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Why is Bioware so much more willing to kill Imperial characters?

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Story and Lore
Why is Bioware so much more willing to kill Imperial characters?

Damask_Rose's Avatar


Damask_Rose
01.17.2016 , 12:17 PM | #111
Quote: Originally Posted by Joachimthbear View Post
What the Republic did on Belsavis was wrong. What the Republic did on Belsavis was nevertheless (a) on a much smaller scale; (b) not common knowledge; (c) not slavery. It's regarded, rightly or wrongly, as a regrettable necessity. Project Noble Focus was illegal. If you choose to expose it, it gets shut down. In the Empire slavery is embraced. It's not necessary, it's not even efficient, they do it because they believe in it. That is deeply evil.
Did you forget that many prisoners on Belsavis were born there and not incarcerated from having done a crime? They are being forced to do things against their will in order to live. How is that not slavery? Does being on a smaller scale and hidden from sight really make it more acceptable?

OldVengeance's Avatar


OldVengeance
01.17.2016 , 02:27 PM | #112
No. But it does make it much less bad compared to the Empire. Project Noble Focus didn't apply to the whole prison either.

Lazengan's Avatar


Lazengan
01.17.2016 , 06:10 PM | #113
Quote: Originally Posted by Tamyn View Post
Imperials also lose all the planets of any worth we players spend levels trying to conquer. They lose Balmorra and Corellia, which are valuable. They "win" Taris, which is just a toxic waste dump. The Imps finally have a small victory with Makeb, although then they were desperate and on the brink of destruction.

Now I'm just itching for Satele to die since the Imperials have lost everyone cool on their side.
You understand that this Sith Empire loses in the end right?

The Republic is the only galactic government standing by the time of Episode 1

Joachimthbear's Avatar


Joachimthbear
01.18.2016 , 04:20 AM | #114
Quote: Originally Posted by Cicgnar View Post
I mean, if you watch the SW movies, there are far more named casualties (as in people dying who are not mere henchmen) in the good guys' side than in the bad guys'. Yet in this game, the good guys seem safe as ****. No casualties worth noting. It's like the war is not taking any toll on them...
If that's the principle then why don't
Spoiler
count as losses for the Republic? Why do only NPCs encountered by both sides matter?

Quote: Originally Posted by Cicgnar View Post
So there is a reason the Republic should have a couple of heroic deaths on their lines. At least, that would beat Moff Kilran's fate, one of the most prominent Empire characters... who as an Imperial you get to see... once?
The funny thing about Kilran is that he even plays the role of villain on that one occasion when you do meet him Empire-side. He's the guy threatening to murder you if you don't set everything else aside, put your life on the line and obey his orders. I would emphasise that he's still a well-made character, but he's a well-made villain. Now bear in mind that as the game was originally written the story from levels 1-50 had to be somewhat self-contained. As a matter of narrative principle, shouldn't some notable villains be defeated before the end of a self-contained story?

Quote: Originally Posted by Cicgnar View Post
But as I've said just before... We're the bad guys. And that's okay, I don't have a problem with that, storywise. But the good guys are the ones who should get heros dying while we lose tons of henchmen. The opposite being true means that the Republic is getting the villain treatment.
You should play the Republic side more. The Republic loses people - but they're not always people that the game spent time on introducing Empire-side, sometimes they're just people that the Republic players get to know personally.

Quote: Originally Posted by Cicgnar View Post
Has the Empire run out of assassins? Can't put an agent or bounty hunter on some politician's or general's track and remove him/her? Can't we see them, at least, worried about their safety because of the continuous attempts on their lifes?
From a storytelling point of view I doubt it would be very satisfying if we just got a news report telling us that Chancellor Saresh has just been assassinated off-screen. Besides, remember that
Spoiler
Why would it be easier to get rid of Saresh?

Quote: Originally Posted by Damask_Rose View Post
Did you forget that many prisoners on Belsavis were born there and not incarcerated from having done a crime? They are being forced to do things against their will in order to live. How is that not slavery?
It's definitely wrong, but it's not slavery. Imprisonment or detention - even without trial or due process of law, even indefinitely - is not slavery. Or is it shown that these guys are being compelled to work and tortured if they refuse? I don't remember that coming up.

