LOOT: 8s = 16s

 

DIFFICULTY: 8s < 16s

 

In fact . . .

 

DIFFICULTY (including trash): Hardmode 8s < Regular 16s

however . . . LOOT: Hardmode 8s > regular 16s

 

So why in the world bother . . .

Edited January 30, 2012 by DefMike

for gearing up - not worth it true - for progress after you beat all the 8 ppl content heall yaeh

Don`t worry. There is almost nobody who bothers.

Exactly, why waste your time doing 16 when you can do 8 in half the time/frustration and get the same loot.

It's kinda the same in WoW. In Cata, when they made 10s and 25s drop the same ilevel gear, all but the most elite 25 man guilds moved to 10s. 25 raids have mostly died out. Getting more loot is often not worth the headache of organizing and getting 25 people to come on at the same time, much less work together.

 

Doesn't really bother me though, I've always preferred 10s. I feel in 10s you get to know everyone really well and generally have more fun. It's a smaller group so it's a closer group and I enjoy that social aspect. I feel in 25s every member was just a face in the crowd and that took out one of the elements I need to have fun. I need the raid to be blisteringly hard, but I also need to enjoy the company. I'll leave a raid that doesn't have both competency AND community.

 

Some people really dislike 25s (or in this sense 16s) being marginalized though, and I understand their complaints. 25s/16s ARE *usually* harder, and thus have a bit more prestige, but it's more to do with having to come up with 25/16 competent people over 10/8 competent people. My experience with 25s is more people get carried, and once you hit Heroic modes you can no longer do so and you stall.

Edited January 30, 2012 by Whatsalightsaver

You see some guilds are made up of a community of people who have been playing together quite long and just happen to be more than 8 people:P. So naturally we dont do 2x8mans (and generate in-guild competiton and other problems) but go 16man.

 

And having a bigger challenge and harder fights even for the same rewards isnt neccessarily bad. Some people enjoy challenges more than just free loot. And 16man raiding still is a small enough scale to get to know your raidmembers well enough. Not that its needed if uve been playing with most of them for almost a decade:P

 

In general i dont really have a problem with how 16man handles, compared to 8man its harder but not that much harder considering that 8man hard mode is merely what a "normal" raid in wow is like. But thats to be expected since all current raid content should be considered as entrance lvl raiding. And Bioware could hardly have made "Heroic"-Mode WoW-Raidexp. a requirement to beat the first raid content int SW:ToR. Dont forget there are alot of players who are new to mmo´s in this game, and not every WoW player did raid either.

And having a bigger challenge and harder fights even for the same rewards isnt neccessarily bad. Some people enjoy challenges more than just free loot. And 16man raiding still is a small enough scale to get to know your raidmembers well enough. Not that its needed if uve been playing with most of them for almost a decade:P

 

 

Oh absolutely. Gear is almost a non issue to me. Heroic modes, for me, were always about the achievement and the challenge. Gear was always the least important part of the equation to me. That's not to say it was totally pointless to me either though. There's not as much sense of progression if your dps/hps doesn't escalate, and it hits a wall until you get better gear. Getting that helm I needed was never as big of a thrill as downing a new boss though.

 

And I agree, 16 members if more manageable than 25. Still, the less people I have to carry, the more fun I'm having. My WoW guild wasn't able to down H Ragnaros in T12 and it frustrated me to no end. I was so pissed at my guildmates xD Even in 10 we were carrying far too many people and H Rag was one of those bosses where you couldn't carry anyone. The Lock was horrible and needed a brez almost every other pull, the Pally healer stood in so much fire I could barely believe it, and I was constantly beating the Arcane Mage...with the Legendary...in dps. /facepalm. We got Rag to 12% in Phase 4 (you know, after he goes back up to 50%), but couldn't quite pull it off before Dragon Soul. It's the worst feeling in the world to know *you're* capable of doing something but the people around you aren't, and there's nothing you can do about it.

 

TL/DR, the less failure I'm surrounded by, the better I'll stick to smaller raids unless I'm sure the other 8 people can handle themselves.

Edited January 30, 2012 by Whatsalightsaver

Well no bigger success than beating a tough boss with a bunch of scrubs?:>

Well no bigger success than beating a tough boss with a bunch of scrubs?:>

 

Lol I wish it was that simple Most bosses are tuned so you can carry 1, maybe 2 people. But H Rag..no...H Rag was mean.

I guess it just depends on your guild size.

 

Right now I think a 16m group is perfect for my guild. 25m would be too many to organize, but 8s just seem like not enough slots.

 

So looking like we will do multiple 8s each week.

 

What I DON'T want to happen is for our group to become fragmented into cliques. Where only certain people group w/ other certain people.

 

I can't believe at one time we used to do 40s in WoW . . .

because games are all about epic lootz?!?!?!?!

 

Don't you people get bored with that paradigm?

This is laughable. 16mans are much easier on the DPS requirements, and on the healers.

 

When yout tank gets mind trapped in p3, it's a wipe unless someone else can jump in and taunt Soa to the pylon in 8 man. 16 man? Laugh as your second tank picks him up no worries. 8 man Jarga/Sonok is horrendous on the healers, hope you geared up a second tank to taunt Jarga off during carbonizer probe! Oh wait, 16 man can easily afford to have three tanks on this fight, one for each boss and one to stand around picking his nose and still make the enrage timer, while 8 man can barely make it with one + one DPS in tank gear.

Edited January 30, 2012 by Blutelf

Completely agree with op.

Correct me if I am wrong, but from what I've seen 16man is actually 2 times less tier level loot then 8 man. The drops are exactly the same even though there are 2x more people raiding. Seriously?

I don't want to think this was intended and hope it's just one more thing gone wrong and scheduled for fixing. Please clarify on this.

