I have mastered several scouts and bombers. I have unlocked/mastered every component on most of these ships on both Imp and Pub sides. My question is I have noticed certain pilots can melt my shield/hull in less then 3 seconds flat and solo kill me regardless of the build of my ship or type of ship. I not talking about death matches. I in turn can empty fully charged lasers/ missiles/ rocket combo that I can think of into them and I'm unable to solo kill these same pilots. I'm noticing this happening a lot before and after the last few patches and I'm just wondering if I'm missing something?

My current Imp builds and my pub builds mirror these as well.

Razor (mastered): light lasers, seismic /concussion mines, overcharge shields, shield power converter, reinforced armor, large reactor and dampening sensors.

Sting (mastered): burst lasers, cluster missiles, blaster overcharge, distortion field, koiogran turn, lightweight armor, damage capacitor, turbo reactor and regen thrusters.

I've played SWTOR since launch and GSF since early access and this really sucks when this happens. I'm not saying there is cheating going on or at least I hope not. I've had noobs say that I've cheated before after crushing them and had the satisfaction of knowing that I didn't cheat. What is wrong with my builds, any suggestions?

 

Thank you everybody for your very useful comments. I play on the Harbinger and Jedi Covenant in the past under several call signs Roundup, Solless , Ka'Boom and several others. I'm currently building up the new scouts and SF. I solo queue mostly due to the odd hours I keep and there isn't a lot of guild members playing GSF during the hours I keep. My question was solo kills and solo kills alone. I'm very aware of my space in battle and the kills I'm talking about are not double teams. On the other hand I have unloaded fully charged burst lasers and rockets into the same pilots and I'm unable to solo kill them. Two pilots in peculiar one flies a Quarrel and the other flies a Clarion. I've attempted to double team the guy in the Quarrel and was still unable to kill him. The Clarion guy within 3 seconds or less is able to solo kill every ship I own but I have solo killed him 2 or 3 times with my gunship but not with anything else. I not the best pilot and I prefer bombers since my scout on scout hit % sucks but its pretty good when I'm hunting gunships using a strafing or hit and run tactics. I prefer going against the better pilots and the heavy defended sats so my numbers are usually low or bad. Thanks again for your comments.

Edited July 15, 2014 by Jason_Baker

The sting is fairly standard build. One thing to understand about it though, is that Evasion is a random defense. When it works, it works better than every other defense in GSF combined, when it fails though, it fails completely and offers no defensive benefit at all. People take it because on average it's still better than the other options on a ship like a scout that can stack high levels of evasion.

 

Being hard to kill until you suddenly disintegrate into a fireball is basically the expected outcome for that build, unless you fly so well that you just never get hit. If you don't like that then you could switch to reinforced armor and directional shields, but that doesn't give you a lot of burst damage resistance on a hull as light as a scout's, and it is a mild overall survivability downgrade.

 

 

Typically "surprise" deaths come from a few sources.

 

Lack of situational awareness. People you didn't notice are hitting you in addition to the people you did notice hitting you.

 

Damage overcharge hits in TDM battles.

 

Crits from hard hitting weapons, railguns, BLCs, and some of the heavy missiles are the chief culprits (but shame on you if you're getting hit by heavy missiles on your scout). Crits are much less threatening to a bomber.

 

Superior cooldown combination use by opponents. If they're stacking the right cooldowns, and you don't either stack countering cooldowns or run and hide until their cooldowns wear off, then yes, you will get destroyed almost instantly even in a mastered ship. Scouts and to a much lesser extent gunships are usually the ones responsible for this sort of thing.

 

At any rate there's nothing particularly wrong with either build, though the bomber is shield heavy enough that tailored builds could shred it faster than you might expect by using shield piercing.

 

I'd also add that dampening sensors are pretty useless on a bomber. Communications would likely be a better choice.

 

On the sting you might think about switching to large reactor. Turbo can be better, but it requires very specific situations that if you don't work at creating tend to be rare in GSF. If you want the details there are threads where Kuciwalker, Verain, Nemarus, a few others, and I have had long and math heavy arguments about the relative value of large and turbo reactors. You can probably find them using advanced search on the GSF forums if you care about the details. Both reactors can be good, but large is the one that you don't have to think about after you've selected it. It also protects against burst damage better, where turbo is better at regular small amounts of damage over a long period.

Edited July 14, 2014 by Ramalina

Razor (mastered): light lasers, seismic /concussion mines, overcharge shields, shield power converter, reinforced armor, large reactor and dampening sensors.

With your bomber you can not attack satellites, you lack the armor penetrating. Heavy lasers are more suitable. In addition Deflection Armor and Charged Plating would be better against enemy bombers. I also prefer Interdiction mines. But that is a matter of taste. Dampening sensor you do not help, would be better communication.

Alright well as for how other pilots are doing more damage then you, that's going to have to be accuracy because your stings weapon choices can absolutely do a ton of damage. As for your razor build, I would def change to heavy's because the shield/armor peircing will really help you get some kills.

Now at then moment I believe there are 2 good sting builds, 1 is used more often then others.

