Hello everyone, I am Gudarzz and I will be serving as your marauder class representative. Thanks to everyone who voted! Hopefully, we can generate a solid discussion (along with the sentinel representative KBN) about our class and come up with some pertinent questions to present to the developers.

First, a little about myself:

I am a player for <Hey im mvp>, a rated guild on the Bastion. I have over 1000 ranked games with a 2900 rating. I have a stream where I can be reached for any comments, concerns or opinions you might have. Finally, I am a strong supporter of the SWTOR community (we recently organized a charity event to bring positive attention to our game and contribute to an awesome cause at the same time).

Now for the marauder discussion:

As you may know, we need to generate 3 questions for the developers: 1 PVP, 1 PVE, and 1 "Custom". I don't want to rush into details too quickly, as I want to confirm if we should designate a particular spec for a particular question type. For example, annihilation for pvp, carnage for pve, and rage for the custom question. Of course, this is only for organizational purposes, as all suggestions/concerns should keep both PVP and PVE in consideration. After all, we don't want a change that will stabilize and balance PVP but completely undermine PVE.

Carnage:

The general complaint about carnage involves its inherent reliance on RNG. Not only does the RNG determine top end burst, but it can also lead to underwhelming dps at times. This is largely due to several factors: unintended gore/execute procs from ataru strikes, reliance on force scream auto-crits, and some rage management issues. As a primer for discussion, I would like to present some initial ideas:

- Gore/execute procs no longer trigger from random ataru strikes, but from those triggered by massacre. Adds a measure of control to burst phases.

- Gore becomes a static buff until a damaging attack (or any other ability?) is performed and the 4.5s countdown begins. In other words, gore stays up until you start attacking again. This resolves operation boss knockback issues and gives better pvp viability for carnage. It also adds an additional level of skill when it comes to countering a carnage marauder, as any class with a knockback will have to selectively use cooldowns instead of spamming them upon engagement to deny a gore buff. (i.e. knocking back based on the assumption the mara has gore vs. knocking back when the mara actually has gore)

- Allow dual saber throw to generate rage as it does with Force Vigor in rage. Resolves some rage management issues.

Annihilation:

I absolutely wanted to reserve the "pvp" question for this spec, as it seems to be a very reliable, "cut and dry" PVE spec for marauders. There is no question that the spec underperforms in rated pvp. At times, I feel like the spec is confused with itself: Is it truly a dot class despite the limited output of bleeds and weakness to cleanse? Or is it a burst spec that constantly struggles to keep the expensive and demanding annihilator buff? In terms of available specs, marauders and snipers are the only classes with 3 dps specs. Every other class has the option to serve in either the tank or healer role. Snipers are provided with a high "utility" engineering spec. So what do we do with annihilation? Should it mirror the utility of the engineering sniper as the "3rd" spec? Some primers for discussion (NOTE: Oofalong mentioned some of these ideas here):

- Duration of annihilator buff is increased. This is the cookie cutter solution, but offers great potential no doubt.

- Annihilate can cause bonus damage based on stacks of annihilator or other factors.

- Dots cannot be cleansed. Another commonly proposed solution, but no doubt very effective.

- Agonizing Sabers is altered so that it also affects healing. (Try dueling a skilled operative healer and tell me when it ends ).

- Dual saber throw is granted a utility characteristic, such as knocking snipers/operatives out of cover, etc.

Rage:

As one of the most controversial and heavily criticized specs, rage is difficult to address and balance for both PVP and PVE. As an AOE based spec, it performs too well in PVP and underperforms in PVE (unless your guild struggles at clearing trash mobs ). In PVP, the spec arguably generates better single target pressure than both annihilation and carnage with very little skill input and the added benefit of auto-crit smashes on multiple targets. There is very little risk and huge rewards (carnage burst can be denied with a knockback, annihilation dots can be countered...while rage can't be rooted). It even has a cheaper undying rage. How can this apparent "OP" spec be altered to make it more viable in PVE while keeping it under control in warzones? Some thoughts:

- WIth the exception of operation bosses, scale the damage of smash to the number of targets being hit and restore 4 stacks of shockwave. Therefore, you are penalized for hitting only a single target in PVP but still have strong single target damage in PVE. I know KBN stated a ~9% lower parse for rage and this would potentially make up some ground.

