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Kaggath Series: Darth Traya vs Revan


Beniboybling

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Yes she is. She basically orchestrated the events of KOTOR II.

Yep, yet she still stopped them from killing her. How? Through manipulation

 

Fear , Kreia is not weak or even Average as she displayed in the game . Shes not a small potato and you get that all through the game .

If at anypoint in the begining anyone charged at her , she would likely put them down fast .

I mean it wasn't secret that she considered everyone but Exile to be weak .

She tried to make Exile think like her and how she made Revan think when he finally became Darth Revan.

As he killed anyone he considered Too Weak for his Empire .

Or atleast this is MY OWN OPINION why I think he thought that way . Kreia must be the reason Revan thinks the way he does , but I do not think its because she controlled him . I think its just his perspective on how viewed her and how those lessons were worthy in his head .

 

Kreia is not weak , even 1vs1 it would not be a easy battle or atleast from what I think . We have no clue what defenses Revan had against the Skills and Abilities Kreia had and I would be assuming too much to say outright he could . All I have for Revan in this 1vs1 is hes adaptive and studied her .................and her own admittence to him being more than her while he was a Jedi Knight . How and why remains a unknown or lacking of what is known .

 

Lastly we are talking about Jedi Knight Revan , not fully rip off my best friends Jaw Darth Revan who is a war Vet and in his Prime .

Edited by mefit
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Fear , Kreia is not weak or even Average as she displayed in the game . Shes not a small potato and you get that all through the game .

If at anypoint in the begining anyone charged at her , she would likely put them down fast .

I mean it wasn't secret that she considered everyone but Exile to be weak .

She tried to make Exile think like her and how she made Revan think when he finally became Darth Revan.

As he killed anyone he considered Too Weak for his Empire .

Or atleast this is MY OWN OPINION why I think he thought that way . Kreia must be the reason Revan thinks the way he does , but I do not think its because she controlled him . I think its just his perspective on how viewed her and how those lessons were worthy in his head .

 

Kreia is not weak , even 1vs1 it would not be a easy battle or atleast from what I think . We have no clue what defenses Revan had against the Skills and Abilities Kreia had and I would be assuming too much to say outright he could . All I have for Revan in this 1vs1 is hes adaptive and studied her .................and her own admittence to him being more than her while he was a Jedi Knight . How and why remains a unknown or lacking of what is known .

 

Lastly we are talking about Jedi Knight Revan , not fully rip off my best friends Jaw Darth Revan who is a war Vet and in his Prime .

I agree, fear is a big factor. But that is a form of manipulation.

 

As for the overall debate, I agree with Aurbere. While Revan is capable of destroying Traya's fleet. He is incapable of breaching her stronghold. In many ways it has become a superweapon, but only because through Traya's genius it was forged as so.

 

Oh, and congratulations everyone - this debate did not erupt into a flame war despite being about Revan. You all recieve a virtual cookie, a pat on the back, and an internet commendation! (apart from Rayla and Aurbere who abadoned the beloved Traya as soon as she lost her capital ship - OK, Aurbere came back so he gets a virtual cookie. But no commendation, you have forfeited the chance to purchase ridiculous pets and flying jawas!)

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I agree, fear is a big factor. But that is a form of manipulation.

 

As for the overall debate, I agree with Aurbere. While Revan is capable of destroying Traya's fleet. He is incapable of breaching her stronghold. In many ways it has become a superweapon, but only because through Traya's genius it was forged as so.

 

Oh, and congratulations everyone - this debate did not erupt into a flame war despite being about Revan. You all recieve a virtual cookie, a pat on the back, and an internet commendation! (apart from Rayla and Aurbere who abadoned the beloved Traya as soon as she lost her capital ship - OK, Aurbere came back so he gets a virtual cookie. But no commendation, you have forfeited the chance to purchase ridiculous pets and flying jawas!)

