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Immortal Juggernaut/Defense Guardian Set Bonus Discussion


EricMusco

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  • Dev Post

Hey everyone,

 

We wanted to take a moment to reach out to the community to collect ideas on set bonuses. We are looking for opinions on current and previous set bonuses as well as concepts for future. This thread will cover Immortal Juggernauts/Defense Guardians.

 

Note: Our intent is to have set bonuses not increase survivability by more than 5%. Please keep this in mind when posting your suggestions.

 

Current Level 60 Set Bonuses (for reference)

  • 2-Piece: Crushing Blow or Guardian Slash increases damage reduction by 2% for 4 seconds.
  • 4-Piece: Aegis Assault or Warding Strike reduces the cooldown of Taunt and Challenging Call or Threatening Scream by 2 seconds per activation.
  • 6-Piece: Increases the duration of Blade Turning by 1.5 second, and the duration of Invincible or Warding Call by 3 seconds.
  • Cheers, all!

The SWTOR Combat Team

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I find the current 2 piece and 6 piece decent and working well, but the 4 piece i feel makes no differences at all.

 

I completely disagree. The taunt CD reduction is far more valuable to me than the minor mitigation bonus of the 2 and 6 pc- I don't know how many times that's saved my group when I needed a taunt shortly after I already used a taunt, not to mention the additional group damage reduction from the threatening scream utility. Juggernaut tanks imo are lucky enough to have 3 all useful bonuses and I hope any changes to the set bonuses will be more effects in addition to these rather than taking any of them away.

Edited by FireFoxed
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Personally, I'd like to see bonuses to Threat gen - either a passive increase by a few percent overall, or a threat increase to one or two skills by a larger amount, say, 20% - things like sweeping Slash to help with AoE tanking. Another way would be to let threat hit more targets - Saber throw hits the Target for 100% more threat and two additional targets within 5m for 50% threat. Vicious Throw hits an additional 2 targets within 5m of the primary target for 50% threat.

 

As for survivability though - just reward people for using skills. Backhand bonus called 'Seeing Double' - back hand the target, causing them to see douple for 3 seconds reducing their chance to hit you for the duration by 50% (effectively just increases your defence chance, but gives it more flavour).

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2pc - increase movement speed by 15-20% (seriously right now guardians barely have any movement) and speccing into enure movement buff is barely any help.

 

4pc - Riposte instead of sundering strike reduces the cooldown of taunt.

 

6pc - fine as it is

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2pc - fine as it is or give us a speed boost.

 

4pc - Change the ability to trigger the taunt CD reduction from Aegis Assault to Relation. Reason for this is the PT is able to lower their CD faster then any other tank. They use Rocket Punch which has a lower CD and is able to reset it's CD on a proc.

 

6pc - Needs massive improvement. This set bonus is very weak and as the 6th piece set bonus should be the best bonus, this set bonus needs to be buffed up quite a bit. 1.5 secs of turning blade and 3 secs of Invincible basicly do nothing. Invincible is the weakest CD for a Tanking jugg and turning blade while a great pvp ability as it can block 2 GCDs with the set bonus, isn't that helpful against many bosses in the game. Players/Bosses who use Force/Tech abilities can bypass this set bonus.

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2pc - Riposte instead of sundering strike reduces the cooldown of taunt.

 

Decent suggestion. As for the movement speed buff, just make it so that the 6-piece says, "Increases the duration of Blade Turning by 1.5 second, and the duration of Invincible or Warding Call by 3 seconds. In addition, your guarded target no longer needs to be attacked for you to gain Rule of Two." This will make it so that, while we don't have an instant super speed boost that doesn't require a target to leap to like Hydraulics/Force Speed, we will passively have more speed than the other two tanks all the time(as long as we have someone guarded).

 

 

 

Kind of on a tangent, but why do you guys want to change the set bonuses up now? :rak_02::rak_02: The only set bonuses that really need changing currently are just some minor specific ones, not every single one for every single class. Random little things like DPS Sorcs still using their old alacrity buff or some classes gaining their auto-crit proc weirdly...Most of the other set bonuses are perfectly fine though or are being adjusted in 3.3 to be valuable.