I know some of you have contacted me about general concerns. I haven't forgotten those requests. Bugs are part of every game, but the global skipping issues (happens around 5% of the time for me) have to be addressed by bioware as it threatens to diminish the quality of PVP, PVE, duels, etc.

Hopefully, I have provided some starter points for discussion. Make sure to follow KBN's sentinel thread and look out for Oofalong's posts as well. Let's keep the ideas organized and the trolls to a minimum. I await your input. Thanks!

Annihilation:

- Duration of annihilator buff is increased. This is the cookie cutter solution, but offers great potential no doubt.

There have been an interesting suggestion in another thread here on the subforum, which is to remove the stacks of Annihilator all together, and make Annihilation a 6 sec CD ability. Now this does require reducing the damage of Annihilation by about 4~5% to counter the increase dps we get in the first 40 seconds if we are to maintain the same sustained dps. I think this is a better solution than the increase of annihilator buff duration because we are required to maintain multiple stacks for best dps. I am not arguing against stacks, my problem is the multiplicity of them.

(this will help in PvE as well)

- Dots cannot be cleansed. Another commonly proposed solution, but no doubt very effective.

Indeed, but this will mess up in the very least 1v1 balance, this change will put us as the best dueling spec, if dots can't be cleansed, Agents and Assassins will cry over this one.

- Agonizing Sabers is altered so that it also affects healing. (Try dueling a skilled operative healer and tell me when it ends ).

- Dual saber throw is granted a utility characteristic, such as knocking snipers/operatives out of cover, etc.

I like these two very much. They will make us a very good utility spec!

If I may add one more suggestion:

I think we can change "Pulverize" to not only finish the CD on rupture but also end the effect itself by dealing the remaining damage.

I have a 55 combat sent and am currently leveling a marauder.

I absolutely love the suggestions for carnage spec!

As you may know, we need to generate 3 questions for the developers: 1 PVP, 1 PVE, and 1 "Custom". I don't want to rush into details too quickly, as I want to confirm if we should designate a particular spec for a particular question type. For example, annihilation for pvp, carnage for pve, and rage for the custom question. Of course, this is only for organizational purposes, as all suggestions/concerns should keep both PVP and PVE in consideration. After all, we don't want a change that will stabilize and balance PVP but completely undermine PVE.

Personally I feel that asking a question does not have to be a pvp or pve based thing. Just ask the questions in a way so that it addresses both pvp and pve if that is possible. Either way here are my thoughts.

- Gore/execute procs no longer trigger from random ataru strikes, but from those triggered by massacre. Adds a measure of control to burst phases.

I would like to see slaughter changed so that you can only proc it if gore is on cd. This would eliminate missing a gore which I find happens quite a lot more than I would like. The idea you proposed here is good but I think the slaughter change would make the change you mentioned unnecessary. The only problem I see with your change is that it would make procs for execute harder due to the fact that only one ability can proc it rather than every attack you do. WIth the slaughter change, the rng factor would be reduced a lot (you would only have to worry about execute rather than 2 procs).

- Gore becomes a static buff until a damaging attack (or any other ability?) is performed and the 4.5s countdown begins. In other words, gore stays up until you start attacking again. This resolves operation boss knockback issues and gives better pvp viability for carnage. It also adds an additional level of skill when it comes to countering a carnage marauder, as any class with a knockback will have to selectively use cooldowns instead of spamming them upon engagement to deny a gore buff. (i.e. knocking back based on the assumption the mara has gore vs. knocking back when the mara actually has gore)

I like this one a lot actually so I could go for this.

- Allow dual saber throw to generate rage as it does with Force Vigor in rage. Resolves some rage management issues.

This would certainly help out the rage management. I personally don't find it to be too bad (I don't spec in to cloak of carnage either and I still feel fine). The rage management is difficult which I like because it causes the person to be have to be more skilled to play the class effectively which I think is good. If they did do this then I would say to move it from the rage tree and put it here. Rage is stupidly easy to manage rage so if they lost this talent I don't think anyone would cry.

- Duration of annihilator buff is increased. This is the cookie cutter solution, but offers great potential no doubt.

Rather than do this, I would like to see the annihilator buff only lose one stack when it runs out rather than all stacks. This would still penalize people for not using annihilate before the buff runs out but it would not be such a massive dps loss like it is now. It takes a long enough time to get all 4 stacks (which is currently something that hurts it in pvp) so losing only one stack would allow the player to get back to max dps quickly.

