the subforum. This means you can indeed have an armour debuff.

Just as long as the selection is all low dps specs. Into a dps check.

They are exactly as viable in any of the tightest dps checks exactly in the conditions I originally said.
A straw man is a common form of argument and is an informal fallacy based on giving the impression of refuting an opponent's argument, while actually refuting an argument that was not presented by that opponent.

What I said:
Quote: Originally Posted by DarthCognusSion View Post
Can you please stop complaining about issues that don't exist? Both Sorc/Sage dps specs are viable in every NiM/MM fight and GFTM HM/VM. All of these fights have been clear by multiple people. Stop spreading false information. Either learn to play the specs correctly or go play another class but the issue is with you, not with the class.
What you subsequently responded with:
Quote: Originally Posted by Gyronamics View Post
A bold claim.

It's possible to go through most content in game as a weak dps spec... as long as important slack is made up by the other dps.

So if I suggest the scenario of four lightning sorcs as the dps for 8m NiM TFB, you reckon that's viable?

An alternative to the word "viable" is "enjoyable".
I state that Sorc dps is viable for all HM/NiM content because multiple people have proven it to be by clearing the content as a sorc dps. You then reply talking about doing NiM as 4 sorcs. Explain to me how that is not a strawman argument. Your point is based on 4 lightning sorcs (or aresenal mercs, or mm snipers, or whatever combo) doing NiM content when i simply said that any sorc dps spec is viable, ie capable of doing the content.

Since you still also refuse to answer me about your sorc experience, I am just going to assume you have no experience playing the class until you say otherwise.

Gyronamics's Avatar


Gyronamics
04.17.2018 , 05:47 PM | #18
Quote: Originally Posted by DarthCognusSion View Post
A straw man is a common form of argument and is an informal fallacy based on giving the impression of refuting an opponent's argument, while actually refuting an argument that was not presented by that opponent.

I state that Sorc dps is viable for all HM/NiM content because multiple people have proven it to be by clearing the content as a sorc dps. You then reply talking about doing NiM as 4 sorcs. Explain to me how that is not a strawman argument. Your point is based on 4 lightning sorcs (or aresenal mercs, or mm snipers, or whatever combo) doing NiM content when i simply said that any sorc dps spec is viable, ie capable of doing the content.
Very well then, I will spell out the legitimate question I put to you:

Your claims were:

1) Both sorc dps are valid for every fight in every mode.

2) Your proof is because sorcs have gone through the content

This is what my words were:

Quote: Originally Posted by Gyronamics View Post
It's possible to go through most content in game as a weak dps spec... as long as important slack is made up by the other dps.
I state that position as mine based on personal experience and then asked if you agreed or disagreed with it:

I put the question of 4 of the lowest damage spec as the only dps into a dps check and asked if you think that is realistic.

Quote: Originally Posted by Gyronamics View Post
So if I suggest the scenario of four lightning sorcs as the dps for 8m NiM TFB, you reckon that's viable?

An alternative to the word "viable" is "enjoyable".
The reason for lightning sorcs (or arsenal mercs, or mm snipers, or whatever combo) is because all three have low damage output. The lowest.

Do you think they can realistically pass the hardest dps checks if better dps specs are not in the group (as the example shows).

There's no fake argument and I haven't pretended you said anything different. I'm asking you to your face if your definition of valid means they do enough damage individually to pass the hardest dps checks. If not then It's as I said, they require better dps specs to be with them to pass that content.

If you are happy to call valid as simply being in a group that kills the boss then so be it.

Like I said I've cleared it all in the worst dps spec and I've already shared my view on that.
Hotwired

Niman, Tomb of Freedon Nadd, The Red Eclipse, Darth Malgus

2011 - The Immortals, The Lumberjacks, Nano, Not Good Enough, Disciples of Babylon, Salt Miners - 2018

shyroman's Avatar


shyroman
04.17.2018 , 07:27 PM | #19
Because you brought up the example of terror, each tentacle requires around 21.8k total dps in phase 1 to clear before it enrages. So lets say the tank is doing normal tank stuff and doing 3.5k (could be a lot higher depending on gear), and the healers are totally slacking and doing 0 dps. That means each dps needs to do 9150 dps to clear the check. I'm not sure if that total dps involves adds and such (though it shouldn't matter much because the swirly orb adds a ton of dps when used correctly). Every class puts out way more than than 9.2k when it's only 70 seconds long (enrage for tentacle) when there's an armor debuff on the target. And that's not even taking into account the extra time you can have by having the tank eat an enraged slam, allowing even more time and making the required dps even lower.
Ryann - Sniper | Ryannack - Sorcerer | Apophas - Marauder
Jesicca - Mercenary | Lindseey - Gunslinger
Origin - Honey Badgers
Jedi Covenant

THAT_EPIC_GUY's Avatar


THAT_EPIC_GUY
04.17.2018 , 07:44 PM | #20
Quote: Originally Posted by Gyronamics View Post

The reason for lightning sorcs (or arsenal mercs, or mm snipers, or whatever combo) is because all three have low damage output. The lowest.

Do you think they can realistically pass the hardest dps checks if better dps specs are not in the group (as the example shows).
So IDK if anyone's done it for sorcs but for whatever reason you've chosen to lump them into the same category as arsenal mercs and mm snipers. And I can say that I've been part of a group who purposely went and cleared every fight with 4 MM snipers.
So... if the argument is based on DPS output then there's nothing wrong with sorcs given that MM can do everything (even in an extreme case of 4 MM snipers.)

Like all these PvE meta discussions are a massive joke when anyone talks about non-viability. You're 2 full gear tiers above content tuning. You're a full augment tier above content tuning. Every class has been power crept in terms of DCDs to godly levels of survivability which ultimately leads to getting away with a high degree of mechanical neglect. Now if we were talking about clearing these fights in 236s like they should be then it would be a different discussion but no one does that...
Mac
<Failure><It's Lit>
Up to date Medicine Operative PvE guide.