 

Sting (More common dog fighting superiority build)

Primary: Burst Laser Cannon

Secondary: Cluster Missile

System: Targeting Telemetry (Blaster overcharge is ok here too, but I prefer targeting as it syncs up with concentrated fire better, has way more up time and is much harder to kite should your opponent see that you poped it)

Shield: Distortion Field

Engine: Barrel roll or Retro thrusters (I saw you picked koiogran turn, as I think engines are very player specfic its probably fine, I just cant see that much utility in it other then breaking a missile.)

Capacitor: Damage Capacitor

Reactor: Large Reactor

Armor: Lightweight Armor

Thrusters: Regeneration Thrusters

Crew: Offensive: 6% accuracy/25% ammo Defensive: 5% evasion/10% Shield max Tactical: Doesn't really matter just pick whatever copilot you want here Engineering: 13% effiency engines/blasters

Copilots ability: Concentrated fire (this will get you that crazy burst you're looking for) Wingman or Running Interference

 

The other sting build swaps burst lasers and cluster missile for quads and rocket pods and is more dps but has no dog fighting power. Its pretty much a gunship killer.

 

For Razorwire most use it to defend/attack satelites in domination and the best build in my opinion looks like this.

 

Razorwire

Primary: Heavy Laser Cannon

Secondary: Seismic Mine

System: Interdiction Mine or Concussion Mine (Since the nerf to interdiction some have been changing to concussion for a little more hull damage, I myself still prefer interdiction because the slow is invaluable)

Shield: Charged Plating

Engine: Hyperspace Beacon (This ability might seem terrible if you're solo q ing, however if you do have a group its invaluable.)

Armor: Deflection Armor

Reactor: Large Reactor

Magazine: Regeneration Extender

Sensors: Communication Sensors

Crew: Offensive: 6% Accuracy/2 Degrees firing arc Defensive: 9% Damage reduction/10% Shield max Tactical: Communication/Sensor range Engineering: 13% Engine effiency/10% Engine Max

Copilot: Hydrospanner (This is the only ship you should ever take hydrospanner on, as you will spend most of your time hiding around the satelite and with all that damage reduction the extra health actually makes a difference.)

 

I hope this helps you figure out how some builds might differ from yours, if you let me know what server you play on and your character name I can come chat with you if that's something you're interested in.

Just to emphasize something Drakkolich covered that I forgot to spell out in my first post, crew selection for passive and active abilities is very important at higher levels of gear and experience. A ship build that doesn't include appropriate crew choices is not a complete ship build.

Not sure why everyone is recommending Charged Plating. Most of the burst kill weapons (Slug, BLC, Rockets) ignore armor, making Charged Plating worthless against them. Charged Plating really only protects you against other minelayers.

 

I used a very similar Razorwire build and could live for ages. But only in Domination, and only once I got on the node. Make sure that while you are flying toward a node, you SAVE your boost. Do not use it until you are under attack while on final approach. You want the window in which they can shoot you to be as small as possible.

 

Once on the node, keep changing your throttle speed. Stay mostly under the skirt, as it will frustrate Gunships, but if you start taking damage, boost and flip to the top side. Keep power to engines, as your converter will recharge your shields much faster than they regen. While under attack, don't worry too much about shooting. Let your mines do the work while you focus on evasion. When you aren't under attack, use HLCs to kill distant targets, but never leave your node except to switch to another node.

 

As for your Scout, Turbo Reactor isn't going to help you survive burst kills, and Scouts have crappy shield regen anyway. Switch to Large.

 

Finally, you need to prioritize survival over killing. Even if you're about to finish someone off, if you start seeing flashes of red, you need to take action or you will die. Distortion Field's active, or angling Directional shields to rear, can buy you 1-3 seconds if the attacker isn't using offensive cooldowns, but it's best not to take that chance--just go evasive and immediately press R to target your attacker. Even if you die, you will at least see what killed you.

Your build for the sting could use some minor tweaks (namely the stuff drako pointed out) but IMO this is more about playstyle.

 

The real trick to survival is in flying, and knowing when to commit and when to run. Scouts especially will burn their offensive cooldowns and hope that you stay still / in range for the short duration. As soon as you start taking damage, go evasive (big movements to throw off their aiming arc) Ignoring this even for a second to finish a kill can be a fatal mistake.

 

Try to use line of sight to your advantage when someone is coming after you, using the terrain to break missile locks, this will net you extra time, and people start to make mistakes when they get frustrated in a prolonged chase.

 

Some people are really good at aiming, the quicker you react and go evasive the better the chance that you will survive. As a scout you need to be very aggressive, but also very picky about when to commit. Hope that helps =)

Edited July 14, 2014 by DamascusAdontise

Not sure why everyone is recommending Charged Plating. Most of the burst kill weapons (Slug, BLC, Rockets) ignore armor, making Charged Plating worthless against them. Charged Plating really only protects you against other minelayers.

 

So we run charged plating for a number of reasons, it being the most protection vs other minelayers is probably one of the bigest ones. There are however a few other ones, the only armor penetration a razorwire really has to worry about is burst lasers and slug, all of the other ones are really easy to line of sight using the satelite. To top it off burst lasers are only on gunships and scouts, gunships dont really want to be on the node trying to burst laser a bomber (although it does happen) and scouts are countered by the mines you are droping. Now because of the mine nerfs last patch we are seeing way more scouts be brave and attack the bombers on the node but the mines still deal with them fairly quickly. Which means all you are really really worried about it slug railgun and again unless there are 2-3 really good gunships pincering you, its still pretty easy to line of sight them. As you see with good defensive bomber play you can eliminate or reduce by a large margin almost all the weapons that have armor pen.