- Annihilate can cause bonus damage based on stacks of annihilator or other factors.

I think the damage is fine (with everything built up it does nice dps) but that's just me. Others may feel differently.

- Dots cannot be cleansed. Another commonly proposed solution, but no doubt very effective.

This would be a great change but I feel that simply making them uncleansable would be too over powered. Perhaps make them have a 50% chance to be uncleansable? Or make it so that When it gets cleansed there is a chance that it will do the remaining dot damage instantly. While it wouldn't be huge, the burst from that and annihilate at the same time could make the spec more effective for pvp. These are just things I thought of off the top of my head so it could use some polishing.

- Agonizing Sabers is altered so that it also affects healing. (Try dueling a skilled operative healer and tell me when it ends ).

I doubt this would do much but it couldn't hurt I suppose.

- Dual saber throw is granted a utility characteristic, such as knocking snipers/operatives out of cover, etc.

I realize this was just a suggestion but I would prefer not to make us a counter to a specific class. Like I said I know this was just an idea so its not set in stone or anything. I do like the idea of adding some sort of utility to it thought. Maybe make this ability have a small heal debuff? Or remove guard for a few seconds? I wouldn't want to make it too powerful but removing guard would certainly make it a powerful tool for pvp.

- restore 4 stacks of shockwave.

Just curious as to what restoring 4 stacks would do? Currently the only difference that I can recall is that it generates 33% damage per stack currently where as it used to generate 25% per stack before.

Personally I would like to see rage be harder to play IF it stays the way it is in terms of its damage. It is way too easy to do damage in this spec and you have so many tools to survive. It got the name "smash monkey" because literally, it is so easy that a monkey could do it. The only thing that is easier to play (in my opinion) was the pyro powertech. They got a massive damage nerf and while I hate this spec, I don't want to see it be made useless. Pyro powertechs had stupidly good damage (that I considered to be op for how easy it was) but the spec was extremely squishy because it lacked defensive cds. I would like to see smash made harder to play or be easier to kill by nerfing the extra defensive cds it gets from the talents.

-Remove the talents "undying" and Force vigor" and replace those with some other type of single target damage buff. These talents could then be moved to a different talent tree.

-Move defensive roll up in the carnage talent tree so that they cannot get it while playing full rage spec (if they wanted defensive roll they would have to skip force crush which would obviously hurt the damage of this spec). I realize that this would hurt annihilation because they could no longer get the talent but something could be added to annihilation so that it could get an aoe damage reduction as well. Or the change mentioned above could be put in annihilation. I hear some people complain that annihilation is squishy (which I don't agree with, in fact I find it to be the move survivable)

-If the 2 above aren't done then I would say to nerf the damage a little by making smash only auto crit the person you are currently targeting. This would mean that the single target damage of the spec needs an increase seeing as its aoe damage would be reduced.

I think my ideas for annihilation and carnage are quite solid at least. For rage, they could use a lot more tweaking so any other thoughts would be good. Sorry for the long read as well, I tend to be long winded

Most Importantly!!!

Can you please get accuracy to scale with both sabres!!!

This attribute would benefit pve and pvp. There is no valid reason why I should have offhands miss constantly.

Thanks in advance!

From the Carnage Point of view I don't see Gore as being a major issue. With the changes in 2.0 it often refreshes faster than I need to use it anyway so for one of our big issues I feel there are other more pressing matters.

Personally I find the massive amounts of AOE damage I take in PvE and PvP to be a big issue. Having a range of 5m on most attacks I am forced to get in close. Now any half decent PvP team just floods the area with AOE damage and my options are to die or to run off doing no damage and getting shot to bits. I only have so many defensive cool downs and a few sages or smugglers can keep me away from objectives or people fairly easily. And if I do stay and try and tank it out my damage is not sufficient to out dps most classes before I'm screwed. And as said ravage is out main damage dealer and that's both a long cool down in PvP and half the time people seem to be able to walk away.

As for the PvE side of things, the devs seem determined to give more and more bosses full area damage special attacks. Great if your are in heavy armour and/or have a few heals. But for the marauder its just watching your health drop and hoping the healer in your group can get round to you in time. You are completely healer dependent for unavoidable damage that no levels of knowing your class or skill can get round.