 

I'll admit, I was demoralized at the loss of the Ravager, but such things are necessary to test our resolve. After revisiting my earlier point, I have reaffirmed my position. My devotion to Traya grows stronger! :D

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I just can't believe that it has to come down to this one-on-one duel. In nearly any other scenario Revan wins.

 

I'd like to point out one thing: you say that the Trayus Acadamy survived the MSG. Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but the Trayus Acadamy wouldn't have even been intact at this point. So we can't say that it would survive bombardments (which you claim is impossible).

 

Let's go back to my scenario ('cause I'm too stubborn to give up):

Revan has blockaded Malachor, he's starved and killed most of Traya's soldiers. What's he gonna do next? Well he's gonna send some ships in for bombardment. IF they're too close to do so, then they'll be sucked into the planet. What does that do? It destroys life of Malachor does it not? If this happens, Revan will use his ships (and he'll have them programed with droids - he's good with droids) and guide them into Malachor. And he's got plenty spare ships to do so with.

 

Whatever happens, 80% (that's generous) of Traya's forces will be toast at this point. And Revan will still possess most of his soldiers, and Jedi.

 

But yeah. Beni: if this fight HAS to end up with Traya vs Revan one-on-one on Malachor, then Revan loses. I just feel that it's unfair to assume that this HAS to happen. Revan has other options and possibilities.

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I just can't believe that it has to come down to this one-on-one duel. In nearly any other scenario Revan wins.

 

I'd like to point out one thing: you say that the Trayus Acadamy survived the MSG. Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but the Trayus Acadamy wouldn't have even been intact at this point. So we can't say that it would survive bombardments (which you claim is impossible).

 

Let's go back to my scenario ('cause I'm too stubborn to give up):

Revan has blockaded Malachor, he's starved and killed most of Traya's soldiers. What's he gonna do next? Well he's gonna send some ships in for bombardment. IF they're too close to do so, then they'll be sucked into the planet. What does that do? It destroys life of Malachor does it not? If this happens, Revan will use his ships (and he'll have them programed with droids - he's good with droids) and guide them into Malachor. And he's got plenty spare ships to do so with.

 

Whatever happens, 80% (that's generous) of Traya's forces will be toast at this point. And Revan will still possess most of his soldiers, and Jedi.

 

But yeah. Beni: if this fight HAS to end up with Traya vs Revan one-on-one on Malachor, then Revan loses. I just feel that it's unfair to assume that this HAS to happen. Revan has other options and possibilities.

 

The gravity well of Malachor is very powerful. Combine that with electrical storms and we have ourselves a no-fly zone.

 

The Trayus Academy is tougher than you think. It survived the MSG and remained mostly intact. It's in the perfect place to thwart attacks.

 

If Revan sends in all of his troops, they all die. If Revan goes alone, he dies. Malachor is a death trap for those who walk its surface. Not only that, but Traya will have assassins and traps lying in wait for him. By the time Revan reaches the Academy, his forces are depleted. He'll go in there with nowhere near enough forces to take the Trayus Academy. Now if they all became Wounds in the Force, his chances are pretty good, but they aren't wounds in the Force. Which means Revan's chances of even getting to Traya are low.

 

If Revan does make it to the Trayus Core, not only is he outmatched, but he's also tired. His defenses drained by Malachor itself. Traya wins a sound victory.

 

Oh and Beni said no bombardments so Revan just can't blow Malachor away.

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The gravity well of Malachor is very powerful. Combine that with electrical storms and we have ourselves a no-fly zone.

 

The Trayus Academy is tougher than you think. It survived the MSG and remained mostly intact. It's in the perfect place to thwart attacks.

 

If Revan sends in all of his troops, they all die. If Revan goes alone, he dies. Malachor is a death trap for those who walk its surface. Not only that, but Traya will have assassins and traps lying in wait for him. By the time Revan reaches the Academy, his forces are depleted. He'll go in there with nowhere near enough forces to take the Trayus Academy. Now if they all became Wounds in the Force, his chances are pretty good, but they aren't wounds in the Force. Which means Revan's chances of even getting to Traya are low.