 

The charged plating build also doesn't need shield power converter to make it work where as overcharged shield really really does, so it allows you to play with hyperspace beacon which in my opinion is one of the bigest reasons to even play the razorwire anymore. Hyperspace beacon wins denon, and is really good in kuat mesas. There are still good spots in lost shipyards but they are fairly well traveled making it more difficult to find good spots for the beacon.

 

A couple of reasons i don't like overcharged shield, a common technique is to ion railgun spam a node to aoe the mines, which really hurts overcharged shield as it does good damage to all those shields. I really don't like the horrible shield regen you have with overcharged which is why in my opinion you always have to use shield power converter with it, which does give you more engine capacity once mastered but while using it on a node gives you less engine power to los.

 

Now these are all just my opinions on why I think the charged plating build is superior, I would love to hear counter arguments on why you like the overcharged build. I just think hyperspace beacon especially in grouped play (which most of you know is how I play like 95% of my games) is so important.

I think part of the idea behind the shields build on a minelayer is that without an inherent really good source of hull repair it's easier to regen shields than to deal with bleedthrough.

 

Of course most of the weapons that a bomber notices have shield piercing in addition to armor penetration so I'm not sure how much that helps. Last time I touched a bomber was in the uber-SIM era so I'm not sure how the current meta looks from the bomber pilot's view.

 

Only thing I can think of is that maybe shields are a bit better if you're getting hit by thermite torpedoes on a regular basis? In that a thermite landed at the right time pretty much hard counters use of charged plating, but only soft counters having a crap-ton of shield points.

 

Be interesting to see what Nemarus has to say in reply to your question Drakkolich.

In my experience, a single Hyperspace Beacon is really only effective against those teams that you'd already beat anyway. Any veteran team is going to A) shoot the Hyperspace Beacon or B) kill its owner quickly. That being said, if you are regularly part of a VOIP premade and commit 2+ people to running Hyperspace Beacon every Domination match and carefully coordinate its use (as I know you guys sometimes do) then it becomes much harder to defeat.

 

But for the OP, who I suspect does not regularly fly with an elite premade, a single Hyperspace Beacon isn't going to have that huge an effect, especially if he can't stay alive for a long time.

 

And as far as Charged Plating vs. Overcharged Shields, I look at as a rather simple comparison of what weapons each shield protects against.

 

Charged Plating will only block damage (19 out of 30 seconds) from:

Rapids

LLC's

MLC's

Quads

Cluster Missiles

Plasma Railgun

Interdiction Mines

Concussion Mines

Seismic Mines

Seeker Mines

Missile Sentry Drone

Interdiction Sentry Drone

 

And 11 out of 30 seconds, it will leave you more vulnerable to those weapons, due to the constant 20% hull bleedthrough.

 

Meanwhile, Charged Plating never blocks (and because of bleedthrough, leaves you particularly vulnerable to) damage from:

BLC's

HLC's

Rocket Pods

Concussion Missiles

Thermite Torpedoes

Slug Railgun

Railgun Sentry Drone

 

Of the above list, BLC's are found on almost every T2 Scout. HLC's are found on almost every Strike and Bomber. Rocket Pods are found on almost every T1 Scout (and many T2 Scouts). Thermite Torpedoes are found on almost every T3 Scout (and many T1 Scouts). Slug Railguns are found on every Gunship. Railgun Sentry Drones are quite common on Dronecarriers. In other words, the weapons that Charged Plating does not protect against (and leaves you more vulnerable against) are some of the most popular weapons in the current meta.

 

Overcharged Shields will give good, constant protection against all of the above weapons, on both lists, except Seismic Mines. Sure, some have some shield piercing that will cause some small hull damage attrition over time, but no more than you'd get from every weapon leaking 20% through during Charged Plating's 11 seconds of downtime.

 

I think it really depends on the OP's experience. If he's finding that he's killed by other Minelayers, then it might be worth considering Charged Plating--and even then, if they have Charged Plating too, then that's going to be decided by numbers and luck. So you might as well make yourself more durable to everything else in the meta.

 

Though honestly it wouldn't hurt switching to Deflection Armor just to make you last a little longer against Seismics. Reinforced Armor is pretty much only good against Proton Torpedoes, as it increases the number of torpedoes required to kill you from 2 to 3 (or 4 if you take Hydrospanner).

 

But if he's getting killed by all sorts of ships, then I think Overcharged + E2S Converter is the way to go.

 

My guess is this is much more about not mastering defensive flying than any equipment issue.

Edited July 14, 2014 by Nemarus

In my experience, a single Hyperspace Beacon is really only effective against those teams that you'd already beat anyway. Any veteran team is going to A) shoot the Hyperspace Beacon or B) kill its owner quickly. That being said, if you are regularly part of a VOIP premade and commit 2+ people to running Hyperspace Beacon every Domination match and carefully coordinate its use (as I know you guys sometimes do) then it becomes much harder to defeat.