Quote: Originally Posted by Damask_Rose View Post
Does being on a smaller scale and hidden from sight really make it more acceptable?
I would stress more acceptable (or maybe "less unacceptable?" ), but, yes. Murder is wrong, but murdering ten people is still worse than murdering one person; scale is always important. As for being hidden from sight, it highlights the fact that what's happening on Belsavis is not in accordance with the Republic's own principles. The widespread and open slavery in the Empire is not only in accordance with the Empire's (evil) principles, it's carried out primarily for the sake of those principles.

The Republic is detaining certain people on Belsavis reluctantly, because they feel they have no choice. The Empire is enslaving as many people as possible on a galactic scale because they believe that's their right as a superior race and caste.

BrianDavion's Avatar


BrianDavion
01.18.2016 , 04:43 AM | #115
Quote: Originally Posted by Cicgnar View Post
Err.. You mean, besides there is a cruel war going on all around the galaxy and no figure, regardless of his/her station has been safe from it? I mean, the Empire is supposed to be the ruthless, underhanded, backstabbing part of this war, yet not even an assasination attempt has been made on figures like Sareesh or Satele or....

I mean, if you watch the SW movies, there are far more named casualties (as in people dying who are not mere henchmen) in the good guys' side than in the bad guys'. Yet in this game, the good guys seem safe as ****. No casualties worth noting. It's like the war is not taking any toll on them...

... And that substracts essence from the story, because as I pointed out earlier, the toll is made evident in the storytelling thus far!

So there is a reason the Republic should have a couple of heroic deaths on their lines. At least, that would beat Moff Kilran's fate, one of the most prominent Empire characters... who as an Imperial you get to see... once?



Well, for me, thus far it does. Even with all those moustache-twirling sith around, I think the Empire has the more compelling storytelling. That's my opinion at least and the reason I play more Empire than Republic :P

But as I've said just before... We're the bad guys. And that's okay, I don't have a problem with that, storywise. But the good guys are the ones who should get heros dying while we lose tons of henchmen. The opposite being true means that the Republic is getting the villain treatment.

Has the Empire run out of assassins? Can't put an agent or bounty hunter on some politician's or general's track and remove him/her? Can't we see them, at least, worried about their safety because of the continuous attempts on their lifes?

ok first of all Kilrin was designed as a "heel" from day 1. he was set up to die. (and kindly remember that the Imp side equivilant to that flashpoint had you killing REVAN back in beta there was no ambuguity, he was dead, they changed it up due to fan demand that he "not go out like a punk")
secondly, assasinations of major republic characters do occur, or did you not play the Bounty Hunter?
SWTOR is not SWG. it was never intended to be at all like SWG. and having a completly differnt design philophesy then SWG will never be like SWG

Cicgnar's Avatar


Cicgnar
01.18.2016 , 02:23 PM | #116
Quote: Originally Posted by Joachimthbear View Post
If that's the principle then why don't
Spoiler
count as losses for the Republic? Why do only NPCs encountered by both sides matter?

The funny thing about Kilran is that he even plays the role of villain on that one occasion when you do meet him Empire-side. He's the guy threatening to murder you if you don't set everything else aside, put your life on the line and obey his orders. I would emphasise that he's still a well-made character, but he's a well-made villain. Now bear in mind that as the game was originally written the story from levels 1-50 had to be somewhat self-contained. As a matter of narrative principle, shouldn't some notable villains be defeated before the end of a self-contained story?

You should play the Republic side more. The Republic loses people - but they're not always people that the game spent time on introducing Empire-side, sometimes they're just people that the Republic players get to know personally.

From a storytelling point of view I doubt it would be very satisfying if we just got a news report telling us that Chancellor Saresh has just been assassinated off-screen. Besides, remember that
Spoiler
Why would it be easier to get rid of Saresh?

It's definitely wrong, but it's not slavery. Imprisonment or detention - even without trial or due process of law, even indefinitely - is not slavery. Or is it shown that these guys are being compelled to work and tortured if they refuse? I don't remember that coming up.

I would stress more acceptable (or maybe "less unacceptable?" ), but, yes. Murder is wrong, but murdering ten people is still worse than murdering one person; scale is always important. As for being hidden from sight, it highlights the fact that what's happening on Belsavis is not in accordance with the Republic's own principles. The widespread and open slavery in the Empire is not only in accordance with the Empire's (evil) principles, it's carried out primarily for the sake of those principles.