 

If Revan does make it to the Trayus Core, not only is he outmatched, but he's also tired. His defenses drained by Malachor itself. Traya wins a sound victory.

 

Oh and Beni said no bombardments so Revan just can't blow Malachor away.

 

Screw Malachor V. Screw it. Most. Freaking. Impossible. Battle. Ever. You basically can't win unless you're a wound in the force, or if your EU Luke Skywalker.

 

Well it's been a good debate. I did my best, as did we all. But in the end MALACHOR V!

 

Beni: could I haves a losers bracket or something for this Kaggath serie?. This fight was impossible to win, so I feel Revan deserves a second chance at a opponent that is.. well... you know.. NOT IMPOSSIBLE!!!

 

I kid. Well... sort of. I won't deny that I'm kinda pissed things turned out the way they did.

 

*sends prayer to Revan god to forgive him of his failure* I tried. I tried so hard.

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Screw Malachor V. Screw it. Most. Freaking. Impossible. Battle. Ever. You basically can't win unless you're a wound in the force, or if your EU Luke Skywalker.

 

Well it's been a good debate. I did my best, as did we all. But in the end MALACHOR V!

 

Beni: could I haves a losers bracket or something for this Kaggath serie?. This fight was impossible to win, so I feel Revan deserves a second chance at a opponent that is.. well... you know.. NOT IMPOSSIBLE!!!

 

I kid. Well... sort of. I won't deny that I'm kinda pissed things turned out the way they did.

 

*sends prayer to Revan god to forgive him of his failure* I tried. I tried so hard.

 

Well how do you think the PT Jedi felt. Palpatine held all the cards as well. Victory was impossible for them too.

 

Same thing here. Malachor is a weapon as much as it is a planet. Traya holds all the cards once the battle reaches Malachor.

 

A losers bracket would be interesting to see. Maybe once all of the Kaggath ideas Beni has are all done, we can see a winners and losers bracket? That would be cool.

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I'm confused.

 

Does Traya have any offense?

 

Aka, why does Revan have to come to her? Revan can't go to Malachor and Traya can't leave, so why is everyone saying Revan HAS to go to Traya? Why not the other way around?

 

Revan can't win without losing, but neither can Traya.

 

He has to go to Malachor because Beni says so.

 

But I would agree with him to an extent. It is likely that Revan would end up being having to attack Malachor V. Or, you know, he could just leave and wait for her to come out. But there are endless scenarios for what could happen there, so I would rather not get into it. I just don't see Traya leaving her stronghold.

 

WAIT! Couldn't this end in a stalemate? Revan is too clever to attack Malachor, and Traya is too clever to leave Malachor. I vote for a stalemate!

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WE WANT A STALEMATE!

 

Seriously; is it not the most logical thing to do? Revan would send a strike team to Malachor, and find that attacking is utterly useless. A stalemate is the most likely outcome.

 

Beni: I'm begging you man! Please reconsider!

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He has to go to Malachor because Beni says so.

 

But I would agree with him to an extent. It is likely that Revan would end up being having to attack Malachor V. Or, you know, he could just leave and wait for her to come out. But there are endless scenarios for what could happen there, so I would rather not get into it. I just don't see Traya leaving her stronghold.

 

WAIT! Couldn't this end in a stalemate? Revan is too clever to attack Malachor, and Traya is too clever to leave Malachor. I vote for a stalemate!

 

I don't think a stalemate would be possible. Remember that Revan is patriotic, so all Traya has to do is do something that will make Revan come to her. She has to pose enough of a threat for Revan to attack. This is entirely possible. She could assassinate one of his most loyal followers, or sabotage some of his ships. She has to pose enough of a threat that will force Revan to attack her.

 

While a stalemate could happen (unlikely), I don't see it happening. Revan could think he is forcing a stalemate, but really setting himself up for a systematic attack from Traya's Assassins.

