To start off i would like to ask for help from all those who main concealment ( or are skilled enough to but chose not 2 cause its trash). The only explanation to the state of the spec is a lack of balance understanding by the team, and few are talking about it. We need to speak up. now to get to the thick of it.

Concealment operatives currently are by far the lowest parsing melee burst class in the game, and by a massive margin. Below i will be show the rank and specific number of dps on a dummy at the time of this post. Furthermore i ask all the concealment operatives out there to upload your raid parses to add to the information.

#1 deception / infiltration dps: 10589.22 player Der'ty

#2 carnage / combat dps: 10397.38 player: Xi'niri

#3 rage / focus dps: 10226.71 player: Kuro-sorrow

#4 Advanced prototype / tactics dps: 10191.08 Harry's Powertech

#5 concealment / scrapper dps: 9875.5 player Etchelon

In a second post on this thread i will be putting a detailed explanation why in my belief this problem is much larger than even the numbers there show. This will detail things such as Aoe capability target swapping punishment positional requirements offensive cooldowns and defensive cooldowns that increase dps. (spoiler: operative is by far the worst off)

One final note: As someone who has been a skilled operative for years and a Nightmare raid leader of two teams that have all bosses down. Currently there is only 1 spec in the game i consider to be non-viable without being heavily carried, and that is concealment operative. They are a liability in my opinion.

-Iris

yeah they really overdid it, it should have been like the Carnage nerf - appropriate. But no, let's just nuke the class cause it performs well if you stand behind a target and pewpew. Concealment only put out high dps when it was placed behind a target and could just do rotation, it's AoE was always lackluster if not plain non-existent, target switching on the harder side of burst specs (though easier than sustained), and positioning requirement too. Now it is a nuissance in PvP to troll players and kill bads. In PvE it is not worth it endgame. As an operative it was always a single-target specialty class.

Granted Deception is a bit overtuned now and deserves the carnage treatment I guess (not the Concealment nuke treatment). Why the heck are some things in the sustained rdps/ mdps burst category +300 of 10K and others @ -200 to -300???? Makes no sense.

It wasnt doing good dps even before this patch appeared

without all the constrainst of pve and pvp gameplay it was the 6th hightst dps class out of 18, and was the 3rd melee, above carnage and par with deception, according to banths charts.

without all the constrainst of pve and pvp gameplay it was the 6th hightst dps class out of 18, and was the 3rd melee, above carnage and par with deception, according to banths charts.

sure but as the op will point out in detail this does not take into account:

-positioning requirement (already more restrictive than carnage, or deception with front maul)

-target switching where you need to refresh dots (carnage and deception don'y have these problems)

that's just for PvE

in PvP you either do dps or you roll around/ use off heals while NOT doing dps

to sum up: concealment should actually be slightly ahead of carnage/deception to be properly balanced. at least the same, definately not bellow those.

without all the constrainst of pve and pvp gameplay it was the 6th hightst dps class out of 18, and was the 3rd melee, above carnage and par with deception, according to banths charts.

Yeah, if you consider only dumb parsley info. However, in real-life pvp, have you seen concealment opers in top dps list? No, i also didnt. Its energy management, low biggest crits, close-ranged abilities were not giving concealment to dps high. Yet bioware nerfed it even more :/ now no one is playing it, since it pulls really low dps.

To start off i would like to ask for help from all those who main concealment ( or are skilled enough to but chose not 2 cause its trash). The only explanation to the state of the spec is a lack of balance understanding by the team, and few are talking about it. We need to speak up. now to get to the thick of it.

 

Concealment operatives currently are by far the lowest parsing melee burst class in the game, and by a massive margin. Below i will be show the rank and specific number of dps on a dummy at the time of this post. Furthermore i ask all the concealment operatives out there to upload your raid parses to add to the information.

 

#1 deception / infiltration dps: 10589.22 player Der'ty

#2 carnage / combat dps: 10397.38 player: Xi'niri

#3 rage / focus dps: 10226.71 player: Kuro-sorrow

#4 Advanced prototype / tactics dps: 10191.08 Harry's Powertech

#5 concealment / scrapper dps: 9875.5 player Etchelon

 

In a second post on this thread i will be putting a detailed explanation why in my belief this problem is much larger than even the numbers there show. This will detail things such as Aoe capability target swapping punishment positional requirements offensive cooldowns and defensive cooldowns that increase dps. (spoiler: operative is by far the worst off)

 

One final note: As someone who has been a skilled operative for years and a Nightmare raid leader of two teams that have all bosses down. Currently there is only 1 spec in the game i consider to be non-viable without being heavily carried, and that is concealment operative. They are a liability in my opinion.