Edited by OMGITSJAD
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Decent suggestion. As for the movement speed buff, just make it so that the 6-piece says, "Increases the duration of Blade Turning by 1.5 second, and the duration of Invincible or Warding Call by 3 seconds. In addition, your guarded target no longer needs to be attacked for you to gain Rule of Two." This will make it so that, while we don't have an instant super speed boost that doesn't require a target to leap to like Hydraulics/Force Speed, we will passively have more speed than the other two tanks all the time(as long as we have someone guarded).

 

 

 

Kind of on a tangent, but why do you guys want to change the set bonuses up now? :rak_02::rak_02: The only set bonuses that really need changing currently are just some minor specific ones, not every single one for every single class. Random little things like DPS Sorcs still using their old alacrity buff or some classes gaining their auto-crit proc weirdly...Most of the other set bonuses are perfectly fine though or are being adjusted in 3.3 to be valuable.

I'm glad to see them engaging with me community more. I suggested something for every toon/spec I play. Everyone should! but don't make suggestions like that dudes in sawbones healer set bonus feedback sticky. LOL that was hilarious. He basically made scoundrel invincible.
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•2-Piece: Crushing Blow or Guardian Slash increases damage reduction by 2% for 4 seconds. Good like it no problem here.

 

•4-Piece: Aegis Assault or Warding Strike reduces the cool down of Taunt and Challenging Call or Threatening Scream by 2 seconds per activation. Sux like all 4 sets do it seems. Taunt cool down "mehh" it fine at 15 seconds but 2 seconds on threatening scream worthless to me. Make it a 15 second reduction to scream now we talking good threat rotation plus damage reduction to raid group. Do that and drop the taunt cool down I would use then!

 

•6-Piece: Increases the duration of Blade Turning by 1.5 second, and the duration of Invincible or Warding Call by 3 seconds. 1.5 and 3 seconds not worth to me as you may not even take damage for those extra seconds as few as they are. Either triple the time or my personal favorite give me a 10% threat increase. Especially if raid got a lot of melee. Although the 4 set does give more threat variation and 2 piece gives damage reduction why give another dame reduction or threat here? Maybe increase damage dealt on sundering assault to increase threat? As a Jug tank I got plenty of damage reduction through my rotation if played right.

 

I only run the 2 piece for my Jug, the loss of armor stats from 198 to 192 set piece just not worth it for the gain in my opinion. My dps I run the 6 pieces on sniper and merc. Jug tank just not enough bang for the buck to me.

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I have no experience with Set Bonuses, so please take my comment with a grain of salt. :o Perhaps a new tier could be introduced where an ability is tied to a mainhand/offhand combination, say a modest offset (~2 %) to the damage reduction incurred by using Soresu form? Maybe this could be tied into new Relics available for tokens instead? Just spit-balling. :)
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I'm currently very happy with my juggernaut tank set bonus. As to the people who say that the 6piece is very weak, I completely disagree, 1.5 seconds extra blade turning is great for defending against big bursts of melee/ranged damage. 3 seconds of extra invincible is also very nice, remember invincible is the juggernauts best cooldown for mitigating force/tech damage, barring saber reflect, which only reflects a couple of attacks, rather than invincible's straight up damage taken decrease.

4piece isn't spectacular, but it does allow you to keep taunt active on a boss for a consecutive 18 seconds, which is great, because the start of the fight is generally where keeping aggro is the hardest.

Edited by AdjeYo
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I've always liked the 4-piece and 6-piece for Juggardians, but the 2-piece is super dull. Would it be valid if it helped with non-survivability stuff, such as threat building or mobility?

 

Threat Gen isn't an issue for Guardian. Mobility is, but tying mobility into set bonus is a bad idea because it's such a trivial thing that should be tied to disciplines.