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I don't think a stalemate would be possible. Remember that Revan is patriotic, so all Traya has to do is do something that will make Revan come to her. She has to pose enough of a threat for Revan to attack. This is entirely possible. She could assassinate one of his most loyal followers, or sabotage some of his ships. She has to pose enough of a threat that will force Revan to attack her.

 

While a stalemate could happen (unlikely), I don't see it happening. Revan could think he is forcing a stalemate, but really setting himself up for a systematic attack from Traya's Assassins.

 

But Revan knows Traya very well. I'm sure he's had time to duel with her and play dejarik with her. He'd see such a plan coming.

 

Also, in this scenario, the assassins aren't gonna do much good.

 

Could Revan not trick her into such a manuever? Also; you've yet to explain to me why Revan can't chuck ships at Malachor.

 

Stalemate!

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Yeah... Beni should decide.

 

He's seen both sides of the argument. We can only wait for him to announce the victor.

 

Look at it this way: no matter who loses, if Beni goes with our losers and winners brackets, we will see them return for another battle.

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The odd's were stacked against Revan from the start of this match to be honest. Any other version of Revan would have a much better chance of winning, especially Darth Revan from the JCW.

 

I agree.

 

I stll don't understand why we didn't use Darth Revan, if the combatants are suppose to be at the height of their power/ powerbases....

 

We aren't debating Jedi Kreia, so why does Revan get that handicap?

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I agree.

 

I stll don't understand why we didn't use Darth Revan, if the combatants are suppose to be at the height of their power/ powerbases....

 

We aren't debating Jedi Kreia, so why does Revan get that handicap?

 

this lol. im not even that big a fan of revan but the choice for jedi revan was pretty stupid. Unless the OP will make another Kaggath with Darth Revan

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Darth Revan vs Traya would not have worked: they have the same powerbase. Yes in a way they are supposed to be at the height of their power, but Revan seems to have several personalities so one has to be chosen. And the idea that Darth Revan > Revan is a subjective one. Edited by Beniboybling
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I can't believe I read through all of that...but I felt that I had to before I could respond. Anyway...

 

It seems the consensus of the thread is that Revan would win in conventional warfare. His fleet is vastly superior, I don't think it could be argued otherwise given the loss of the Ravager and the fact that the Sith of Kotor 2 had the entirety of their fleet pretty much defeated in a single battle by a Republic that was already on the verge of collapsing. Not to mention that Reven has been shown a master of strategy and tactics, furthering his advantage and making the disparity here insurmountable.

 

So then let's look at Kreia's shadow tactics...unless we're giving her the advantage of initiating combat and giving Revan absolutely no idea who he's fighting until she strikes first (which seems entirely against the idea of this contest in the first place) then Revan will know her power base is Malachor V. Kreia can use her assassins but that's about it... they could cause some chaos and confusion for a little while but Revan would adapt and Kreia has no larger moves to make that utilize the confusion. Her Sith and military forces are nowhere near large enough to mount an attack on Revan's forces no matter how disoriented they are by assassins. She has no comparable military, rendering her one offensive advantage null.

 

So let's say Revan is attacking Malachor V. Given the nature of the planet, Kreia's fleet can either be defending it from space or...somewhere else. None of her ships can land on the surface any more than Revan's can, so anything that does defend the planet is quickly wiped out, and either way Revan now has COMPLETE control of anything coming into or moving out of Malachor V. If there's a way to block communications with this total blockade, he'll do it and neutralize any forces Kreia has outside of Malchor V, as they would lose coordination.

 

But now we're supposed to believe that Revan's only option is to land on the planet with everything he has, and in doing so manage to eliminate all of his and Kreia's forces so completely and effectively that they are left to duel in the heart of her power? Given Revan's clear advantage leading up to that point, this is absolutely the worst maneuver possible. He has so many more options, so let's explore them. Keep in mind, at this point Kreia would be unable to organize her Sith Assassins, so even if Revan had somehow had significant casualties before this, there is nothing else Kreia can do.