On a side I also find our lack of a cleanse to be something of a problem, dots are very fashionable both in pvp and pve and with our lack of damage mitigation a few stacks of dots and we are in a bad bad state. Not saying we need to cleanse every dot but as it stands it feels a lot like the CC and DOT wars.

Congrats on the position Gudarzz! I'm confident that you will represent the class well, and you and KBN should compliment each other nicely, I think.

Now, here's my feedback on the ideas presented so far (I participate in both HM/NiM Ops and rated warzones FWIW). I've added spoiler tags since this post is very long.

Carnage

Annihilation

Rage

There's my 2 credits.

Cookie cutter as it may be, this should definitely happen. It wouldn't really lower the skill cap of the spec, since Annihilate is used on cooldown anyway. With the amount of downtime you have in both PvE and PvP, ramp up time is just too long as is. Another nice buff would be if Frenzy added a stack or two of Annihilator.

 

Snip

 

I'll be honest, I like the concept of building up momentum (i.e. Annihilator stacks) and not reaching full potential immediately. It's unique and interesting, to me at least. I'd rather see the duration increased, and perhaps a way to (infrequently) generate multiple stacks to mitigate the negative impact of unavoidable downtime (such as my earlier suggestion to let Frenzy generate a stack or two).

 

snip

 

Not a bad idea in a vacuum, but I'd rather see this for a spec with longer DoT durations (perhaps Madness). It'd lower the skill cap too, which is something I'll rarely support.

The problem is that the position of Annihilation at this moment does not justify the skill required for it. When you have specs as simple as Arsenal, you can't justify a melee spec having a much higher skill cap. We are not even in top 5 spots of DPS if we were willing to consider this thread. What I am trying to say here is that there is some fundamental issues with the spec itself that are not mitigated by its performance in PvE and PvP (it is much worse for PvP). Slightly lowering the skill cap is irrelevant in this context IMO.

I can't help but think anni could use some cc immunity on say leap like say vigilance/vengeance for more pvp viability, the reason for this is you have to stay on a target to deal out maximum dmg and building stacks of juyo etc. It takes a while to build up your dmg and with the amount of cc in the game i'd say this would make the spec much more enjoyable in pvp while not really giving any OP pve consequences (except maybe against bosses like dash'roode with knock-backs..).

This along with the cleanse immunity on berserk/zen could go along way with making the spec better. Also a crit % increase talent for merciless slash/annihilate would be good..

I can't help but think anni could use some cc immunity on say leap like say vigilance/vengeance for more pvp viability, the reason for this is you have to stay on a target to deal out maximum dmg and building stacks of juyo etc. It takes a while to build up your dmg and with the amount of cc in the game i'd say this would make the spec much more enjoyable in pvp while not really giving any OP pve consequences (except maybe against bosses like dash'roode with knock-backs..).

This along with the cleanse immunity on berserk/zen could go along way with making the spec better. Also a crit % increase talent for merciless slash/annihilate would be good..

CC immunity + dot protection on berserk is an interesting idea!

"In PVP, the spec arguably generates better single target pressure than both annihilation and carnage with very little skill input and the added benefit of auto-crit smashes on multiple targets. There is very little risk and huge rewards (carnage burst can be denied with a knockback, annihilation dots can be countered...while rage can't be rooted). It even has a cheaper undying rage."

I completely agree. When playing rage and attempting a mass DPS output effort in PVP as to create a bigger gap between the opposing team's HPS, its not entirely difficult to execute. It creates pressure against healers and dps and over all I feel the spec has it's defined purpose and identity for it's usefulness in Rated Team Play.

Carnage definitely has its problems in allowing for it's burst aspect to be executed, but at least the spec is appreciated when it comes to one of our favorite maps: Hutball <3 Good utility and speed bonuses are good enough to where we AT LEAST consider if not demand(most do) that one marauder be carnage for this map. It's usefulness in this map is wanted and appreciated so at least it has that going for it despite it's burst difficulties.

Annihilation is the one spec I don't hear anyone wanting or calling for. As a hybrid dps/healing spec, it does well 1v1, not because of its dps output, but it's survivability(healing,). Thus if u can survive long enough for your dots to do their work, you'll survive a 1v1 encounter (much more difficult against stealthys ><). But this game isn't revolved around 1v1's. PVP wise, the specs dots are hinderingly slow, and yes keeping the annihilator buff can be difficult at times but the challenge is fun. In fact the spec itself is really fun to play and I'm sure many marauders would agree, it just underperforms and doesn't really seem to have a clear benefit or purpose as to why a PVP team would want a marauder in this spec to help them win the match.