 

-Iris

Have you taken into account the self/off heals of the spec?

Mara/Sniper should be top spec DPS classes because of the absence of self heals.

Sin's although they have minor self heal ability it is only minor.

Jugs/Powertech have two great self heal buffs which help towards sustaining damage while lasting longer in a fight meaning more DPS output.

Operative/Sorcerer/Merc loads of off heals and little perks.

Mara/Sniper should be top spec DPS classes because of the absence of self heals.

Sin's although they have minor self heal ability it is only minor.

Jugs/Powertech have two great self heal buffs which help towards sustaining damage while lasting longer in a fight meaning more DPS output.

Operative/Sorcerer/Merc loads of off heals and little perks.

Think a little clarification needs to be done by your analysis of self heals.

Marauders do have a self heal utility, 1% max health every time a rage ability is activated, though agreed to be insignificant, especially in pvp.

Snipers on the other hand do have self heals to note. 2% max health every 3 seconds while in cover, combined with all of the ability to range, CC etc. makes the healing earned quite helpful. And the fact that snipers ballistic shield is a better kolto overload (non buffed) is definitely a major heal to survivability.

I would agree partially with the sin overcharge saber heal being minor, a 15K self heal with added 3K heals over time due to charge activations, but it can be a helpful burst heal.

Juggs Indeed have 2 great heal type abilities, endure pain being a 10 second last stand, and enraged defense heals (against dot classes/mobs) helps a lot for survival.

PTs have something else entirely going on however, kolto overload is almost useless to them at this point unless they take the utility that makes it a 2nd stun breaker, a simple vengeance jugg has enough dps alone to burn through it.

The lower damage capability of sorc and merc weren't because of access to self heals, it was more due to just being a ranged class, but off heals are more abundant to both of them than the other classes mentioned by having physical healing abilities.

Operatives actually own less healing than sorcs and mercs, but have the ability to not heal as often because their heals are healing them over time. But their ability to survive is mostly due to concealment roll immunity, and kiting.

Back to the main point though, concealment is pretty much in a bad shape. The nerf was a bit overboard, and personally a 15% nerf to collateral and acid blade would be more welcomed than an almost flat 30%. All comes down to the same thing though, pvp players complain about how concealment "Over performs" when in pve they were just fine as they were. And no one played concealment anyway because lethality was basically broken in damage CA spam. The dot spec literally played like a sub burst spec.

Have you taken into account the self/off heals of the spec?

 

Mara/Sniper should be top spec DPS classes because of the absence of self heals.

Sin's although they have minor self heal ability it is only minor.

Jugs/Powertech have two great self heal buffs which help towards sustaining damage while lasting longer in a fight meaning more DPS output.

Operative/Sorcerer/Merc loads of off heals and little perks.

Actually yes i have taken into account the self heal and survivability of operative, and if fact the evidence only serves to support my finding that their dps is much lower than it should be. let me explain

Dps survivability in regards to balance can be looked at in a multitude of ways. for the purpose of concealment we will focus on two clear differences.

Passive survivability: this includes passive stats like damage reduction and dodge chance while also including defensive cooldowns that are off the global cooldown and thus do not lower dps. I.E. evasion and shield probe

Active survivability: this includes things that can be used to help you survive longer but require the use of global cooldowns. I.E. kolto probe and roll

It is very important to make the distinction between these as one serves to severely lower your dps to gain survivability while the other allows you to maintain damage and survivablity.

Now in regards to concealment operatives out of all the melee dps classes they boast the least passive survivability. With only evasion shield probe and stim boost to go on top of medium armor. Now i could go into detail for every melee dps class but a cursory knowledge of them shows that their passive survivability is miles ahead of the limited stuff that operative has.

Now because they have such low passive survivability this means that they often times are forced to use global cooldowns to actively survive. Thankfully they boast the best capability to do this out of all the melee classes, but their is one MASSIVE downside to this. They loose dps. a hell of alot of dps. This fact is combined with the relization that in master mode operations you cant afford to sacrifice dps. Furthermore they are already the worst melee burst class in the game making it even more the case they cant afford to loose dps.

