The reason this is being posted in the PvP forum is because of how this issue negatively affects the Republic in ranked warzones, and contributes to why Commandos (and to a lesser extent, Vanguards) are not picked up in ranked warzones.

The reasoning behind this is very simple. The entire Bounty Hunter class is stronger than the Republic Trooper counterpart because of the way that the resource system has been handled. The other option is to buff the Trooper, but why give up an opportunity to nerf Mercenaries?

The Trooper has high ammo regeneration for 4 ammo, which is 1/3 of the total ammo pool (12).

The Bounty Hunter has high heat regeneration for 40 heat, which is 2/5 of the total heat pool (100).

As many people may notice, 1/3 =/= 2/5.

As a result, Bounty Hunters have a total of 7 more heat to use. 7 heat is not enough for any ability to be cast, it does allow for easier management of heat. Not to mention that 1 ammo is equal to 8 heat (which favours the Bounty Hunter) unless a direct % comparison is available (33 heat fusion missle, 25 heat flame thrower).

Example One:

A Pyrotech Mercenary casts power surge followed by fusion missle. They can then cast rail shot when the GCD is done and be left with 36 heat (0 + 33 = 33, 33 - 5 = 28, 28 + 16 = 44, 44 - 8 = 36) and be in their high heat regeneration zone.

Example Two:

An Assault Specialist Commando that casts tech override followed by plasma grenade and then a high impact bolt will be left with 7 ammo (12 - 4 = 8, 8 + 0.6 = 8.6, 8.6 - 2 = 6.6, 6.6 + 1 = 7.6). They would then be in their medium regeneration zone. They would then regenerate 0.36 ammo and be left with 7.96 ammo and be in medium regeneration for another second.

These examples do not even touch upon the implications of a longer fight. The reason is that two Bounty Hunter 16 heat abilities = 32 heat, two Trooper 2 ammo abilities = 4 ammo which would equate to 33 heat. This would result in the Bounty Hunter getting more casts in a longer fight using the same rotation. Whilst this would rarely happen in a PvP situation, it is still a factor in the class balance.

There are two simple solutions to this mirror class imbalance. The first is to reduce the high heat regeneration zone to 33 heat. The second is to give the Trooper high ammo regeneration until 5 ammo (5/12 ~ 42 heat) which would dramatically improve the discrepancy (2 heat compared to 7). The third solution is to give both classes the same resource system. Since it has not been done in over a year, I doubt it will be done now.

EDIT: Thanks to Holmes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=btg2ofG7-zM&feature=youtu.be

http://youtu.be/GYvsw8HN654

His two videos to help prove the imbalance.

EDIT 2: Dr_Kid's thread:

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=5770270#

EDIT 3: Dr_Kid's method:

The longer the test, the greater the disparity will be. That's why my test is ideal. Two button rotation.

Ion Pulse, Hammershot, Ion Pulse, Hammershot, Ion Pulse, Hammershot, and repeat.

Count the number of Ion Pulses until you're unable to use another Ion Pulse. Repeat two more times to account for lag.

 

Bounty Hunter

Flame burst, Rapid shots, Flame burst, Rapid shots, Flame burst, Rapid shots.

Count number of Flamebursts until you're unable to activate it again. Repeat twice more to account for lag.

 

Compare the results.

I thought I'd post this as I play a Commando and I'm sick of Mercenaries complaining when they have it so well off. That, and people seem to be too pre-occupied with bubble stun and smash to even notice this issue.

Hes not kidding btw heat is better then ammo

4 tracers missles >3 grav rounds

on a side note this is a super minor prob ( not to me), and its been around since launch I highly doubt bioware is going to fix it and on another side note it could also be ( this is for merc / commandos) that dual pistols have an offhand that can miss more often then our BFuselessG;)

I would still want to shoot 4 tracer missles instead of 3 grav rounds.....

yeah its kind of an issue. i had made a fuss about this a loooong time ago, im surprised to see it brought up again.

why bioware chose to use different resource mechanics for mirror classes is beyond me. if BH can have 100 heat, why cant a Trooper have 100 ammo?

I see what the OP is saying, but of all the problems merc and commandos have, this has to be last on the list.

agreed

I play one on both sides and perform way better on my commando...how is that possible?

Because the commando looks cooler.

but why give up an opportunity to nerf Mercenaries?

 

No offense, but i think this is what you meant. Mercs do an excellant job. So do commandos. Leave them where they are.