Marauders revolve around creating 30 stacks of fury and spending them for huge rewards. Rage marauders spend 30 stacks fury and get 3 stacks of shockwave AND 12 Rage; a full bar of resources and and increased smash output which can be used up to 5 opponents. Carnage can spend 30 stacks of fury on a 30% alacrity boost for 6 attacks OR on the preferred predation bonus which increases the entire party’s speed which proves useful and desired for hutball.

Annihilation spends 30 stacks of fury and increases the crits of your bleeds to 100% for 6 ticks and heals the entire party for 1percent each of those ticks.

The idea on paper actually doesn’t sound too bad, but if it was doing the party any real good people would notice it more and call for it because of its purpose. Not to mention if you already have a couple of good healers and a tank, the minimal HoT for the entire party isn’t noticeable enough for players to realize it or desire it over the benefit of what the other marauder specs have to offer.

Initially I thought of increasing the healing of the party during Annihilation’s beserk so it feels like it has a greater purpose. Something maybe to consider so it feels more useful. But with 2 healers and tank, especially in Rated play, it still doesn’t seem as useful as having a rage marauder over an annihilation marauder.

I kinda like the idea of making annihilation berserk’s benefit into mini Blood thirst sessions. You’re dots could still crit and heal your self as usual but in addition, instead of healing your party for 1percent each tick Berserk now increases the entire party’s damage and healing output by 5 % for 5 seconds (variable). Many skilled teams separate each other from the ability to correlate CC. It would be interesting and pretty fun to correlate focus targeting during 5 second optimal scenarios. It certainly would encourage focus targeting and teamwork to achieve optimal damage against your opponents at the right time.

Overall, I would like to see the annihilation spec and tree redefined in it’s purpose and usefulness towards team play. Whether it benefit from increased single dps output (altering talent tree or ability mechanisms) , increased healing berserk, or an increase in the party’s output and healing during annihilation’s berserk(mini bloodthirst).

The spec is fun to play, hope we can make an impact to reinvigorate Annihilation.

Most Importantly!!!

 

Can you please get accuracy to scale with both sabres!!!

 

This attribute would benefit pve and pvp. There is no valid reason why I should have offhands miss constantly.

 

Thanks in advance!

The valid reason for this is to balance against other classes. And, currently we already get boosted off-hand effectiveness via Dual Wield Mastery. Still, it may be legitimate to increase the OH accuracy or its damage coefficient in order to boost its effectiveness although I would personally suggest other changes would provide more meaningful results.

For melee attacks the OH contributes about 15% of the damage of the attack adjusting for accuracy and crit + surge. If its accuracy were equal to MH we would see ~25% increase in OH damage. This would now correspond to 18% of an attack's overall damage, and would effectively increase our damage for melee dual wielding attacks by ~4%.

Incidentally, OH accuracy has no bearing on force attacks such as bleeds used heavily by Annihilation (40% of the damage), Force Scream used heavily by Carnage (20% of the damage) or Smash used heavily by Rage (100% of the damage )

TL;DR - your request would boost damage output marginally, and there are probably better ways to do this that would be more universally beneficial.

Carnage definitely has its problems in allowing for it's burst aspect to be executed, but at least the spec is appreciated when it comes to one of our favorite maps: Hutball <3 Good utility and speed bonuses are good enough to where we AT LEAST consider if not demand(most do) that one marauder be carnage for this map. It's usefulness in this map is wanted and appreciated so at least it has that going for it despite it's burst difficulties.

This, i prefer carnage more than any other spec but with the civil war side speeders being removed it will make carnage viable in Civil

Hello everyone, great posts so far. Keep them coming!

Just remember, my goal here is address the bigger, underlying issues behind each spec. For example, the constant suggestions for changes to gore is allowing me to formulate a more direct carnage question that addresses the RNG and "deniability of damage" problems behind the spec. The specifics about individual abilities and talents are really helpful so keep theorizing and coming up with ideas.

I just had an in depth conversation with Steadfast from <Suckafish>, a top PVE progression guild, and we formulated some good bucket questions based on your posts. Thanks for the input so far!

Hello everyone, great posts so far. Keep them coming!