Well some of you are probably saying what about pvp. Well the same issue exists in any group fight scenario. They simply lack the capability to pressure the enemy team while also surviving themselves.

The only saving grace for concealment at all is 1v1 pvp. As in this against some classes you can strike a balance between using roll immunity to mitigate high damage enemy attacks and probes to heal yourself while attacking inbetween. However with the nerf to concealment's already poor dps in pvp they are simply outclassed by almost any good dps player simply due to the damage disparity. furthermore in general they simply lack the capability to kill a healer on their own.

T.L.D.R. yes i took their survivability into account and in fact it only serves to show that they are worse than a simple comparison of dps of classes shows.

Actually yes i have taken into account the self heal and survivability of operative, and if fact the evidence only serves to support my finding that their dps is much lower than it should be. let me explain

 

Dps survivability in regards to balance can be looked at in a multitude of ways. for the purpose of concealment we will focus on two clear differences.

 

Passive survivability: this includes passive stats like damage reduction and dodge chance while also including defensive cooldowns that are off the global cooldown and thus do not lower dps. I.E. evasion and shield probe

 

Active survivability: this includes things that can be used to help you survive longer but require the use of global cooldowns. I.E. kolto probe and roll

 

It is very important to make the distinction between these as one serves to severely lower your dps to gain survivability while the other allows you to maintain damage and survivablity.

 

Now in regards to concealment operatives out of all the melee dps classes they boast the least passive survivability. With only evasion shield probe and stim boost to go on top of medium armor. Now i could go into detail for every melee dps class but a cursory knowledge of them shows that their passive survivability is miles ahead of the limited stuff that operative has.

 

Now because they have such low passive survivability this means that they often times are forced to use global cooldowns to actively survive. Thankfully they boast the best capability to do this out of all the melee classes, but their is one MASSIVE downside to this. They loose dps. a hell of alot of dps. This fact is combined with the relization that in master mode operations you cant afford to sacrifice dps. Furthermore they are already the worst melee burst class in the game making it even more the case they cant afford to loose dps.

 

Well some of you are probably saying what about pvp. Well the same issue exists in any group fight scenario. They simply lack the capability to pressure the enemy team while also surviving themselves.

 

The only saving grace for concealment at all is 1v1 pvp. As in this against some classes you can strike a balance between using roll immunity to mitigate high damage enemy attacks and probes to heal yourself while attacking inbetween. However with the nerf to concealment's already poor dps in pvp they are simply outclassed by almost any good dps player simply due to the damage disparity. furthermore in general they simply lack the capability to kill a healer on their own.

 

T.L.D.R. yes i took their survivability into account and in fact it only serves to show that they are worse than a simple comparison of dps of classes shows.

Let's answer this right?

1) Operatives,Sorcerers and Mercenaries are suppose to be if anything a healing class first and foremost and DPS second.

2) Juggernauts,Assassins and Powertech are suppose to be if anything a tank class first and foremost and DPS second. (Reason for slight DPS increase is because being a tank you're always on the target and nothing else priority. Also already stated the ability difference when you notice Shielding Probe, Kolto Infusion, Kolto Probe, Combat Res and Diagnostic Scan.)

3) Marauders and Snipers is a DPS class regardless with lack of these features that are beneficial to each spec.

So let me answer you this you want operatives who are a close range spec do the same amount of damage as say a Marauder because by the sounds of it you sure right do and if that is the case then you might as well give Marauders the same self heals as Juggernauts and Snipers the same self heals as Operatives?

Because this is the same common sense.

I play as a Marauder first and foremost which I expect to hit harder than any other spec in the game period.

Because it takes skill to survive and output DPS.

Snipers should be slightly lower as for them not needing to be in enemies range and not having to jump into close quarters with a risk of being swarmed.

Mara/Sniper should be top spec DPS classes because of the absence of self heals.

Sin's although they have minor self heal ability it is only minor.

Jugs/Powertech have two great self heal buffs which help towards sustaining damage while lasting longer in a fight meaning more DPS output.

Operative/Sorcerer/Merc loads of off heals and little perks.

Think a little clarification needs to be done by your analysis of self heals.