 

But for the OP, who I suspect does not regularly fly with an elite premade, a single Hyperspace Beacon isn't going to have that huge an effect, especially if he can't stay alive for a long time.

 

And as far as Charged Plating vs. Overcharged Shields, I look at as a rather simple comparison of what weapons each shield protects against.

 

Charged Plating will only block damage (19 out of 30 seconds) from:

Rapids

LLC's

MLC's

Quads

Cluster Missiles

Plasma Railgun

Interdiction Mines

Concussion Mines

Seismic Mines

Seeker Mines

Missile Sentry Drone

Interdiction Sentry Drone

 

And 11 out of 30 seconds, it will leave you more vulnerable to those weapons, due to the constant 20% hull bleedthrough.

 

Meanwhile, Charged Plating never blocks (and because of bleedthrough, leaves you particularly vulnerable to) damage from:

BLC's

HLC's

Rocket Pods

Concussion Missiles

Thermite Torpedoes

Slug Railgun

Railgun Sentry Drone

 

Of the above list, BLC's are found on almost every T2 Scout. HLC's are found on almost every Strike and Bomber. Rocket Pods are found on almost every T1 Scout (and many T2 Scouts). Thermite Torpedoes are found on almost every T3 Scout (and many T1 Scouts). Slug Railguns are found on every Gunship. Railgun Sentry Drones are quite common on Dronecarriers. In other words, the weapons that Charged Plating does not protect against (and leaves you more vulnerable against) are some of the most popular weapons in the current meta.

 

Overcharged Shields will give good, constant protection against all of the above weapons, on both lists, except Seismic Mines. Sure, some have some shield piercing that will cause some small hull damage attrition over time, but no more than you'd get from every weapon leaking 20% through during Charged Plating's 11 seconds of downtime.

 

I think it really depends on the OP's experience. If he's finding that he's killed by other Minelayers, then it might be worth considering Charged Plating--and even then, if they have Charged Plating too, then that's going to be decided by numbers and luck. So you might as well make yourself more durable to everything else in the meta.

 

Though honestly it wouldn't hurt switching to Deflection Armor just to make you last a little longer against Seismics. Reinforced Armor is pretty much only good against Proton Torpedoes, as it increases the number of torpedoes required to kill you from 2 to 3 (or 4 if you take Hydrospanner).

 

But if he's getting killed by all sorts of ships, then I think Overcharged + E2S Converter is the way to go.

 

My guess is this is much more about not mastering defensive flying than any equipment issue.

 

The thing you need to understand is this... If everyone good is using charged plating but you, then you're doing something wrong.

Hugs and kisses.

Edited July 14, 2014 by phoenixjon

The thing you need to understand is this... If everyone good is using charged plating but you, then you're doing something wrong.

Hugs and kisses.

 

And what you need to understand is that the OP sounds like a new pilot who often flies solo--in which case the reasons for taking Charged Plating (allowing Hyperspace Beacon, surviving against other Minelayers) may not be as relevant to the OP as they are to your ace team.

 

Hyperspace Beacon and Charged Plating are both powerful specialized components. But they both require a more advanced level of skill than most players (especially new ones) have.

 

With Hyperspace Beacon, you have to know when and where to place it, such that both it and you won't get destroyed, and such that it will actually get used by your team.

 

Charged Plating requires a keen knowledge of exactly which weapons in the game have armor piercing, as well as the ability to predict when to use its ability so as to maximize the protection it gives and not leave you vulnerable at the wrong 11 seconds.

 

For the average player (which the OP identifies himself as by the fact that he's using DF + Turbo), Overcharged + E2S Converter is probably going to give a more even and reliable experience. The guy needs to learn fundamentals, like how to avoid getting shot and which crew skills to use, before he starts worrying about expert defensive cooldown usage.

 

Once again you show your complete inability (or unwillingness) to put yourself in anyone else's shoes. The game (thank god) is not played by a bunch of you's. And even Drakolich, who is many times your better in every possible way, can conduct a civil conversation without resorting to petty insults and trolling.

Edited July 14, 2014 by Nemarus

Read my guide (see signature) or use this strategy (best strategy). Most of what was talked about in here is easy to find there. Too, it features both common bomber builds and a slew of popular scout builds. Edited July 14, 2014 by TrinityLyre

So I have a problem with your list of weapons Nemarus, on paper those weapons do have armor pen and technically do weaken charged platings usefullness, the problem however is that more then half of those weapons specifically HLC's, Rocket Pods, Thermite torpedo and to some extent concussion and railgun sentry are all negated by good defensive bomber play. By defensive play i mean line of sighting all of these weapons. Railgun sentry drones are easily destroyed by just dropping mines on them if they are on the node or line of sighting them. BLC's and Slug railgun are the ones that are really hard to avoid, however the ships that have BLC's are very weak to mines so using your mines effectively vs them is important. If there is only 1 gunship then its easily line of sighted.

 

However while line of sighting all these things the one thing you cant deal with are other mines, which is what charged plating is there for. You can focus 100% of your attention on the things shooting at you instead of trying to not run into mines. Where as with Overcharged not only is it hard to get your shields back, but you are effectively lowered the amount of space for los ing you have to work with, because you have to avoid the other bombers mines.