 

Just remember, my goal here is address the bigger, underlying issues behind each spec. For example, the constant suggestions for changes to gore is allowing me to formulate a more direct carnage question that addresses the RNG and "deniability of damage" problems behind the spec. The specifics about individual abilities and talents are really helpful so keep theorizing and coming up with ideas.

 

I just had an in depth conversation with Steadfast from <Suckafish>, a top PVE progression guild, and we formulated some good bucket questions based on your posts. Thanks for the input so far!

I am wondering what format the questions are to be presented in? can you give us an example ?

I can't help but think anni could use some cc immunity on say leap like say vigilance/vengeance for more pvp viability, the reason for this is you have to stay on a target to deal out maximum dmg and building stacks of juyo etc. It takes a while to build up your dmg and with the amount of cc in the game i'd say this would make the spec much more enjoyable in pvp while not really giving any OP pve consequences (except maybe against bosses like dash'roode with knock-backs..).

This along with the cleanse immunity on berserk/zen could go along way with making the spec better. Also a crit % increase talent for merciless slash/annihilate would be good..

cc imunity/ranged dmg reduction/saber ward buff/a stun. melee dps needs something to better combat ranged dps imo.

I am wondering what format the questions are to be presented in? can you give us an example ?

Sure thing. Eric Musco provided an example of a "bad" question and a "good" question:

Bad example: You guys are aware that we suck in PvP right?

 

Good example: We feel that in general our class lacks some utility and cc in comparison to other classes in Warzones. As an example (your reasoning), do you guys feel we are in a good place here? Do you also feel this is an issue?

Therefore, based on this provided example I can preface a question with some specifics (as provided by the suggestions throughout this post). For example:

"Carnage damage revolves around the ability to anticipate and plan periods of burst around gore. As it stands, gore is overly susceptible to RNG and 'dps denial'. Unintended ataru strikes leading to suboptimal gore/execute procs greatly diminish the possibility for optimal dps. Furthermore, the ease at which gore is countered by commonplace knockback/stuns (both from operations bosses and pvpers) creates an added layer of lost dps. A simple change to slaughter that allows activation only when gore is on cooldown would resolve many RNG issues. Furthermore, allowing gore to remain as a static buff until a damage phase is initiated (at which point, the 4.5s window would commence) would eliminate "lucky" gore counters (i.e. spammable knockbacks, etc) and require players to pay attention to buffs. Does the development team believe that the overwhelming issues with RNG and the ease of countering carnage dps need to be addressed so that the primary single target burst spec for marauders can be utilized more optimally?"

This isn't necessarily the question I will present, but merely an example of how I intend to present our ideas in the form of a question that encompasses the larger issues at hand.

Sure thing. Eric Musco provided an example of a "bad" question and a "good" question:

 

 

 

Therefore, based on this provided example I can preface a question with some specifics (as provided by the suggestions throughout this post). For example:

 

"Carnage damage revolves around the ability to anticipate and plan periods of burst around gore. As it stands, gore is overly susceptible to RNG and 'dps denial'. Unintended ataru strikes leading to suboptimal gore/execute procs greatly diminish the possibility for optimal dps. Furthermore, the ease at which gore is countered by commonplace knockback/stuns (both from operations bosses and pvpers) creates an added layer of lost dps. A simple change to slaughter that allows activation only when gore is on cooldown would resolve many RNG issues. Furthermore, allowing gore to remain as a static buff until a damage phase is initiated (at which point, the 4.5s window would commence) would eliminate "lucky" gore counters (i.e. spammable knockbacks, etc) and require players to pay attention to buffs. Does the development team believe that the overwhelming issues with RNG and the ease of countering carnage dps need to be addressed so that the primary single target burst spec for marauders can be utilized more optimally?"

 

This isn't necessarily the question I will present, but merely an example of how I intend to present our ideas in the form of a question that encompasses the larger issues at hand.

I think that carnage/annihilation need to give people a reason to pick that spec over rage in pvp. The changes you are asking for seem overly modest to me but that is just my opinion. Idk how other players feel but I think warrior dps (non rage) is harder to play than ranged dps, is harder to be effective with, and could use a buff.

I think that carnage/annihilation need to give people a reason to pick that spec over rage in pvp. The changes you are asking for seem overly modest to me but that is just my opinion. Idk how other players feel but I think warrior dps (non rage) is harder to play than ranged dps, is harder to be effective with, and could use a buff.