Marauders do have a self heal utility, 1% max health every time a rage ability is activated, though agreed to be insignificant, especially in pvp.

Snipers on the other hand do have self heals to note. 2% max health every 3 seconds while in cover, combined with all of the ability to range, CC etc. makes the healing earned quite helpful. And the fact that snipers ballistic shield is a better kolto overload (non buffed) is definitely a major heal to survivability.

I would agree partially with the sin overcharge saber heal being minor, a 15K self heal with added 3K heals over time due to charge activations, but it can be a helpful burst heal.

Juggs Indeed have 2 great heal type abilities, endure pain being a 10 second last stand, and enraged defense heals (against dot classes/mobs) helps a lot for survival.

PTs have something else entirely going on however, kolto overload is almost useless to them at this point unless they take the utility that makes it a 2nd stun breaker, a simple vengeance jugg has enough dps alone to burn through it.

The lower damage capability of sorc and merc weren't because of access to self heals, it was more due to just being a ranged class, but off heals are more abundant to both of them than the other classes mentioned by having physical healing abilities.

Operatives actually own less healing than sorcs and mercs, but have the ability to not heal as often because their heals are healing them over time. But their ability to survive is mostly due to concealment roll immunity, and kiting.

Back to the main point though, concealment is pretty much in a bad shape. The nerf was a bit overboard, and personally a 15% nerf to collateral and acid blade would be more welcomed than an almost flat 30%. All comes down to the same thing though, pvp players complain about how concealment "Over performs" when in pve they were just fine as they were. And no one played concealment anyway because lethality was basically broken in damage CA spam. The dot spec literally played like a sub burst spec.

Read my post before and I have answered all you've disputed.

Let's answer this right?

1) Operatives,Sorcerers and Mercenaries are suppose to be if anything a healing class first and foremost and DPS second.

2) Juggernauts,Assassins and Powertech are suppose to be if anything a tank class first and foremost and DPS second. (Reason for slight DPS increase is because being a tank you're always on the target and nothing else priority. Also already stated the ability difference when you notice Shielding Probe, Kolto Infusion, Kolto Probe, Combat Res and Diagnostic Scan.)

3) Marauders and Snipers is a DPS class regardless with lack of these features that are beneficial to each spec.

 

So let me answer you this you want operatives who are a close range spec do the same amount of damage as say a Marauder because by the sounds of it you sure right do and if that is the case then you might as well give Marauders the same self heals as Juggernauts and Snipers the same self heals as Operatives?

Because this is the same common sense.

I play as a Marauder first and foremost which I expect to hit harder than any other spec in the game period.

Because it takes skill to survive and output DPS.

Snipers should be slightly lower as for them not needing to be in enemies range and not having to jump into close quarters with a risk of being swarmed.

You seem to be approaching this from the wrong angle. It's not because people want DPS to be balanced that they want every class to have the same perks. But let's start from the top.

Merc/Sorc/Op are not more "First and foremost" healers and secondary DPS. They can do one or the other. Same goes for PT/Jugg/Sin. Their capacity to do another role should not make them less efficient at being a DPS other than having one less spec to choose from (which is a decent plus side to maras and snipers). General DPS output should be balanced, but that doesn't mean everything should be the same. Apart from the obvious different DPS rotations that make every spec have strengths and weaknesses, each class brings different utility. It is not because Snipers and Maras can only DPS that they bring less utility to a group. Among other things, Marauders bring predation, bloodthirst and obfuscate that are unique (even group heals in annihilation) and snipers bring the big shield and diversion. Other classes bring different things between offheals, taunt, stealth rez, combat rez, other raid buffs, etc.

This is what makes the game fun, every class has some unique advantages, and you gain when bringing different classes in a operation or PVP match. But DPS output stays and will always stay the most important thing a DPS can bring to a group, and if a spec is really bad at it, then it loses its point. That's what this thread is all about, concealment losing its interest in a competitive environment not because of lack of utilities but because it can't do its role (which is "first and foremost" kill things fast).

I think the greatest difference between dps on different classes is performance not the "potential dps output".

I've seen juggs doing more than 6 mil damage and juggs not able to do more than a few 100k.

Marauders doing more than 5 mil damage and marauders not able to do more than 400k.

Even sorcs after nerf can do 5 mil and more damage if they know how to kite and use their head.

