252 sounds good, I'm glad you guys are listening to the community in some ways, interested to see what you guys plan on doing in the future for this 'expansion like update.'

I hope you guys remain in-touch with the community while you do it. There's a lot of good suggestions out there and things that should be changed imo.

Awww, my plans to immediately lie on the floor and admit defeat and accept a stabby/forcy death from super geared 252+s from the start of a match have been thwarted!

Thanks for this change Devs - I think people will be a lot happier.

252 is great Eric...not 258 great, but great no less.

I really appreciate you guys doing this...thank you for listening!!!

I am curious though...

To make large itemization changes to PvP like that will require an equally large update, so this is the type of issue we will have to wait until an expansion sized update to tackle.

 

-eric

...isn't 6.0 being worked on as we type? You presumably have an expansion sized update in development...right?

A 252 bolster cap would be preferable because bolster doesn't exactly make a good job with the tertiary stats and with force and tech MH/OH bonus damage. Still, 252 bolster is better than 248 for what it's worth.

Just make 258 MH/OH weapons obtainable with MWS. There must be a clear progression path with UC. Also mods beeing bound to specific piece of gear is a min/max abomination.

I am glad to hear though that expertise is back in the conversation even if we have to wait for an expansion. Wipe all my credits, my UC's, wipe everything i don't care...just bring 3.0 and 4.0 gearing method back in pvp. Let us play our alts freely again and let us try different stat builts with the mod vendors.

Edit : Eric, i noticed you used this phrase "If there is no gear chase from PvP that removes all progression from PvP gameplay and it also removes a part of the reward structure". That is good and all, but 5.10 is all about PvE gear chase. There is no way to get the gear exclusively by PvP. That's where all the problems are.

If expertise is back I'm out as casual PVPer, sorry.

It took a week to get a full set of pvp gear with casual play. It takes more than that to get a SINGLE piece of 248 gear now. Either way you need different gear for PvE and PvP even today. You don't need 110% accuracy in PvP so you have to swap a couple of pieces anyway.Swapping a whole gear set will cost you 10 more seconds. Come on man.

It took a week to get a full set of pvp gear with casual play. It takes more than that to get a SINGLE piece of 248 gear now. Either way you need different gear for PvE and PvP even today. You don't need 110% accuracy in PvP so you have to swap a couple of pieces anyway.Swapping a whole gear set will cost you 10 more seconds. Come on man.

Why should casual players have to carry around/augment 2 sets of gear? Having a pure pve gear bolster is much more accessible.

As for the topic at hand the new gear is not intended for pvp players so why should it play a part in gearing a pvp player. Pvp gear progression simply means gear grind so we can stomp other players into the ground.

If expertise is back I'm out as casual PVPer, sorry.

Pfft. You do what I did when I got started on PvP during the DvL event.

I read carefully all the descriptions of how Warzone bolster worked, and then went out and got my character's sticky mitts on a full set of 190-rated stuff, so that she was geared at *exactly* 190 in what is today called "Item Rating". Why? Because that was the described way to get the most out of the Expertise bolster.

That got me enough rewards to fully equip her with 204 PvP gear everywhere.

Sure, she had to carry a second set of gear and switch back and forth when queuing, but so what? She has enough inventory slots for that.

Why should casual players have to carry around/augment 2 sets of gear? Having a pure pve gear bolster is much more accessible.

 

As for the topic at hand the new gear is not intended for pvp players so why should it play a part in gearing a pvp player. Pvp gear progression simply means gear grind so we can stomp other players into the ground.

Because, and i will quote myself, "bolster doesn't exactly make a good job with the tertiary stats and with force and tech MH/OH bonus damage".

As for the second issue you raise, the answer is simple : agency. Having progression and control over your stats, even your looks, enables agency and helps immersion. Making your char exactly as you want him both in stats and in appearence is a core element in any mmo/rpg.

Having to swap gear is such a tedious pain in the butt.

#SayNoToExpertise

Having to swap gear is such a tedious pain in the butt.

 

#SayNoToExpertise

Yeah, i mean it takes about ten seconds .

Many thanks, Eric.

When you write your memoirs in the future, I hope you address whether this was planned all along.

I hope your answer is "yes." You knew that the forums would be inundated with an onslaught of 'Bolster should be BiS' posts even if you had originally announced 252 as the level. Now you have softened the blow perfectly! Well-played.

Regardless, it was the right decision IMHO.

Dasty

P.S. We now return to the latest PvP forum war rage topic -- expertise gear vs. non-expertise gear.

First, thank you for the change. This is substantially better, and I can appreciate the open and honest communication (scarce though it may be, not to mention about a week overdue...).

Hey folks,

 

Whenever we introduce new gear to the game, there is an inevitable conversation about what changes will be made to Bolster

This statement is true and why I think (like you yourself later admit when talking about pvp gearing changes) ANY gear additions should be left for a major expansion. Decision way above my pay grade, not to mention already made, but maybe avoid opening the unnecessary can of worms?