 

I'm currently very happy with my juggernaut tank set bonus. As to the people who say that the 6piece is very weak, I completely disagree, 1.5 seconds extra blade turning is great for defending against big bursts of melee/ranged damage. 3 seconds of extra invincible is also very nice, remember invincible is the juggernauts best cooldown for mitigating force/tech damage, barring saber reflect, which only reflects a couple of attacks, rather than invincible's straight up damage taken decrease.

4piece isn't spectacular, but it does allow you to keep taunt active on a boss for a consecutive 18 seconds, which is great, because the start of the fight is generally where keeping aggro is the hardest.

 

It's not weak no, but the issue is it comes off as something that should be tied to the class. The 3 seconds of Warding Call is good but again, it makes little sense why it's not the same as ward. Blade Turning, though amazing in its situation, ranged and melee abilities don't come across too often for the set bonus to be considered amazing. I'd make the 12 sec Warding Call baseline, make the 6 piece a increase in Blade Turning and bring back the old Sonic Barrier buff but not have it trivial.

Edited by Luckygunslinger
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Maybe the 2piece can be something like this:

Using enrage/combat focus will make the next crushing blow/guardian slash damage up to 7 additional nearby enemies for the same amount.

 

This way, we won't need to try to secure aggro without our highest threat ability until we can use our aegis assault/warding strike without losing aggro.

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Maybe the 2piece can be something like this:

Using enrage/combat focus will make the next crushing blow/guardian slash damage up to 7 additional nearby enemies for the same amount.

 

This way, we won't need to try to secure aggro without our highest threat ability until we can use our aegis assault/warding strike without losing aggro.

 

2-piece is fine and decent for slowly reducing DTPS.

4-piece is only needed for Commanders if you swap Sano and Kurse in HM.

 

Enrage granting Aegis has been something I've been asking the devs for since the first week of 3.0. But again, threat gen isn't an issue with the tools we have.

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2-piece is fine and decent for slowly reducing DTPS.

4-piece is only needed for Commanders if you swap Sano and Kurse in HM.

 

Enrage granting Aegis has been something I've been asking the devs for since the first week of 3.0. But again, threat gen isn't an issue with the tools we have.

 

The 4piece is great for having a consecutive 18 seconds of taunt active on a boss, which is pretty nice tbh. Imo nothing really needs to change about the juggernaut set bonus, but I could do with losing the 2piece in return for getting enrage to turn crushing blow into an aoe (which should be baseline, but getting it via set bonus is better than nothing). Because AoE threath is kinda weak if you don't have saber reflect extra threath or aegis buff already active.

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2-piece is fine and decent for slowly reducing DTPS.

4-piece is only needed for Commanders if you swap Sano and Kurse in HM.

 

Enrage granting Aegis has been something I've been asking the devs for since the first week of 3.0. But again, threat gen isn't an issue with the tools we have.

 

I know you're quite "knowledgeable" about Guardian tanks, but for proper aggro generation on a Guardian running with competent DPS for certain fights, the taunt cooldown reduction is quite nice and helps achieve a full 18 second taunt cycle off the bat. Additionally you can help out your raid group with Guardianship more often on things like HM Revan. More casual players who taunt at the wrong times can more quickly overcome their mistakes. Threat gen is not an issue with competent tanks, but competent tanks make use of the tools they have to achieve that goal. This does include taunts. I wonder when you'll update your guide to include an opener that will hold against competent dps...

 

As for what you said about Blade Turning, in the majority of current content yes, Blade turning is not that useful. However in future operations (fingers crossed here), it may be. Besides, Saber Ward is by far one of the worst cooldowns Guardians have for current content. For your statement at the end of that comment, there is no way to bring back the Sonic Barrier buff that isn't trivial. It really doesn't amount to much and honestly you won't notice a difference. The set bonus increase to Warding Call is fine, it gives incentive to get the 6 piece.

 

I know you've appointed yourself king Guardian and our representative, but honestly you need to think about things before you post (yes this is going to piss you off). The current set bonus is actually fine unlike for DPS Guardians.

 

The best way to improve the set bonus is to tie the taunt CD reset to Blade Storm to somewhat keep up with Vanguards. Other than that, there is little work to be done to fix this not broken set bonus.