 

1. Bombard them from orbit. If ships are pulled in and smashed into the surface...then steer those ships so they crash into the target while blasting it with everything it has on the way down. I think I read someone saying this was against the rules? Well that just serves to lessen a clear advantage for no good reason, but there are other options.

 

2. Feel out the planet. Send scout teams, build forward bases, established artillery, entrench yourself just as much as Kreia is so that you have a secure postion to advance from. If, in the process, Revan comes to realize the planet makes all of this an impossible tactic, then he can abandone it in the early stages and lose a very small investment of his very large forces. Kreia would control only a very small portion of the planet, which means Revan has the rest of the planet to use as he pleases. Even if establishing a base of his own is not possible, he would have plenty of time to study the planet and develop the best possible methods of transporting troops without losing them, which would significantly improve his chances if an assault were necessary.

 

3. Turn Kreia's supporters. She is in a position in which it is obvious she has lost the upper hand, so Revan communicates a willingness to pardon and let live those who give up Kreia and surrender. It's already established that Kreia is no leader and cannot inspire loyalty, so naturally a large contingent would jump at the chance to save their own skins by turning her over. Even if she somehow maintain loyalty of some of Sith...who aren't known for their loyalty to weak leaders or lost causes, it would still incite at least some infighting, weakening Kreia's forces even further.

 

4. Wait. Even without the offer of a pardon, Kreai would be unlikely to maintain the loyalties of those beneath her for an extended period of time in a siege situation that left her powerless. The soldiers would be dying even if the Sith endured, but morale would be at an incredible low and very few Sith would desire to stay and defend the academy for an attack that might come at some point in the future form Revan's massive forces. Those not powerful enough to usurp Kreia's leadership might simply abandone her, and search for wrecked ships to take them off planet or even attempt to establish themselves elsewhere on the planet.

 

5. Attack. This would happen, if it needed to happen at all, after a long blockade of the planet. Any supporters of Kreia that remained would be low in number, underfed, and very low on morale. Revan could easily lose more than half his army landing them there, but even that wouldn't matter. Even a fraction of his forces would be able to storm the Academy at this point and take it down. Even in the heart of her power, Kreia would not have the strength to fight off dozens of Jedi and hundreds or thousands of troops that would face her there.

 

 

One final note I want to make, that I feel has been disregarded this whole debate. Every one keeps talking about how Kreia would attempt to turn Revan's men, or convert them, or cause them to lose faith in their leader...but Revan's forces have VERY clearly been shown to be exceptionally loyal to him, and Kreia's forces have been very clearly shown to be DISLOYAL. They are Sith, after all, and have clearly betrayed her in the past in favor of following the other 2 Sith Lords...so why would anyone think it is Revan's forces that would abandon him and not hers?

 

Kreia's has one advantage here, the Mass Shadow Generator making landing on the planet difficult (even though I thought the OP said "No superweapons, e.g. Mass Shadow Generator...") but that can only count for so much when she is clearly disadvantaged in every other way that matters. And even with that taken into account, Revan has numerous victory conditions that are extremely likely to occur. Kreia has one: she gets to 1v1 Revan in the place she's most powerful, which would be achieved through the contrived coincidence of ALL of their forces dying in one battle. So who's winning this fight? It seems pretty clear to me...

Edited by NasalJack
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You make some excellent points. I had not considered a full scale invasion with entrenching etcetera - more of an assault, but seeing as this would be disastrous Revan would seek to pursue a different path. And yours is very plausible. I'll discuss the finer points of your argument when I have more time and after others have had the chance to do so. I will say however that there is no rule against the orbital bombardment of Malachor - it's just very difficult to do so. But I'll discuss that later.

 

P.S. Don't get the idea I'm all for Traya. As arbiter of this debate I must remain impartial.

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