The other part of this conversation I take beef with is this one:

Simply put, in order to make Master Mode Gods From the Machine as terrifying as it should be we needed to have a larger item rating jump than usual for our new gear.

I feel there are some things you either missed, or are not telling us.

I'm no NiM raider, but I was doing HM revan/master blaster until your changes ran too many people off my raid team. The most difficult parts (to use your words "terrifying") were not dps checks or healing throughput checks, much less damage taken on tanks (outside of standing in stupid). It was team coordination and mechanics.

It seems dps/hps/dtps are all things you should be able to scale in a "new" op without adding new gear, especially since you are already "nerfing" HM.

If the necessity comes from "well we tuned it too hard because we weren't planning on making a MM, but now Keith Kanneg wants MM, so we have to do it" I deeply resent the reasoning.

I would bet my right foot that the MM operations community accounts for less than 5% of the current total player base. I'd bet a substantial amount less that the MM community accounts for less than 1-2% of the current total player base. Adding new gear for this substantial minority of players, at the risk of isolating the only other group that really "needs" the gear, while giving us no way of getting said gear any faster than someone doing solo story content seems incredibly short sighted if the only reason for doing it is because someone above your pay grade said so. Yes I realize this happens all the time (dealing with an IRL case of it right now, actually).

I question how many people in game will he able to do MM gods in 258 that could NOT do it in 248. Given the numbers of existing MM raiders and taking a complete shot in the dark, I'm going with easily less than 1%.

Supposedly, like you yourself imply in the paragraph regarding only changing PvP gear in a major expansion, you guys are too limited to conduct any major changes.

Why then, add this gear at all (considering all my above listed points) AND separate it entirely from the GC system (that, I might add, it took over a year to get to a tolerable level)?

Or if adding this new gear is really that easy, why is fixing defense rating on tank gear or separating PvE and PvP gearing issues so difficult?

You also answer no questions in regard to current optimization techniques or the obtainability of 252 gear.

Is 252 going to be craftable, and if so how? Will it require MM gods?

Are the enhancements supposed to be locked to a specific gear slot, thus forcing you to either grind MM gods or purchase for what will inevitably be an exorbitant number of credits the crafted versions and (hopefully inadvertantly) creating a grind within a grind while benefitting the like 0.25% of players who are MM PvEers who also craft?

Frankly, I care less that you are adding the gear (a 5% total stat pool increase with no chance of reaching the next alacrity rounoff error point and no additional stats on any item hardly seem overwhelming in terms of balance) than I do about the motivations for doing it in the first place.

It seems the content is not expected to be able to attract players to play it of its own accord, and thus the gear grind is being added so that people play it, leading it to be deemed a success. Remember one thing in this approach: more does not mean better. If you force people to do something they do not enjoy for too long, you will ultimately chase them off, resulting in lower sub numbers, less cartel purchases, and less players overall - which inevitably leads to less income to you.

Someone is going to be unhappy no matter what you do - it is in your best interest, however, to make as many players happy as possible.

Whoa! /faint

Wait its not maxed out (258). Ugh, im sad again, cya in 6.0!

Musco, dear sir, fix dem forum smiles/emoticons while you are here.

Well, not ideal but this is sounding better already.

I will hope you'll be bringing Expertise back (to keep "rewards", expertise would just make it mode-specific).

That, or increase bolster to max, but simply introduce a vendor for separate lettered mods and reward some currency to buy those with trough PVP. Then there would still be reward in form of stat tweaking and people wouldn't feel like PVE gearing is just plain superior to PVP gearing all the time.

Please also add some rewards to lowbie PVP there is no reason to do lowbies/midbies atm.

The most difficult parts (to use your word "terrifying") were not dps checks or healing throughput checks, much less damage taken on tanks (outside of standing in stupid). :It was team coordination and mechanics.

Let's be honest here, the most difficult parts of the current state of hm/nim ops - the spaghetti code of a game engine that can't accurately track the position of each character (read: desync), see Underlurker.

No new tier of gear is going to fix that.

Wow. It amazes me how many people have forgotten how easy, cheap and casual friendly PvP Gear was to get in 4.0. I miss those days so much.

And really? Complaining about the 10 seconds it takes to swap gear sets? So precious! :D:D

Wow. It amazes me how many people have forgotten how easy, cheap and casual friendly PvP Gear was to get in 4.0. I miss those days so much.

 

And really? Complaining about the 10 seconds it takes to swap gear sets? So precious! :D:D

People will always complain, because they want better. It's natural, do not hate or judge them for it

Personally I preferred when pvp set had lower item rating than PVE, the powercreep is a little cringe to look at. But whatevs, nice to know at the very least that the devs have taken some consideration to the current state of affairs. It is a little encouraging

It took a week to get a full set of pvp gear with casual play. It takes more than that to get a SINGLE piece of 248 gear now. Either way you need different gear for PvE and PvP even today. You don't need 110% accuracy in PvP so you have to swap a couple of pieces anyway.Swapping a whole gear set will cost you 10 more seconds. Come on man.