Insert any other class here

Same applies to merc heals or sorc heals - as it is I mostly am doing the most hps in almost every match, but occasionally there is a merc or sorc who is able to do 5 - 6 mil healing which puts them slightly ahead of me.

(which is weird because I'm quite decent and op healing seems to have "the best" hps output there is - so i should be able to outheal even people who are better than me (I just know that line will be used against me ))

I've come to realize that people who are decent enough hardly ever complain about "unfair dps/hps performing classes" but find a way to be better than everybody else and obviously it works and is possible to do so. Even after countless nerfes.

So maybe you should stop wasting your time here and try to get your keybinds/UI right for you so you can do so too xP

Let's answer this right?

1) Operatives,Sorcerers and Mercenaries are suppose to be if anything a healing class first and foremost and DPS second.

2) Juggernauts,Assassins and Powertech are suppose to be if anything a tank class first and foremost and DPS second. (Reason for slight DPS increase is because being a tank you're always on the target and nothing else priority. Also already stated the ability difference when you notice Shielding Probe, Kolto Infusion, Kolto Probe, Combat Res and Diagnostic Scan.)

3) Marauders and Snipers is a DPS class regardless with lack of these features that are beneficial to each spec.

 

So let me answer you this you want operatives who are a close range spec do the same amount of damage as say a Marauder because by the sounds of it you sure right do and if that is the case then you might as well give Marauders the same self heals as Juggernauts and Snipers the same self heals as Operatives?

Because this is the same common sense.

I play as a Marauder first and foremost which I expect to hit harder than any other spec in the game period.

Because it takes skill to survive and output DPS.

Snipers should be slightly lower as for them not needing to be in enemies range and not having to jump into close quarters with a risk of being swarmed.

Your logic makes no sense. Of course i want operatives to do as much damage as marauders at least. why? because operatives rotation is HIGHLY inferior to marauders in every way. Target swapping, aoe, resource management, penalties for downtime, capability to avoid downtime, positional requirement, the list goes on. The sad thing is that even if an operative was capable of sustaining MORE dps there would still be no reason to choose it over a marauder in a operation. Because 100% uptime dps capability does not = real world dps. Furthermore if you think that an operative has better survivability than a marauder, without the operative sacrificing OVER HALF of its dps time doing active mitigation then you dont know the classes. but heres the thing.... you CANT afford to sacrifice dps like that. If you think you can then you should seek to inform yourself better on the reality of master mode operations and ranked pvp.

But DPS output stays and will always stay the most important thing a DPS can bring to a group, and if a spec is really bad at it, then it loses its point. That's what this thread is all about, concealment losing its interest in a competitive environment not because of lack of utilities but because it can't do its role (which is "first and foremost" kill things fast).

well put

You seem to be approaching this from the wrong angle. It's not because people want DPS to be balanced that they want every class to have the same perks. But let's start from the top.

 

Merc/Sorc/Op are not more "First and foremost" healers and secondary DPS. They can do one or the other. Same goes for PT/Jugg/Sin. Their capacity to do another role should not make them less efficient at being a DPS other than having one less spec to choose from (which is a decent plus side to maras and snipers). General DPS output should be balanced, but that doesn't mean everything should be the same. Apart from the obvious different DPS rotations that make every spec have strengths and weaknesses, each class brings different utility. It is not because Snipers and Maras can only DPS that they bring less utility to a group. Among other things, Marauders bring predation, bloodthirst and obfuscate that are unique (even group heals in annihilation) and snipers bring the big shield and diversion. Other classes bring different things between offheals, taunt, stealth rez, combat rez, other raid buffs, etc.

 

This is what makes the game fun, every class has some unique advantages, and you gain when bringing different classes in a operation or PVP match. But DPS output stays and will always stay the most important thing a DPS can bring to a group, and if a spec is really bad at it, then it loses its point. That's what this thread is all about, concealment losing its interest in a competitive environment not because of lack of utilities but because it can't do its role (which is "first and foremost" kill things fast).

No I am approaching it from the right angle because balance means balance regardless and in balance one can't opt for more yet leave the other with less.

So balance is if another class can output the same DPS as we can it will make us inferior because that won't be balance.

Having more benefits and the same DPS output is not balance.