I think it was cleared up a long time ago that Troopers actually use the same system as the Bounty Hunter and it just has a different visual representation (or vice-versa, I can't remember which).

Beyond the fact that one bar goes up and one bar goes down, there is absolutely no difference in numbers or calculations that are going on behind the scenes.

No imbalance found anywhere, no fixes needed.

I think it was cleared up a long time ago that Troopers actually use the same system as the Bounty Hunter and it just has a different visual representation (or vice-versa, I can't remember which).

 

Beyond the fact that one bar goes up and one bar goes down, there is absolutely no difference in numbers or calculations that are going on behind the scenes.

 

No imbalance found anywhere, no fixes needed.

tracer missile, 16 heat. 16/100 = .16

grav round, 2 ammo. 2/12 = .17

idk, doesnt seem like something to grab the pitchforks over, but if the devs ever get bored and actually have nothing to do, might be worth looking into

Like I said, it's the exact same mechanic, with a different visual representation. So in actual fact, it would be:

Tracer Missile, 16 heat.

Grav Round, 16 heat (but looks like 2 ammo).

However, I am unable to find the thread which had this information, so I might be misremembering and the doomsayers are actually right.

In which case, nerf bounty hunters.

Like I said, it's the exact same mechanic, with a different visual representation. So in actual fact, it would be:

 

Tracer Missile, 16 heat.

Grav Round, 16 heat (but looks like 2 ammo).

 

 

However, I am unable to find the thread which had this information, so I might be misremembering and the doomsayers are actually right.

 

In which case, nerf bounty hunters.

last i checked .17 =/= .16

like i said tho, the difference is infinitesimal in the grand scheme of the how the class is played. if bioware ever runs out of projects, they can work on this. otherwise, ive got a long list of stuff id prefer to see addressed before this

last i checked .17 =/= .16

 

like i said tho, the difference is infinitesimal in the grand scheme of the how the class is played. if bioware ever runs out of projects, they can work on this. otherwise, ive got a long list of stuff id prefer to see addressed before this

Dude. I'm trying to say that there is no mathematical difference. Troopers use heat as well, but it just looks different.

Heh.. you might want to re-read his post cashology.

The graphics and displayed numbers are rounded. The internal calculations are not rounded. An obvious example of this is found in the assassin or sorc tree when their force regen rate is 10.4. You will never ever see any decimal numbers when hovering over your actual force bar. The same is true for all talents on the sorc when specced into the 9% force cost reduction.

Well, I have both, my Trooper is at the mid lvls and I've had a Merc since launch and I can tell you that your full of ****, just overall the Commando "feels" better in almost every way and generally performs better in warzones.

That's because the Commando is better. There are three (3) reasons for this, and they all revolve around the fact that the Commando has the advantage of having only a single weapon.

1) Since the Commando does not have a low accuracy offhand weapon, he has a much lower need for Accuracy and can stack Power instead.

2) Since the Commando does not have a low accuracy offhand weapon, he triggers Retaliation/Riposte from enemy melee dps much less frequently. And enemy melee dps are the bane of Commando/Merc.

3) Since the Merc has an offhand weapon his abilities are resolved using an attack system that chops the attack into many smaller pieces. The Merc needs to get a crit hit on ALL of these multiple attacks in order to get the true burst effect from Surge. For example if both the Merc and the Commando have a 50% critical hit chance on RailShot/HiB and a 75% Surge rating, the Merc has only a 25% chance (0.5^2) of doing 175% of his base damage with RS, while the Commando has a 50% chance of doing 175% of his base damage. Thus the Commando has more burst than the Merc.

All you need to remember about class balance in ToR is one golden rule: Merc is the WORST class in the game. Period.

That's because the Commando is better. There are three (3) reasons for this, and they all revolve around the fact that the Commando has the advantage of having only a single weapon.

 

1) Since the Commando does not have a low accuracy offhand weapon, he has a much lower need for Accuracy and can stack Power instead.

 

2) Since the Commando does not have a low accuracy offhand weapon, he triggers Retaliation/Riposte from enemy melee dps much less frequently. And enemy melee dps are the bane of Commando/Merc.