With huge difference in usefullness even if a PVEer with accuracy jumps in versus PVEer with zero expertise jumping in as in back in the day. And accuracy is only a dps issue anyway.

Pfft. You do what I did when I got started on PvP during the DvL event.

 

I read carefully all the descriptions of how Warzone bolster worked, and then went out and got my character's sticky mitts on a full set of 190-rated stuff, so that she was geared at *exactly* 190 in what is today called "Item Rating". Why? Because that was the described way to get the most out of the Expertise bolster.

 

That got me enough rewards to fully equip her with 204 PvP gear everywhere.

 

Sure, she had to carry a second set of gear and switch back and forth when queuing, but so what? She has enough inventory slots for that.

Read what you just typed. Is this a straightforward, simple and encouraging way to jump into PVP for large & diverse game population?

Go ahead devs, cater exclusively to desires of seasoned PVPers (as you've been doing with GSF) and you're on a good track to make them happy. But it won't bring in new players. On the contrary.

Why should casual players have to carry around/augment 2 sets of gear? Having a pure pve gear bolster is much more accessible.

 

As for the topic at hand the new gear is not intended for pvp players so why should it play a part in gearing a pvp player. Pvp gear progression simply means gear grind so we can stomp other players into the ground.

Because the current system takes way longer to get gear than the previous system. I believe we should listen to feedback from casual players but unfortunately, a lot of them are so casual they just don't understand how gimped this current system has made them.

With a single gear system which we have now, pvp gear cannot be obtained faster than pve gear or raiders would just nuke pvp to get gear making the progression of raids a bit wonky. Because of this the time needed to get a set of gear is SIGNIFICANTLY higher than it was just to get a pvp set in every other expansion.

The irony is, you think you have a more equal footing with this current system - and you might - eventually after grinding casually for months being destroyed by people investing more time. Naive to the point where you're willing to almost be at a constant disadvantage because you don't understand gearing.

No to pvp gear unless there was a way to swap automatically or with the click of a single button.

You click 13 more buttons. If that is too hard for you then I doubt you'll be missed in any games.

Hey folks,

 

Whenever we introduce new gear to the game, there is an inevitable conversation about what changes will be made to Bolster. As I mentioned in this thread, our original intention in 5.10 was to take Bolster and move it to 248. That thread along with the rest of the forums led to a lot of great feedback from all of you on how you feel about the state of Bolster, should it be higher, or lower, etc. That brought us to sit down and really look at what we want from Bolster now and going forward and so we are going to make an additional change. Let’s talk about why we originally landed on 248, where we are going next, and why.

 

Addressing Master Work Gear and 248 Bolster

Simply put, in order to make Master Mode Gods From the Machine as terrifying as it should be we needed to have a larger item rating jump than usual for our new gear. As many of you likely know, typically a new tier of gear means a 6 item rating differential. In this case, since we wanted to balance against a higher target we opted to introduce two item ratings of growth at 252 and 258 as a part of a single tier. Historically, we have moved Bolster to be equal to the previous tier’s best in slot item rating. In this case, that makes it 248 (which is what we chose). However, since this tier jump was different it also meant that we couldn’t be 100% consistent. By choosing 248 it means there is a 10 item rating differential, where normally this is only a 6 rating difference. Even though it is a “one tier” jump, it actually creates a larger item rating differential than there usually is. To address this, we are going to be increasing Bolster in Game Update 5.10 to item rating 252 (previously planned to be 248).

 

Also, as a reminder we are not only adjusting Bolster on gear, but also on Augments. We are increasing Augment Bolster from 208 to 236. This will additionally help in closing the gap between BiS players and those being Bolstered.

 

Bolster Beyond 5.10

A number of players have brought up the idea of having Bolster be at the highest item rating available. Effectively making gear in PvP irrelevant, where skill is the only deciding factor. Although we understand the desire from players on that side of the debate, it does introduce some issues. If there is no gear chase from PvP that removes all progression from PvP gameplay and it also removes a part of the reward structure.

 

However, we do know that there has been unhappiness with PvP gearing in general in the 5.0 era, especially with the removal of Expertise. To make large itemization changes to PvP like that will require an equally large update, so this is the type of issue we will have to wait until an expansion sized update to tackle. We will consider a variety of options including reintroducing PvP specific stats/gear, Boslter changes, etc. and we will make sure to talk through planned changes with all of you when we get to that point.

 

Let us know your thoughts.

 

-eric

You just like to screw up with every update?Pvp players told you that in pvp only skill Must decide but you still trying to put some gear behind it and in addition to this you trying to force us to grind through non-pvp content to get it. You really think that ignoring ALL PVP Players (AND there is NOT A SINGLE PVP PLAYER who actually liked your new changes about grinding gear in pve even for pvp players) is a good idea?