I would like to hear something from Bioware on this too.

As it stands theres absolutely zero incentive to run 16 mans over 8 mans except for epeen status. The 8 mans are so much easier and have more loot.

 

I mean come on, we want to raid as 16 and progress, but we also want to be doing it to progress our characters not only to progress our status.

 

Give us some incentive to 16 man. The difficulty is much harder on 16 to 8, so do something like make 16 mans drop ONLY columi on normal, make 16 man drop ONLY rakata on hard/mare mode.

 

This will give guilds incentive to run as 16 instead of 8, after all this is a massive multiplayer where we are supposed to play and interact with each other, not be in seperate raids and seperate vent channels.

Not to mention that tank aggro management has issues when scalig from 8 man to 16 man. There is no value to doing 16 man right now, and if there was the aggro management can't really scale for it so it makes it more frustrating.

Hrm

 

We had no problem doing 16 man. Ample loot for everyone too. Was harder than 8, so I guess, if your in it for the loot vs time, do 8's. If you're in it for the challenge and progression, do 16's.

Hrm

 

We had no problem doing 16 man. Ample loot for everyone too. Was harder than 8, so I guess, if your in it for the loot vs time, do 8's. If you're in it for the challenge and progression, do 16's.

 

You've missed the point. It's not about how well YOU did in a 16s, it's about how easy 8 is compared to 16.

 

I totally agree w/ you about doing it for the challenge. We have beat first 2 bosses in EV on 16 and it felt good to win those fights. But we struggle w/ the trash between the 1st and 2nd boss (I'm sure we could do something better)

 

But when you have that option of getting the same reward for much less effort . . . man it's hard to resist!!!

Mockery: From my experience the only reason 16 man is harder than 8 man is because it is easier to find 8 people that are not bad than 16 people who are not bad.

 

Statement: Without dps meters or a combat log it isn't possible to measure the increase in numbers by switching 8 man to 16 man. Chances are you're carrying some people who are not preforming to specs.

I cant stand the smaller group content, I get sick of people whining about not getting into the group. 16 man is much easier to get people into.

 

WoW drove me nuts with that crap. Trying to stack a raid for the hardest 10 man content to make it easiest to down for progression and you have 5 people whining that they didn't get into the raid and some one else did.

Mockery: From my experience the only reason 16 man is harder than 8 man is because it is easier to find 8 people that are not bad than 16 people who are not bad.

 

Statement: Without dps meters or a combat log it isn't possible to measure the increase in numbers by switching 8 man to 16 man. Chances are you're carrying some people who are not preforming to specs.

 

When you find 16+ amazing players 16 mans are just as easy.

 

In wow when you took a 25 man raid guild and did 10 man content it was a joke because 10 mans were easy when you had the correct raid comp for the fight. The only time it became harder was when the fight had a square hole and you tried to force the round peg into it.

I cant stand the smaller group content, I get sick of people whining about not getting into the group. 16 man is much easier to get people into.

 

WoW drove me nuts with that crap. Trying to stack a raid for the hardest 10 man content to make it easiest to down for progression and you have 5 people whining that they didn't get into the raid and some one else did.

 

I can also get people new to raiding into it easier w/ a larger group. I guess it's because they feel they don't carry as much responsibility when they are 10% of the DPS versus 25%, or 25% of the heal team vs 50% . . . just a thought.

bump, 16m needs some incentive

well the more people you need to work together the harder the it is.....

 

but since Biow/EA dont want to scare kids and noobs away.... they are force to make 8mans so easy that every single player have a chance to down them......

 

i for one know why they aim for the major group when it comes to paying players.... i hate that this is got so many bugs, and easy content and so low player based Flashpoints and operations, i wish they would make at minium 24 players or 32 players operations and make it hard to complete....

 

 

but this game like Aion, WoW, Warhammer online, and any other game that are based on a kids lvl PvE with crap Arena PvP is a complete waste of time for players that want some IRL elements in the games they play, like consequences on behavior and comeplete stupidities, and failures from completing things like raids and so on.....

The Lock was horrible and needed a brez almost every other pull

As someone who played a warlock, let me apologize for this. You know, I haven't played WoW since before Cataclysm released, and hearing stuff like this still makes me mad. I also hated the people who affirmed the "DKs are played by idiots" stereotype. I loved both of those classes, and seeing people who failed so much play them, knowing that whatever they did reflected back on myself, was incredibly frustrating.

 

I was in a raid something like yours in WoW as well. We had so much turnover that, by the end, we were gearing up everyone constantly with the same content, and we never got to the progression part of the raid. By the time the raid fell apart, the only healers we had were druids (this made me loathe druid healing), and most of the DPS didn't care to better themselves.

 

It sucked badly.

You've missed the point. It's not about how well YOU did in a 16s, it's about how easy 8 is compared to 16.

 

I totally agree w/ you about doing it for the challenge. We have beat first 2 bosses in EV on 16 and it felt good to win those fights. But we struggle w/ the trash between the 1st and 2nd boss (I'm sure we could do something better)

But when you have that option of getting the same reward for much less effort . . . man it's hard to resist!!!

 

From my experience, the trash is tuned way up in 16m Regular. Don't know if it's intended or bugged but we found the trash harder than every boss fight with exception to the Pylon's and SoA.

 

Of course, the fight mechanic in the pylons IS the Trash, so overtuned Trash spawning super fast was a major major issue.

 

For the SoA fight though we just didn't have the DPS we needed to beat the enrage (we had Pugged 4 people).

 

But yes.. the Boss fights in 16m Normal felt appropriate in comparison to 8m Normal. The TRASH in 16m Regular was more difficult than 8m Hardmode trash though.. which seems really odd.