The Republic is detaining certain people on Belsavis reluctantly, because they feel they have no choice. The Empire is enslaving as many people as possible on a galactic scale because they believe that's their right as a superior race and caste.
But also to Joachimthebear....

Wow. Just. Wow. You just couldn't miss the point worse. I assume you haven't been following this thread, or really payed attention to what the OP or I were talking about so.. Let me please explain it.

We're not saying that no Republic character ever dies. Please, in any storyline I think there are casualties on both sides. That's not what's been discussed here. Neither is what function was Kilran's in the story.

What we're talking about is that, when it comes to remove somebody relevant from a storyline point of view, only Imperials seem to meet the reaper.

I don't care that the BH murders some Reps in his/her storyline; what's been discussed is that those NPCs have NO IMPORTANCE or even PRESENCE whatsoever in any other storyline. Same with all that list of NPCs you mentioned, or at least most.

You don't get to see them, or interact with them or... nothing outside those storylines. Best case scenario, vague mentions in dialogues or lore.

BUT

Malgus is an Imperial NPC who has presence all over the game, regardless of your class or story. His face is known to each fan of this game, or player. He dies.

Kilran is an Imperial NPC who has a small presence for Imps, and somewhat bigger for all Republic characters. He dies.

Darth Marr is an Imperial NPC who's important regardless your faction. Guess what?

Maybe we should count Vitiate too, but I'll pass.

You say Imps get to kill Revan.... somewhat. Who's Revan? A character from another game. And we know he's bad at staying dead, so... same as Vitiate.

So, point is... Satele, Sareesh, Theron, etc... All Republic-aligned characters who have presence all over the game are never even in danger of dying, or shown any attempt on their lives, while Imps... do.

And Lazengan... You DO realise that in the movies, first, they say that the Sith opressed the whole galaxy prior to the movies... and that the Republic symbol in the movies is the one the Sith empire uses, right? As I've said a few times before, the Sith lose... after they get to rule the galaxy for sometime and their Empire collapse letting the Republic be reborn.

BrianDavion's Avatar


BrianDavion
01.18.2016 , 03:53 PM | #117
you can say it, it doesn't make it true.

the Empire clearly isn't going to win, hell I'd argue the Empire is collapsing already, Vitiate ruled it for 1000 years, and now he's gone and someone else has seized control. Malgus may have been the first Sith to attempt to seize power, but Ancia won't be the last. this is how the Empire will end, not in a single cataclysm. but slowly killed by a thousand paper cuts from renewed agressive infighting. Maybe it's not what you wanna hear, but the writings been on the wall for quite some time. the Empire won't go down fast and it won't go down easy, but it's definatly going down
SWTOR is not SWG. it was never intended to be at all like SWG. and having a completly differnt design philophesy then SWG will never be like SWG

Cicgnar's Avatar


Cicgnar
01.18.2016 , 06:12 PM | #118
Quote: Originally Posted by BrianDavion View Post
you can say it, it doesn't make it true.

the Empire clearly isn't going to win, hell I'd argue the Empire is collapsing already, Vitiate ruled it for 1000 years, and now he's gone and someone else has seized control. Malgus may have been the first Sith to attempt to seize power, but Ancia won't be the last. this is how the Empire will end, not in a single cataclysm. but slowly killed by a thousand paper cuts from renewed agressive infighting. Maybe it's not what you wanna hear, but the writings been on the wall for quite some time. the Empire won't go down fast and it won't go down easy, but it's definatly going down
Canonically it is. No surprises there. But the same could be said about the Republic slowly drifting towards tyranny, with a chancelor gripping and abusing power for personal reasons and goals.... And removing permanently anyone who might take that power from her (we all know WHO I mean)

Joachimthbear's Avatar


Joachimthbear
01.19.2016 , 06:09 AM | #119
Quote: Originally Posted by Cicgnar View Post
Wow. Just. Wow. You just couldn't miss the point worse. I assume you haven't been following this thread, or really payed attention to what the OP or I were talking about so.. Let me please explain it.
Apparently I don't get the point, since I directly asked you to explain what the point is. I understand that, of the Republic and Empire characters encountered by both sides, more of the Empire characters die. Sure. I wanted to know why that matters. It seems I misunderstood your answer.