Your logic makes no sense. Of course i want operatives to do as much damage as marauders at least. why? because operatives rotation is HIGHLY inferior to marauders in every way. Target swapping, aoe, resource management, penalties for downtime, capability to avoid downtime, positional requirement, the list goes on. The sad thing is that even if an operative was capable of sustaining MORE dps there would still be no reason to choose it over a marauder in a operation. Because 100% uptime dps capability does not = real world dps. Furthermore if you think that an operative has better survivability than a marauder, without the operative sacrificing OVER HALF of its dps time doing active mitigation then you dont know the classes. but heres the thing.... you CANT afford to sacrifice dps like that. If you think you can then you should seek to inform yourself better on the reality of master mode operations and ranked pvp.

Wait there treacle if I make no sense then what about this line "Of course I want Operatives to do as much damage as Marauders at least." Of course and at least is the key words here.

So 'Of course you want your spec to output as much damage as an all out DPS spec at least.'

Meaning you'd would prefer it do more now explain to me where's the sense in that?

More or less if you had your way you'd be the highest parsing DPS spec in the game.

Now let's hold it there if you want to parse higher play an actual DPS spec not a hybrid DPS because that's what Operatives, Sorcerers and Mercenaries are no matter how much you like it that's what it is.

Same goes for Juggernauts, Powertechs and Assassins they're a hybrid DPS spec.

No matter how many of you want to argue that is the truth you wanted to know.

Wait there treacle if I make no sense then what about this line "Of course I want Operatives to do as much damage as Marauders at least." Of course and at least is the key words here.

 

So 'Of course you want your spec to output as much damage as an all out DPS spec at least.'

Meaning you'd would prefer it do more now explain to me where's the sense in that?

More or less if you had your way you'd be the highest parsing DPS spec in the game.

Now let's hold it there if you want to parse higher play an actual DPS spec not a hybrid DPS because that's what Operatives, Sorcerers and Mercenaries are no matter how much you like it that's what it is.

Same goes for Juggernauts, Powertechs and Assassins they're a hybrid DPS spec.

 

No matter how many of you want to argue that is the truth you wanted to know.

Scrappers and Sawbones are DPS specs, not "hybrid" specs. Sawbones is a heal spec - with notably weak af DPS capabilities.

Balance and Telekinetics are DPS specs, not "hybrid" specs. Seer is a heal spec - also piss-poor DPS performance.

You balance the 24 specs and their mirrors - not the 8 advanced classes. Sentinels and Gunslingers should not have their DPS specs doing more damage than any other DPS spec solely because the advanced classes don't fulfill any other roles. In DPS capabilities, Scrapper should match Combat. Ruffian should match Watchman - and so should Serenity and Vigilance.

None of the four specs listed in that last sentence should individually be "highest DPS" - they should all match each other at 5% over the neutral DPS target, as stated by Bioware. Scrapper, Combat, Infiltration, and Focus should all be exactly at the neutral DPS target, again, as stated by Bioware.

Scrappers and Sawbones are DPS specs, not "hybrid" specs. Sawbones is a heal spec - with notably weak af DPS capabilities.

 

Balance and Telekinetics are DPS specs, not "hybrid" specs. Seer is a heal spec - also piss-poor DPS performance.

 

You balance the 24 specs and their mirrors - not the 8 advanced classes. Sentinels and Gunslingers should not have their DPS specs doing more damage than any other DPS spec solely because the advanced classes don't fulfill any other roles. In DPS capabilities, Scrapper should match Combat. Ruffian should match Watchman - and so should Serenity and Vigilance.

 

None of the four specs listed in that last sentence should individually be "highest DPS" - they should all match each other at 5% over the neutral DPS target, as stated by Bioware. Scrapper, Combat, Infiltration, and Focus should all be exactly at the neutral DPS target, again, as stated by Bioware.

Explain to me what a hybrid is? A hybrid is a cross spec meaning it can and has the proficiency to preform in places where other specs can't.

I feel as if I am going around in circles take your rose tinted goggles off.

Actual DPS specs not hybrids are Snipers and Marauders (Imp) Gunslingers and Jedi Sentient (Rep) they can not do anything but DPS they're locked in.

(They should be the highest parsing DPS for range and melee regardless.)

Look stop trying to make an argument over the fact that you feel hard done by if that is the case move on, try a different spec or maybe become a healer we could do with more of them! haha

Explain to me what a hybrid is? A hybrid is a cross spec meaning it can and has the proficiency to preform in places where other specs can't.