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I know you're quite "knowledgeable" about Guardian tanks, but for proper aggro generation on a Guardian running with competent DPS for certain fights, the taunt cooldown reduction is quite nice and helps achieve a full 18 second taunt cycle off the bat. Additionally you can help out your raid group with Guardianship more often on things like HM Revan. More casual players who taunt at the wrong times can more quickly overcome their mistakes. Threat gen is not an issue with competent tanks, but competent tanks make use of the tools they have to achieve that goal. This does include taunts. I wonder when you'll update your guide to include an opener that will hold against competent dps...

 

I don't disagree with what you're saying at all. But in the opener, to be fair, the 4-piece only benefits single target taunt. Which is true, you can lock the boss to you for 18 seconds which is nice but the 4-piece doesn't make or break tanking. Now, I'm not trying to demean the 4-piece at all, it's boring but fine, it's required for one strat in HM but beyond that, it's not really required. I do agree Guardianship helps the raid but in scenarios where you need to delay AOE Taunt because you're out of range or don't have aggro, it undoes that benefit of reducing the CD.

 

As for what you said about Blade Turning, in the majority of current content yes, Blade turning is not that useful. However in future operations (fingers crossed here), it may be. Besides, Saber Ward is by far one of the worst cooldowns Guardians have for current content. For your statement at the end of that comment, there is no way to bring back the Sonic Barrier buff that isn't trivial. It really doesn't amount to much and honestly you won't notice a difference. The set bonus increase to Warding Call is fine, it gives incentive to get the 6 piece.

 

I would have agreed with that blade turning assessment in 2.0 when Dread Palace was rocking. Issue is, we've now seen 4 operations in a row with a tech/force bias over Melee/Range, so it appears that we're not gonna be seeing an inevitable change in this ratio. And though I agree with the 6-piece the issue is that the 6-piece feels baseline, that's my point. It's a solid good set bonus, issue is, I don't see why 12 seconds is not a standard thing. With Warding Call being the best CD in HM Rav and TOS for Guardians since so much of the damage is Tech/Force, especially Revan, yes the 6-piece is the way to go. My thing is make Warding Call 12 seconds off the bat, add the blade turning bonus to increase say... Force/Tech Resist chance by 50% (i.e Explosive Fuel-esque nature) on top of duration. As for the barrier buff, there are various ways, even a rough 30% increase is optimal enough. It's not a big deal over all. Something would be a change but in the end, the 6-piece isn't horrible, just, boring.

 

I know you've appointed yourself king Guardian and our representative, but honestly you need to think about things before you post (yes this is going to piss you off). The current set bonus is actually fine unlike for DPS Guardians.

 

If you say so? I don't think of myself as a representative or king of Guardian. I like the class and I like to help the community. But if you feel like the set bonus is fine /closethread and no one else post. But if you have no ideas to bring to the table, why even come into the thread?

 

The best way to improve the set bonus is to tie the taunt CD reset to Blade Storm to somewhat keep up with Vanguards. Other than that, there is little work to be done to fix this not broken set bonus.

 

Taunt to reset Bladestorm? That's even more insane than increase the barrier's threshold. To have pretty much a back to back barrier by taunt fluffing. Sorry but that's just out of the realm of balanced vs. a 20% to 30% sonic barrier increase.

Edited by Luckygunslinger
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Taunt to reset Bladestorm? That's even more insane than increase the barrier's threshold. To have pretty much a back to back barrier by taunt fluffing. Sorry but that's just out of the realm of balanced vs. a 20% to 30% sonic barrier increase.

 

I'm pretty sure he means adding force scream to the things that reduce the active CD on taunt with the 4piece. Because powertech do have a bit of an unfair advantage with heat blast, since it's usable way more often than what juggernauts and assassins have.

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I'm pretty sure he means adding force scream to the things that reduce the active CD on taunt with the 4piece. Because powertech do have a bit of an unfair advantage with heat blast, since it's usable way more often than what juggernauts and assassins have.

 

Ding ding ding we have a reader.

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