 

3) Since the Merc has an offhand weapon his abilities are resolved using an attack system that chops the attack into many smaller pieces. The Merc needs to get a crit hit on ALL of these multiple attacks in order to get the true burst effect from Surge. For example if both the Merc and the Commando have a 50% critical hit chance on RailShot/HiB and a 75% Surge rating, the Merc has only a 25% chance (0.5^2) of doing 175% of his base damage with RS, while the Commando has a 50% chance of doing 175% of his base damage. Thus the Commando has more burst than the Merc.

 

All you need to remember about class balance in ToR is one golden rule: Merc is the WORST class in the game. Period.

Welcome to Slinger / sniper.

Welcome to Slinger / sniper.

The difference is that Gunslingers/Snipers have an ability to boost their Accuracy by 30%. An ability that is clearly there to benefit Gunslingers more than Snipers and give Gunslingers higher damage output than Snipers when that ability is active. Mercs have no such ability. MERC = WORST. Golden Rule. Never broken. EVER.

That's because the Commando is better. There are three (3) reasons for this, and they all revolve around the fact that the Commando has the advantage of having only a single weapon.

 

1) Since the Commando does not have a low accuracy offhand weapon, he has a much lower need for Accuracy and can stack Power instead.

 

2) Since the Commando does not have a low accuracy offhand weapon, he triggers Retaliation/Riposte from enemy melee dps much less frequently. And enemy melee dps are the bane of Commando/Merc.

 

3) Since the Merc has an offhand weapon his abilities are resolved using an attack system that chops the attack into many smaller pieces. The Merc needs to get a crit hit on ALL of these multiple attacks in order to get the true burst effect from Surge. For example if both the Merc and the Commando have a 50% critical hit chance on RailShot/HiB and a 75% Surge rating, the Merc has only a 25% chance (0.5^2) of doing 175% of his base damage with RS, while the Commando has a 50% chance of doing 175% of his base damage. Thus the Commando has more burst than the Merc.

 

All you need to remember about class balance in ToR is one golden rule: Merc is the WORST class in the game. Period.

Here are some simple calculations using the champion war hero eliminator weapons (I got the values off of torhead.com):

assault cannon = 367 - 681 (((367 + 681) / 2) = 524 average hit)

MH pistol = 306 - 567 (((306 + 567) / 2) = 436.5 average hit)

OH pistol = 306 - 567 (((306 + 567) / 2) = 436.5 average hit)

Compare 0% OH hit + MH pistol to assault cannon:

Max hit difference (681 - 567) = 114 (in favour of the cannon)

Average hit difference (524 - 436.5) = 87.5 (in favour of the cannon)

Min hit difference (367 - 306) = 61 (in favour of the cannon)

30% of OH max damage (567 * 0.3) = 170.1 (> 114)

average of hitting 67% (170.1 * 0.67) = 113.967 (~ 114)

30% of OH average damage (436.5 * 0.3) = 130.95 (> 87.5)

average of hitting 67% (130.95 * 0.67) = 87.7365 (~ 87.5)

30% of OH min damage (306 * 0.3) = 91.8 (> 61)

average of hitting 67% (91.8 * 0.67) = 61.506 (~ 61)

Compare 100% OH hit + MH to assault cannon:

MH + OH max damage (567 + 170.1) = 737.1 (> 681) (in favour of MH + OH)

MH + OH average damage (436.5 + 130.95) = 567.45 (> 524) (in favour of MH + OH)

MH + OH min damage (306 + 91.8) = 397.8 (> 367) (in favour of MH + OH)

Compare 67% OH hit + MH to assault cannon:

MH + OH max damage (567 + 113.967) = 680.967 (~ 681) (the same)

MH + OH average damage (436.5 + 87.7365) = 524.2365 (~ 524) (the same)

MH + OH min damage (306 + 61.506) = 367.506 (~367) (the same)

If the off-hand hits, a Mercenary does more damage. If the off-hand misses, the Commando does more damage. Therefore, the Mercenary will out damage the Commando in 67% of attacks that require both weapons to be used.

The Mercenary's damage is balanced around hitting the off-hand attacks less frequently. As a result, Mercenaries do not just have better resource management. They also have better burst.

Onto the main point of this post.

When Season One comes out, we should be matched in ranked warzones according to our team's rating. The system should match ratings that are close to each other. As a result, the teams should be of equal skill (or close to). Therefore, in any match-up, the Empire will have an advantage over the Republic.

I fail to see how a clear advantage to one faction is ignored in favour of complaining about issues that both factions can take advantage of. Yes, I agree with previous posters that it is a minor issue. However, with equally skilled teams (or close to) any minor advantage can make the difference.