I feel as if I am going around in circles take your rose tinted goggles off.

Actual DPS specs not hybrids are Snipers and Marauders (Imp) Gunslingers and Jedi Sentient (Rep) they can not do anything but DPS they're locked in.

(They should be the highest parsing DPS for range and melee regardless.)

Look stop trying to make an argument over the fact that you feel hard done by if that is the case move on, try a different spec or maybe become a healer we could do with more of them! haha

Once again, all i can read from your posts is: im a marauder and i want to be the highest parsing class in this game because reasons.

The fact concealement op got a nerf, the concerns of players are well adressed. While marauder gets 2 specs viable for almost all PvE content (close to 99% if i dare may say - only thinking in droids phase of brontes anni could fail, but even so), operative lethality and concealment, are in a somehow "interesting" situation due to the dotting nature of one, and the significant loss of dps of the other.

And while on PvP lethality is, well, a fluffy number class, concealment can be a significant pain in the ***, because its a "trolling" class, due to its many perks, marauders thou are in a good position aswell. The problem i see these days its that players dont accept the fact one player can stall 2 or even 3 others from getting an objective, but thats what makes the game and specific classes so fun to play. All classes have their ups and downs.

And some classes are more viable in pvp then others - it has always been like that.

But one thing will never change: bad players will be bad, and good players will alwasy have the upper hand.

so stop only thinking about your class, or me me me, because the concerns for concealement are valid.

Once again, all i can read from your posts is: im a marauder and i want to be the highest parsing class in this game because reasons.

 

The fact concealement op got a nerf, the concerns of players are well adressed. While marauder gets 2 specs viable for almost all PvE content (close to 99% if i dare may say - only thinking in droids phase of brontes anni could fail, but even so), operative lethality and concealment, are in a somehow "interesting" situation due to the dotting nature of one, and the significant loss of dps of the other.

 

And while on PvP lethality is, well, a fluffy number class, concealment can be a significant pain in the ***, because its a "trolling" class, due to its many perks, marauders thou are in a good position aswell. The problem i see these days its that players dont accept the fact one player can stall 2 or even 3 others from getting an objective, but thats what makes the game and specific classes so fun to play. All classes have their ups and downs.

 

And some classes are more viable in pvp then others - it has always been like that.

 

But one thing will never change: bad players will be bad, and good players will alwasy have the upper hand.

 

so stop only thinking about your class, or me me me, because the concerns for concealement are valid.

Stop spitting out your dummy.

I play all specs.

I have in total:-

4 Sith Warriors (2 Marauders Fury/Carnage) (2 Juggernauts Immortal/Rage)

3 Sith Inquisitors (2 Assassins Darkness/Deception) (1 Sorcerer Lightning) Thinking to make another as a healer.

2 Bounty Hunters (1 Mercenary Arsenal) (1 Powertech Shield Tech)

3 Imperial Agents (1 Sniper Virulence) (2 Operatives Concealment/Medicine)

So I am not bias to one spec because I love playing all specs my favourite has to be Immortal and Lightning.

Before you say what about Republic I have 5 characters which I don't pay any attention to because I am all for the Empire.

The only reason I favour my Fury Marauder most is because I play PVP and I use Immortal for PVP also.

The rest I use mostly for PVE or story content when I am bored.

So before you say that Marauders parsing bla bla you realise I play with on a daily basis a PVP spec which most deem the lowest parsing spec out of the three.

Annihilation is the highest although I understand why. When I tried it out it felt really bland and I absolutely hated playing it.

Carnage I like very much high DPS but not viable for the content I play.

No I am approaching it from the right angle because balance means balance regardless and in balance one can't opt for more yet leave the other with less.

So balance is if another class can output the same DPS as we can it will make us inferior because that won't be balance.

Having more benefits and the same DPS output is not balance.

Dunno if you read what I was saying apart from the first sentence... Sure doesn't look like it. What I am saying is: Marauders and Sniper do NOT have less benefits than Operatives or any other classes that can do more than one role. They have different ones. In some situations, operatives will be better suited, in others, marauders or any other class.