First, I wanted to clarify that the sample question I posted was merely an example of the question format. By no means do I consider it complete.

Second, we have to keep in mind that any suggestions/ideas must maintain class balance. We don't want a change with just PVP or PVE in mind.

I think wiping out inadvertent gore/execute procs and making it harder for operation bosses and enemy players to completely negate gore are quite strong improvements. It would be too easy to ask for auto force scream.

Why do you feel this is overly modest? Feel free to share.

First, I wanted to clarify that the sample question I posted was merely an example of the question format. By no means do I consider it complete.

 

Second, we have to keep in mind that any suggestions/ideas must maintain class balance. We don't want a change with just PVP or PVE in mind.

 

I think wiping out inadvertent gore/execute procs and making it harder for operation bosses and enemy players to completely negate gore are quite strong improvements. It would be too easy to ask for auto force scream.

 

Why do you feel this is overly modest? Feel free to share.

I think melee could use passive ranged dmg reduction or a better version of saber ward. Warrior have no real stun and I would like a stun skill or for each tree to have one of its skills have a chance to stun. it is harder to attack people with only 4 meter range and you make yourself a target, this is why I think warrior need ranged dmg reduction.

I might just not be good enough at the class yet but I think ranged dps have a lot of advantages and warrior do not have enough to make up for them. Warrior don't have to worry about line of sight because they are 4 meter Lol.

Idk what actual changes are best for the class, I think there are other players who could better help with that but I just think warrior(non rage) are lacking compared to ranged dps and the rage spec.

I have a few ideas on changes though.

annihilation

A buff to annihilation healing/mobility.

make it so that you only lose 1 stack at a time of juyo/annihilator or just less stacks but the same maximum buff. make annihilations dots only partially cleansable.

give the tree or the class %ranged dmg reduction.

longer stealth time/maybe annihilate or crit dots having a % chance to put you in stealth for a few seconds.

% to immobilize/blind/stun on annihilate/dots.

make deadly saber an attack with dot dmg that gives the deadly saber buff or just make it a passive ability that activates when you use annihilate or rupture.

some aoe dot dmg.

Have berserk instantly heal you or all nearby teammates for a % of your hp.

carnage

the rotation could be made simpler.

more rage generation.

I think execute proc could be 100% with a cooldown after a number of ataru form hits.

gore should last for a curtain number of attacks or not start the timer until you use your next attack after gore. Ravage stunning or giving knockback/cc immunity would be nice.

a chance to resist cc or another cc breaker.

some area of effect dmg on force scream or other abilities.

some ranged dmg reduction.

buff to massacres damage.

buff to mobility. have berserk also give a small dmg buff that applies to nearby teammates as well.

rage

have force choke generate shockwave.

obliterate stunning or force crush stunning after it ends.

ranged dmg reduction.

give some of its attacks aoe dmg.

I would also like fury to be changed and for the fury skills to just be given regular cooldowns.

I would like fury to give a small buff of some kind and for it not to be required to use the fury skills.

Would also like the animation to be more subtile.

Idk if any of this is realistic but they sound like some pretty good changes to me.

I'm a carnage marauder since I started the game, and have done my best to become a good dps pre- and post-2.0. I haven't tried any other spec, I am full pve while dabbling in pvp, and I am currently the best dps in my guild. (A rather casual guild, but we have full cleared both TFB HM and S+V HM)

Carnage:

The general complaint about carnage involves its inherent reliance on RNG. Not only does the RNG determine top end burst, but it can also lead to underwhelming dps at times. This is largely due to several factors: unintended gore/execute procs from ataru strikes, reliance on force scream auto-crits, and some rage management issues. As a primer for discussion, I would like to present some initial ideas:

- Gore/execute procs no longer trigger from random ataru strikes, but from those triggered by massacre. Adds a measure of control to burst phases.

Execute in my opinion, is a very easy thing to handle. A large amount of the time, I proc Execute multiple times between burst phases and normally proc Execute at least once during a burst phase. I do not believe it needs to be more controlled, since it can only be used with Force Scream, nor do I believe it needs to be easier to proc, since I almost have too many procs of Execute.

Slaughter, on the other hand, is a more unfriendly sort, since many times it can cause problems by procing too early or too late. I do despise these problems, but they happen rarely and while aggravating, I do not think they happen enough to require a change.