I see that many people are trying to turn this into a Mercenary vs Commando thread. This is supposed to be a Trooper vs Bounty Hunter thread, focusing on how the Empire get an unfair advantage.

I see that many people are trying to turn this into a Mercenary vs Commando thread. This is supposed to be a Trooper vs Bounty Hunter thread, focusing on how the Empire get an unfair advantage.

To be fair, you're the one who titled the thread "Nerf Mercenaries" as opposed to "Nerf Bounty Hunters." While it's likely you meant this just to be inflammatory and incite thread views, it hardly seems reasonable to complain that others have steered the discussion in this direction.

To be fair, you're the one who titled the thread "Nerf Mercenaries" as opposed to "Nerf Bounty Hunters." While it's likely you meant this just to be inflammatory and incite thread views, it hardly seems reasonable to complain that others have steered the discussion in this direction.

You are correct. I did do that as the main focus is on Mercenaries and Commandos. I do not want this to be to the exclusion of Vanguards and Powertechs though, as they are more commonly taken in ranked warzones.

Edited Example Two on the main post to address the issues of rounding people have brought up.

That's because the Commando is better. There are three (3) reasons for this, and they all revolve around the fact that the Commando has the advantage of having only a single weapon.

 

1) Since the Commando does not have a low accuracy offhand weapon, he has a much lower need for Accuracy and can stack Power instead.

 

2) Since the Commando does not have a low accuracy offhand weapon, he triggers Retaliation/Riposte from enemy melee dps much less frequently. And enemy melee dps are the bane of Commando/Merc.

 

3) Since the Merc has an offhand weapon his abilities are resolved using an attack system that chops the attack into many smaller pieces. The Merc needs to get a crit hit on ALL of these multiple attacks in order to get the true burst effect from Surge. For example if both the Merc and the Commando have a 50% critical hit chance on RailShot/HiB and a 75% Surge rating, the Merc has only a 25% chance (0.5^2) of doing 175% of his base damage with RS, while the Commando has a 50% chance of doing 175% of his base damage. Thus the Commando has more burst than the Merc.

 

All you need to remember about class balance in ToR is one golden rule: Merc is the WORST class in the game. Period.

um, Rail Shot does not use the offhand weapon. the only Merc abilities that use offhand damage are Rapid Shots, Power Shot, Unload, and Sweeping Blasters. everything else is mainhand, and functions as such.

I will repeat myself: there isn't a mechanical difference in the resources of the BH and the Trooper - they both use heat. It's just a different visual representation.

However, I cannot find the source of this information, so it might just be pure speculation.

The only way we can test it is to take a BH and a Trooper, both level 10 and without an advanced class. Strip them of their gear, don't spend any talent points. Head to a training dummy and use Explosive Round/Missile Blast repeatedly for 10 minutes and tally the number of times each class manages to use the ability in the time period. Tests must be done on the same computer and same Internet connection, to prevent any kind of bias.

If it is true as you say and the BH has a slight advantage, this kind of repeated action will provide an obvious result.

If it ends up being exactly the same, then I've been proven right.

If the off-hand hits, a Mercenary does more damage. If the off-hand misses, the Commando does more damage. Therefore, the Mercenary will out damage the Commando in 67% of situations. They also have better burst.

This is irrelevant without taking into account the magnitude by which each side does more damage. If we have a dice game in which a 6 sided die is rolled and if a "6" is rolled you win 5 dollars and if a 1,2,3,4 or 5 is rolled I win 1 dollar, everyone knows I win 83% of the time but the game is still balanced.

What is not balanced in the Merc vs. Commando comparison are the side effects of having the offhand weapon. More gifting of retaliation/riposte to your enemies. Less ability to stack power. And less burst.

You can not argue that the multi-attack resolution of the Merc doesn't result in more averaging of damage and thus a lower chance of Surge being applied to the entire base of your nominal damage. That is basic math.

Rail Shot does not use the offhand weapon. the only Merc abilities that use offhand damage are Rapid Shots, Power Shot, Unload, and Sweeping Blasters. everything else is mainhand, and functions as such.

Thanks for the correction. Although this now brings up another issue. If RailShot uses only the mainhand weapon, then does the Commando, by virtue of having a mainhand weapon with 20% greater base damage than the Merc have a tremendous advantage there?