 

Now when playing in a team environment bringing charged plating and a healing ship like an imperium/clarion is just ridiculously good. That's when this build truly shines.

 

Now you talked about how hyperspace beacon is only good if you have 2 of them, where I think they are more useful if you have 2, beacon positioning is really important. You never want the beacon actually on the node, or in any high traffic area. For example putting a beacon between A and B in lost shipyards in the center of the asteroid sounds like a good idea but its actually a very bad location, its much better to put it on either side of this asteroid as these areas are less traveled and less likely to be spotted. I think this is the common problem with hyperspace beacon for most people, you don't place it on the way to anything because you will just place it in the path most people will use to get there. You need to go to a spot that you don't normally go to for the sole purpose of placing the beacon.

And what you need to understand is that the OP sounds like a new pilot who often flies solo--in which case the reasons for taking Charged Plating (allowing Hyperspace Beacon, surviving against other Minelayers) may not be as relevant to the OP as they are to your ace team.

 

Hyperspace Beacon and Charged Plating are both powerful specialized components. But they both require a more advanced level of skill than most players (especially new ones) have.

 

With Hyperspace Beacon, you have to know when and where to place it, such that both it and you won't get destroyed, and such that it will actually get used by your team.

 

Charged Plating requires a keen knowledge of exactly which weapons in the game have armor piercing, as well as the ability to predict when to use its ability so as to maximize the protection it gives and not leave you vulnerable at the wrong 11 seconds.

 

For the average player (which the OP identifies himself as by the fact that he's using DF + Turbo), Overcharged + E2S Converter is probably going to give a more even and reliable experience. The guy needs to learn fundamentals, like how to avoid getting shot and which crew skills to use, before he starts worrying about expert defensive cooldown usage.

 

Once again you show your complete inability (or unwillingness) to put yourself in anyone else's shoes. The game (thank god) is not played by a bunch of you's. And even Drakolich, who is many times your better in every possible way, can conduct a civil conversation without resorting to petty insults and trolling.

 

That's like telling a new player to use LLC instead of BLC because it's easier to hit with. Gimping a player because he is new is the most horrible thing you can do.

Nemrus: "It's harder to use, so you shouldn't do it. because you're new, you should gimp yourself instead of trying to be better."

Hugs and kisses.

Edited July 14, 2014 by phoenixjon

So I have a problem with your list of weapons Nemarus, on paper those weapons do have armor pen and technically do weaken charged platings usefullness, the problem however is that more then half of those weapons specifically HLC's, Rocket Pods, Thermite torpedo and to some extent concussion and railgun sentry are all negated by good defensive bomber play. By defensive play i mean line of sighting all of these weapons. Railgun sentry drones are easily destroyed by just dropping mines on them if they are on the node or line of sighting them. BLC's and Slug railgun are the ones that are really hard to avoid, however the ships that have BLC's are very weak to mines so using your mines effectively vs them is important. If there is only 1 gunship then its easily line of sighted.

 

However while line of sighting all these things the one thing you cant deal with are other mines, which is what charged plating is there for. You can focus 100% of your attention on the things shooting at you instead of trying to not run into mines. Where as with Overcharged not only is it hard to get your shields back, but you are effectively lowered the amount of space for los ing you have to work with, because you have to avoid the other bombers mines.

 

Now when playing in a team environment bringing charged plating and a healing ship like an imperium/clarion is just ridiculously good. That's when this build truly shines.

 

Now you talked about how hyperspace beacon is only good if you have 2 of them, where I think they are more useful if you have 2, beacon positioning is really important. You never want the beacon actually on the node, or in any high traffic area. For example putting a beacon between A and B in lost shipyards in the center of the asteroid sounds like a good idea but its actually a very bad location, its much better to put it on either side of this asteroid as these areas are less traveled and less likely to be spotted. I think this is the common problem with hyperspace beacon for most people, you don't place it on the way to anything because you will just place it in the path most people will use to get there. You need to go to a spot that you don't normally go to for the sole purpose of placing the beacon.

 

Good points, though I think canny opposition can bring HLC's and BLC's to bear against Bombers more than you might think. Two Strikes pincing with HLC's from top and bottom give the Bomber few places to hide.

 

I know that on my Jurgoran, I have no problem Slugging a Bomber from range, then swooping under the fins and finishing off with BLC's. The target will die faster with Charged Plating than he will with Overcharged (then again, he'll likely die either way). At worst, I might eat a Seismic to the face.

 

As for mines, you're still at risk of getting hit by a volley (or more rarely, two) of them during Charged Plating's downtime. And if that happens, you'll take some hull damage from Concussion/Interdiction that you otherwise wouldn't have taken if you were rocking Overcharged. Of course you'll last longer against mines with Charged Plating, but depending on the rest of the enemy team, you might be taking more bleedthrough damage.

 

I think it's a hard call to make in a vaccuum. I think it really depends on what your allies are running and what you're opposition is running, and what kind of playstyle you want. Even Stasie's guide, while it prefers Charged Plating, calls out the OC+E2S as "another popular variant".

 

Hopefully the OP has enough information to go off and start experimenting and making up his own mind.

Edited July 14, 2014 by Nemarus

And what you need to understand is that the OP sounds like a new pilot who often flies solo--in which case the reasons for taking Charged Plating (allowing Hyperspace Beacon, surviving against other Minelayers) may not be as relevant to the OP as they are to your ace team.