Quote: Originally Posted by Cicgnar View Post
Err.. You mean, besides there is a cruel war going on all around the galaxy and no figure, regardless of his/her station has been safe from it? [...] I mean, if you watch the SW movies, there are far more named casualties (as in people dying who are not mere henchmen) in the good guys' side than in the bad guys'. Yet in this game, the good guys seem safe as ****. No casualties worth noting. [...] So there is a reason the Republic should have a couple of heroic deaths on their lines.
Why do the Republic's "named casualties" and "heroic deaths" have to be characters the Empire players also encounter? Why don't the people I listed count? Don't just tell me "they don't count because the OP said they don't count, you idiot," please, explain to me why.

Cicgnar's Avatar


Cicgnar
01.19.2016 , 08:22 AM | #120
Quote: Originally Posted by Joachimthbear View Post
Apparently I don't get the point, since I directly asked you to explain what the point is. I understand that, of the Republic and Empire characters encountered by both sides, more of the Empire characters die. Sure. I wanted to know why that matters. It seems I misunderstood your answer.


Why do the Republic's "named casualties" and "heroic deaths" have to be characters the Empire players also encounter? Why don't the people I listed count? Don't just tell me "they don't count because the OP said they don't count, you idiot," please, explain to me why.
I think I've done it, but... Here I go again. I'll try to put all my ideas in some sort of order so you can at least see my train of thought.

The point of this thread, what the OP originally asked about is why only the recognizable Imperials die, while the Republic ones have been around longer and have been put through the same dangers, yet none of them have been even scathed by what they've been put through.

I agree with that, and I find it very odd storywise that, if the Republic are the good guys, as many have stated (though I personally disagree), they have no hero to celebrate or to remember after paying the ultimate price during the war. The Republic version of "Remember the Alamo!".

In the movies, the original trilogy gives you three heroes to mourn or to be worried about at the very least: Kenobi, Yoda and Solo, though he is later rescued. The rebels also had a wide array of named pilots and rebel soldiers who had some relevance in the story so when they die you care about it. The prequels added a few more names to the list of "passed heroes" too. All of these are characters you see and learn about and make you antagonize further with the bad guys when they're killed.

That's why I find it very odd that those "heroes" who should inspire the Republic to fight in their memory or avenge them, or hate the villains more for killing them... Simply don't exist.

There are NPCs of some relevance who die. Okay, can't argue that. But tell me, what difference would be between killing Satele off camera (for example) and how the chancellor dies in the BH storyline to everyone else? Because to everyone not involved (meaning, the BH), he's just a faceless npc, who only had the tiniest of mentions through the storyline. Therefore, his death has NO IMPACT whatsoever. And we're talking about the Republic leader's death!

The same could be said about all those npcs you only get to see in one class-story. They have very limited dramatic effect, since only one class would know who the npc was or what he/she did. So that's why their deaths "don't count", to this thread purpose, at least.

But then, we have the Empire side. There are NPCs that are not only restricted to one class, or even to just one faction. Everyone gets to see Kilran and know who he is and what he did. Same with Malgus, Marr, Vitiate, etc. Much like Satele or Sareesh are for the Republic. But, they are routinely killed off. The Empire is the only one who's having fallen heroes, and that's very odd storywise, since they're supposed to be the villains!

Everyone feels the death of Malgus, or more recently Marr's. Everyone gets a reaction from those, or even Kilran's. Can you even compare the effect that had to what the chancellor's gave?

I simply find it very odd. As I've said before, the Republic heroes seem to have impenetrable plot-armor. And if we don't even fear for the good guys, the story suffers. That's why I think that at the very least, you should see assasins trying to kill off Satele, Sareesh, Theron, etc, to the point they have to act to survive. To show they have to struggle to stay a step ahead. There has been a galactic-wide war for some years now, after all. And the toll that takes it is, indeed, represented in the storyline, which makes it even weirder that the Reps seem so unscathed! We see the Empire struggling and trying to stay united, purging the infighting in favour of facing a common foe, we see the Empire giving the aliens more and more rights as they realise they need them and are more useful than they thought... We see the Republic become more and more ruthless, more underhanded, more violent even when facing the Empire. We see the Republic slowly slide towards tyranny, while it fights the Empire and their inner corruption, that runs rampant everywhere... Yet the good guys are the ones getting the faceless minions deaths while the Empire is losing heroes...