- Gore becomes a static buff until a damaging attack (or any other ability?) is performed and the 4.5s countdown begins. In other words, gore stays up until you start attacking again. This resolves operation boss knockback issues and gives better pvp viability for carnage. It also adds an additional level of skill when it comes to countering a carnage marauder, as any class with a knockback will have to selectively use cooldowns instead of spamming them upon engagement to deny a gore buff. (i.e. knocking back based on the assumption the mara has gore vs. knocking back when the mara actually has gore)

I like this idea, but I think it needs to be taken a step further. I think making Gore function similar to Berserk would be worthwhile, where Gore would give you 3 stacks that would increase armor penetration by 100% for 10s or so and each attack would remove 1 stack.

You would have to counter the fact that ravage would only take one stack, but you would also be unable to force a 4th action by using Berserk, which may counter that benefit. I think this would be worthwhile since it would allow Carnage to be harder to counter in pvp, and it would make Gore easier to use in pve when bosses have knockbacks. However, this would make Berserk less useful without the set bonus.

- Allow dual saber throw to generate rage as it does with Force Vigor in rage. Resolves some rage management issues.

I actually do not have any problems with rage management. I have heard many complaints about rage management, but I easily maintain my rage on a combat dummy and getting 2900+ dps. This issue I believe just requires more work on each individual's rotation rather than a change to the mechanics of Carnage.

I think melee could use passive ranged dmg reduction or a better version of saber ward. Warrior have no real stun and I would like a stun skill or for each tree to have one of its skills have a chance to stun. it is harder to attack people with only 4 meter range and you make yourself a target, this is why I think warrior need ranged dmg reduction.

Personally I don't think any of our specs need any more defenses. We currently have the best defensive cds in the game (20 % damage reduction with a flat damage amount reflected back, 25% force and tech damage reduction along with 50% increased melee and ranged defense chance, stealth for 4 seconds, 4 seconds of 99% damage reduction but our current hp gets cut in half, 90% melee and ranged accuracy reduction) and these are all baseline. I didn't include what each spec, set bonus, etc gives us. If I included what each spec gets then this would go on for a while... In any case I feel that our cds are fine assuming they are used correctly. Other classes complain that we have too many cds and for certain specs I have to agree with them (rage spec for example is too survivable for how much damage it does in my opinion).

I do like some of your ideas here but I would not want to make us overpowered. Giving us stuns would make us very powerful (If we could stun during gore then we would be unstoppable killing machines...) Also I don't want more stun wars here. Ever since the bubble stun nerf I thought cc has been perfect in the game and I would not wish to upset that balance (many other people may disagree but that is how I feel). I would like to see some small changes like the ones Gudarzz mentioned for carnage earlier. Giving us 2 small buffs like that would make this spec arguably the most viable for ranked because of its single target burst abilities (Currently you can strait up kill a person within 4.5 seconds if everything is lined up). I don't think this change would make the spec overpowered but it would make it quite powerful and it would make it arguably the best choice for ranked pvp.

I like this idea, but I think it needs to be taken a step further. I think making Gore function similar to Berserk would be worthwhile, where Gore would give you 3 stacks that would increase armor penetration by 100% for 10s or so and each attack would remove 1 stack.

You would have to counter the fact that ravage would only take one stack, but you would also be unable to force a 4th action by using Berserk, which may counter that benefit. I think this would be worthwhile since it would allow Carnage to be harder to counter in pvp, and it would make Gore easier to use in pve when bosses have knockbacks. However, this would make Berserk less useful without the set bonus.

The only problem I see with this is that it would make countering it in pvp nearly impossible (as far as I can see). In pve I could see this change being great but I would like to avoid making a change that helps the spec in one aspect but hurts it in another. I personally like the change Gudarzz suggested because it would help both pvp and pve without making it uncounterable.

actually do not have any problems with rage management. I have heard many complaints about rage management, but I easily maintain my rage on a combat dummy and getting 2900+ dps. This issue I believe just requires more work on each individual's rotation rather than a change to the mechanics of Carnage.

I agree with this. Maybe a slight boost in rage generation, (like giving us back the 1 rage per 6 seconds like how blood frenzy used to work pre 2.0, it wasn't exactly every 6 seconds but close enough) but I agree that it is mostly a skill thing and I like higher skill caps for the specs. Not every random person should be able to master the spec easily. It should take some time and practice and this would require that time and practice to get good at the spec to use it to the fullest.