 

Hyperspace Beacon and Charged Plating are both powerful specialized components. But they both require a more advanced level of skill than most players (especially new ones) have.

 

With Hyperspace Beacon, you have to know when and where to place it, such that both it and you won't get destroyed, and such that it will actually get used by your team.

 

Charged Plating requires a keen knowledge of exactly which weapons in the game have armor piercing, as well as the ability to predict when to use its ability so as to maximize the protection it gives and not leave you vulnerable at the wrong 11 seconds.

 

For the average player (which the OP identifies himself as by the fact that he's using DF + Turbo), Overcharged + E2S Converter is probably going to give a more even and reliable experience. The guy needs to learn fundamentals, like how to avoid getting shot and which crew skills to use, before he starts worrying about expert defensive cooldown usage.

 

 

Alright so first thing, I actually don't think the OP is new because he says he has both mastered and completed ships that is a lot of time invested to consider him new to the game. He does have some component choices I don't agree with but for the most part he already knows what hes doing.

 

From there I'm going to 100% agree with you that overcharged + shield power converter is WAY easier to play. You don't need any knowledge of what your enemies are flying or how to place beacons, it's a way more new player friendly ship and I think most should probably learn bomber on this overcharged build. I do think however that once you understand all the weapons and can identify them and also know how to los properly on a bomber that charged plating + beacon is more powerful when used properly.

 

So if all you are trying to say is that for newer players overcharged is easier to learn on and isn't as powerful when played at the top levels of the game, I think we can stop this discussion right here.

 

Gunsheep may have been a little abrasive about it, but I do think that a player like you that does know all of said weapons and understands how to los would be better off with the plating/beacon build.

I think server GSF population probably plays a big role in the comparative viability of the two builds.

 

On the higher population more competitive servers shields are going to suffer a bit, or maybe even a lot depending on who is queuing, compared to a charged plating build.

 

On the, "Outer Rim," servers where the SIM bomber and it's descendants are extremely rare as are support ships that use their hull repair abilities to repair allies, the overcharged shield build starts to look a lot better.

 

 

On a side note, I haven't ever noticed that HLCs and rocket pods are easier to LOS than slug or BLCs. If you're talking about annoying the heck out of the pilot by forcing them to either burn a lot of gas to maintain ideal range or to force them to have very good aim or suffer from accuracy penalties, that's another matter. Getting the attacker out of their comfort zone as far as weapons employment range goes isn't quite the same thing as LOSing though.

Alright so first thing, I actually don't think the OP is new because he says he has both mastered and completed ships that is a lot of time invested to consider him new to the game. He does have some component choices I don't agree with but for the most part he already knows what hes doing.

 

From there I'm going to 100% agree with you that overcharged + shield power converter is WAY easier to play. You don't need any knowledge of what your enemies are flying or how to place beacons, it's a way more new player friendly ship and I think most should probably learn bomber on this overcharged build. I do think however that once you understand all the weapons and can identify them and also know how to los properly on a bomber that charged plating + beacon is more powerful when used properly.

 

So if all you are trying to say is that for newer players overcharged is easier to learn on and isn't as powerful when played at the top levels of the game, I think we can stop this discussion right here.

 

Gunsheep may have been a little abrasive about it, but I do think that a player like you that does know all of said weapons and understands how to los would be better off with the plating/beacon build.

 

Oh, I definitely agree that Hyperspace Bacon, when used as part of a team that knows how to use it well, is amazingly powerful in Domination. And as you earlier noted, without E2S, you pretty much have to take Charged Plating.

 

Even without Bacon, CP is obviously superior in a Bomber heavy environment.

 

I think server GSF population probably plays a big role in the comparative viability of the two builds.

 

I think this is true. Early after 2.6, when TEH had only me and two others flying SIM's, we all used Overcharged + E2S, because the only Bomber opposition we faced came mostly in the form of Dronecarriers, or clueless Minelayers using Concussion + Seekers. Otherwise we were more worried about Gunships.

 

In my opinion, the more common Minelayers are on a server, the more beneficial Charged Plating is. The fewer Bombers on a server, the more beneficial the Overcharged build is.

 

Once the SIM "secret" got out (dat farce post), and SIM's were all over the place, I switched my Razorwire to Charged Plating to get an edge on the other SIM's.

 

But over time, even before 2.8, the Minelayer population on TEH was starting to lessen. The threat that SIM's represented became well-known, and that made all Minelayers very high priority targets. The server aces generally got better at intercepting Minelayers before they got on nodes.

 

A lot of solo/average pilots stopped playing them simply because they didn't want to get focused to death by the aces. And with fewer competing Minelayers to worry about, the few Minelayers found themselves needing protection against everything else. That tilts the pendulum slightly back toward Overcharged.

 

2.8 further lessened the ubiquity of Minelayers on TEH. With Interdiction Mine losing its shield piercing, a SIM could no longer vaporize the other classes of ships so easily. And the mine AOE/LOS change, which caught us all by surprise, massively reduced the multiplicative damage capacity of a single Minelayer.