Also in a meta like this game where it's the same abilities for PVE and PVP, they have no choice but to have similar DPS outputs for similar specs because of PVE reasons (by similar specs I mean the classification they make between burst/sustain/melee/range). Then they have to balance the other benefits, such as heals/group utility/defensives/movement buffs and debuffs and many other things for PVP.

This is getting off-topic and I can't really talk about the operative nerfs cause I didn't really experience them, so I will stop there. I just hate to see when people say since mara and sniper can only DPS then they should have better numbers. This is not true. They have one more DPS spec so they can adapt better (especially since half the time one spec of each class if effed up so still being able to choose between two is nice) and they both have a bunch of really useful group utilities that make them nearly irreplaceable in raid groups.

Dunno if you read what I was saying apart from the first sentence... Sure doesn't look like it. What I am saying is: Marauders and Sniper do NOT have less benefits than Operatives or any other classes that can do more than one role. They have different ones. In some situations, operatives will be better suited, in others, marauders or any other class.

 

Also in a meta like this game where it's the same abilities for PVE and PVP, they have no choice but to have similar DPS outputs for similar specs because of PVE reasons (by similar specs I mean the classification they make between burst/sustain/melee/range). Then they have to balance the other benefits, such as heals/group utility/defensives/movement buffs and debuffs and many other things for PVP.

 

This is getting off-topic and I can't really talk about the operative nerfs cause I didn't really experience them, so I will stop there. I just hate to see when people say since mara and sniper can only DPS then they should have better numbers. This is not true. They have one more DPS spec so they can adapt better (especially since half the time one spec of each class if effed up so still being able to choose between two is nice) and they both have a bunch of really useful group utilities that make them nearly irreplaceable in raid groups.

Bioware devs have officially stated that the true melee DPS is Marauders and range DPS is Sniper (Insert mirror classes here) that is why the DPS is higher they will always be top parsing.

I don't need to explain what specs parse the highest because I assume everyone should know by now. Hint (DoT)

Of course they have less benefits because there is dead spots 'examples' We can't off tank if a tank dies or leaves or we can't off heal when healer dies or leaves.

You hate it because it is the truth. Snipers and Marauders will always be the only true DPS spec.

I'll say it again I had no problem with any so called nerf whether it was Sorcerer, Operative or Mercenary. I can play the spec I can play the same spec afterwards.

If you think this suppose nerf is bad try playing two Marauders at the same time and having no choice either switch to Annihilation or stop playing because they super nerfed Carnage and nerfed Furys Smash. Although I tried Annihilation but didn't like it so I had to grin and bare it and that's how I found out I could play with whatever they throw at me.

(The only thing I may struggle with if I haven't played the class in ages is the rotation)

But I honestly didn't see any reason to be complaining as I logged into my Operative today (Concealment) and saw no issue it was quite fun actually had been a long time coming although I found Lethality has better DPS out the two but Concealment is by far the most fun out the two.

this is getting off topic but the point is still, which is true independent from PvP where opers can troll bads any day in PvE concealment got penalized a bit too much in comparison to carnage mara considering:

1.) carnage mara has no positioning requirement for optimal dps - you force leap and do your thing (burst window) - does not matter if you are infront or back of target often a whole gcd or 2 problem, don't get me started on the reaplication of dot effects as oper which mara has none it is always ready to go - pewpew

2.) mara has slightly more tools to get to any target quicker - hello intercessor (again dps boost for melee dps)

3.) mara has way better aoe than concealment

4.) mara has better group utility than concealment at least in raids-for ranked it is even basically they are just different sets of perks

all in all bioware know most players play sith warrior/jedi knite so it makes no sense to over-nerf those so everyone gets totally frustrated.

from a pve dps standpoint and even as going as far as pvp balance there is no reason for them not to be the same "at target dps" category (and now they are 300dps apart.) in pvp such fine measures of dps output are outweighed by factored likes being able to stay on target as melee and also dps under pressure. the later point being also significant in burn phases of nim ops. fine, let opers have their good off-heals while maras have great passive damage mitigation, but their dps output in a perfect environment has to be very close for pve balancing reasons it does not make sense otherwise. as mara you will still be able to kill or force a retreat, or help arrives of that pesky operative before they kill you as long as you keep up the pressure - which your passive and instant damage mitigation tools will allow you to do.

Also a 300 dps increase to a class on dummy does not do anything in a pvp setting really, but does have benefit for operation bosses.