 

As well, the additional snares in play (more Interdiction Drones, Ion Railgun Snare, Interdiction Missile snare) also make it harder for Bombers to LOS so easily as they used tol, leaving them more vulnerable to HLC's, Slugs and Rocket Pods.

 

Combine that with a new Bomber variant, and the end result was that 2.8 massively reduced the amount of Minelayers in play (compared to the "farce" peak ). This (in my opinion, on my server) has swung the pendulum back toward Overcharged Shields somewhat (for Minelayers only--Dronecarriers are still best served with Repair Probes, and T3's obviously must take Power Dive, so don't get E2S Converter to support Overcharged).

 

Once the new ships are all mastered and people settle on their "final 5" we may see Minelayers come back to prominence on TEH, and broader smart use of Hyperspace Beacon. In that case, I would certainly recommend Charged Plating more broadly.

 

But again, my recommendations are all colored by how things are on my server. It could be entirely different on other servers--in fact I'd expect it to be. Bombers beget Bombers.

Edited July 14, 2014 by Nemarus

I agree Nemrus. You should broaden your horizons and play other servers. Roll on Bastion and let me know when you do, I'll help you play the meta.. errr... I mean... play for how our server is.

While this thread did get a bit violent, Nem def. provoked it.

 

In general, all the bomber options are available and kind of mediocre on the Razorwire. I recommend charged plating for the reasons drako says- you should be able to effortlessly LOS almost all forms of armor piercing damage. This becomes much easier when you realize that so many targets won't be able to hurt you at all. Obviously a multiplayer pincer with gunships will end you, but heavy leasers are no real threat (anyone shooting at you with heavies, YOU should shoot at with heavies), and the big threat of BLCs can be minimized by your own mines. Railguns you have to LOS, but they will still be the biggest threat, as they deny you movement.

 

Overcharged is ok, but it's very frustrating to regenerate your shields, and you have no defense against the shield ignoring weapons such as enemy mines.

 

I like concussions a decent amount, but understand that the lack of interdiction mines means that you can't just focus an enemy who is snared- your mines have to do EVERYTHING. That's a lot to ask. Consider interdiction at some point.

 

Stasie's guide which is linked to in thread is pretty much where you should go for build advice. Stasie talks with top pilots on many servers and the guide is updated with good builds. It's also a pretty big resource, and reasonably complete- it's certainly the best player created guide, and easily the best thread on the forum.

 

You were also scolded for using light lasers. I do find them much more effective versus scouts on nodes, but I really don't think that's worth giving up the ranged, shield piercing, and armor ignore of heavies. You can still kill a turret decently fast, but I'd recommend the heavies.

 

 

With your Sting, check your accuracy at the end of the match. What numbers do you normally see? What ranges do you normally fire at? Those are pretty common problems even among players that have been around a bit.

 

 

 

 

 

 

So, you can switch to the proper Razorwire or continue running the deviant (the fact that you have so few components in common with the top bombers is hurting you, but it isn't the end of the world). But do remember this:

 

 

1)- Each mine you deploy only has a few decent spots to land. It goes back a bit from your bomberbutt, so learn to place mines such that they can actually explode into a decent section of the satellite. If possible, each mine should threaten half the satellite.

2)- When being attacked, try to juke such that your mine will shoot off in a direction besides directly behind you. This can prevent enemies from getting free gibs on mines. If your opponents are switching to mines, that's much better than them staying on you.

3)- Try very hard to pool energy so that you have it when you need it.

 

 

Also in general:

1)- Enemy scouts have subtle noises when they pop cooldowns, and if you are close enough and targeting them you will see stuff.

2)- When enemies come close, it is reasonable to play helpless or unaware until they are commited, then boost hard and cooldown hard.

3)- It's expensive on your engines, but if you boost and stop boosting, boost and stop boosting, all while picking different vectors, your enemies will have a hard time landing many shots on you. The devs understood the effectiveness of this, and you'll be quite a bit of engine power activating your engines many times- but still mostly worth it.

Thank you everybody for your very useful comments. I play on the Harbinger and Jedi Covenant in the past under several call signs Roundup, Solless , Ka'Boom and several others. I'm currently building up the new scouts and SF. I solo queue mostly due to the odd hours I keep and there isn't a lot of guild members playing GSF during the hours I keep. My question was solo kills and solo kills alone. I'm very aware of my space in battle and the kills I'm talking about are not double teams. On the other hand I have unloaded fully charged burst lasers and rockets into the same pilots and I'm unable to solo kill them. Two pilots in peculiar one flies a Quarrel and the other flies a Clarion. I've attempted to double team the guy in the Quarrel and was still unable to kill him. The Clarion guy within 3 seconds or less is able to solo kill every ship I own but I have solo killed him 2 or 3 times with my gunship but not with anything else. I not the best pilot and I prefer bombers since my scout on scout hit % sucks but its pretty good when I'm hunting gunships using a strafing or hit and run tactics. I prefer going against the better pilots and the heavy defended sats so my numbers are usually low or bad. Thanks again for your comments.

did any one here bother to do the math on the effective overall strength of charged plating versus the weapons it is "weak" against.

 

Overcharge shields with all the + capacity taken set to blue total health (Shields + hull)

 

5000 (3000 per arc) regen rate 30 per second after 6 seconds.

 

It would take burst laser cannons doing an average of 500 damage a shot 10 shots to bring this target down vs

 

Charged plating same set up power to shields (shields+ hull strength taking into account if hull drops to 0 before shields do)

 

4880 (2880 per arc) 20% bleed through with burst lasers at 500 damage means 100 damage per shot gets through 400 being done to shields 7 and a partial required to drop shields, 700 damage done to hull..... hull still intact... shields fail before hull fails 10 shots taken to bring down full to dead number of shots = to Overcharge. Regen rate 75 per second after 6 seconds.

Overall damage taken, it is possible with regen that a charged plating build can take more punishment from BLC scout then a Overcharge one. Another potential build would be the turbo reactor instead this will drop your max shields to start down to 2550 (4550 still requires 10 shots at average 500 a shot) when in blue BUT your regen delay will be a mere 2.4 seconds, allowing you to nearly always only take 20% of the damage of a shot to your hull allowing your shields to absorb the large brunt while you heal with hydro spanner, if an allied healer is around lasting much much longer while fearing nothing from mines.

 

This is true for most every weapon with armor piercing save for Railgun and pods, pods being difficult to aim, and Rail guns you should be able to avoid for the most part (both enjoying 28% shield pierce I have yet to calculate if that drops hull before shields, but suffice to say these weapons ARE much more deadly for charged plating builds.)

 

Thus it is theoretically possible for Charged plating to preform as well against weapons it is "weak" against as overcharge shield, as well as preforming better against weapons it can very easily nullify.

 

Looking at this, its easy to see why some prefer charged plating, though it could potentially be challenging and never staying in some one's sights for very long is crucial to its success, as you wish to abuse both its DR for weapons the DR works against and the LARGE shields and good regen rate for weapons it doesnt work against to which as I just showed it isnt as vulnerable to as some may think.

 

 

Edit: adding in boths on use and potential combinations of engines and it becomes a bit more complicated, but suffice to say BOTH have their Merrits and even against weapons that are "strong" against charged plating, that percieved strength isnt exactly as high as some may believe.

 

 

Edit: also if calculations are correct Regen rate for when in "power to shields" for overcharge is 45 per second and for Charged plating its 112.5 per second a substantial difference. If we were to assume shields regened for 2 seconds in between each shot then overall shields to punch through for Over charge would require 2 more shot to finish ( original number of shots taken 10 90 regened in between each shot for a total of 900 a shot 2 shots at 500, with another 90 regened target is dead)... for charged plating about 10 (225 regened between each shot 10 shots originally required 2,250 shields regened, only 1000 hull damage taken if we continue hull will ultimately fail around the same time as shields) more shots as shields will fail around the same time hull does but overall shield strength do to regen is massively stronger causing far more shots neccisary in this situation, if we are to assume turbo reactor for Charged plating build it could be a full 20 shots as hull may fail before shields do, this is assuming no heals. Even if we were to assume on Use for Overcharge that would only increase number of shots by 1. Again this is against an average 500 damage a shot weapon with armor piercing... the thing Charged plating is supposed to be weak against... imagine when against what its strong against or imagine it fighting against clusters at the same time, that extra shield regen as well as DR will make a HUGE difference in the amount of overall punishment a Charged Plating build can take vs an Overcharged shield build, assuming you abuse Charged platings superior regen strength.

 

 

Disclaimer: just because I have demonstrated it good here doesnt mean its good on all ships all the time, different ships have different purposes and different strengths and weaknesses. I Just wanted to illustrate how even against an opponent that would have an "advantage" charged plating COULD be useful.

Edited July 15, 2014 by tunewalker

That is interesting, and I didn't really think of it.

 

 

In general, when I'm on a charged plating build, I view anything with armor piercing as just poison to keep away from. The fact that the charged plating's huge shields actually DO offer some pretty real protection versus them never really comes up in my head, because dangerous situations in a bomber often result in all my shields being zapped away in moments whilst I run around taking 99% less damage from most attacks and taking ALL THE DAMAGE from others.

 

So a BLC scout I boost away from a bunch. An enemy gunship who hasn't fired an awhile I'll assume isn't charging, so I'll consider that he can't hit me for more than about 800 as long as I get around fast enough. Heavy lasers just don't hit me unless I'm heavily snared or ludicrously outnumbered.

 

While with overcharged, I can't do ANYTHING like that. With overcharged, my whole thing is that I can take a railslug I don't see coming with minimal hull damage, and that a scout blasting in that I try to avoid (every scout, even type 3 and type 1, are a real threat, so I have to dodge everything, but a few shots don't matter).

 

Of all the different engines, I actually think they all are good. In a group, beacon is the best, and I'm willing to run it if no one else is bombing, but I actually prefer interdiction drive when possible. Shield to engine is the best way to refill an overcharged shield, of course.

 

Drako says that beacon is clutch on Denon, and he's absolutely right, but it's good everywhere.

Oh, I definitely agree that Hyperspace Bacon, when used as part of a team that knows how to use it well, is amazingly powerful in Domination. And as you earlier noted, without E2S, you pretty much have to take Charged Plating.

 

Even without Bacon, CP is obviously superior in a Bomber heavy environment.

I'm just curious, is that typo intentional or not? Because either way, it really got me thinking ...