It might be just me, but it looks as if the PTS forums have been stripped out since the close. If they are still there, then I can't see them. Either way.....

KBN...you posted your work in the PTS forums for producing the optimal tank rotation in 2.0.

Could you please RE-POST the data so that we can continue to build and expand upon it?

It would be greatly appreciated.

Very roughly should be project on cooldown, tk on 3 stacks, slow time on cd, force breach to keep the debuff up (not on cooldown, unless you're tanking a group) double strike when everything else aside from FB is on cooldown, shadow strike when the proc is up, replacing a double strike.

This should be it.

(ofc keep kinetic ward up, though don't refresh it like mad, as there is an advantage at keeping it up till it expires).

[Edit: I've used the shadow names, replace force lightning for TK, shock for project, thrash for double strike, maul for shadow strike, discharge for force breach and dark ward for kinetic ward]

Yeah, the rotation is pretty basic, but what I'm looking for is the math that KBN did.

He had a nice little formula (actually...little is probably the wrong word) and post that compared different rotations to find optimization.

Honestly what I would *LIKE* to see is that consolidated with the Ideal Tank Stat Distribution in 2.0 thread, and get BW to sticky it for everyone's reference. You could call it "The Math Junkies Guide to Tanking"

Yeah, the rotation is pretty basic, but what I'm looking for is the math that KBN did.

He had a nice little formula and post that compared different rotations to find optimization.

The two priorities he compared were without and with Shadow Strike. In their basic form, they're largely identical to the existing priorities; the only reason they're different is because Shadow tanks will finally have the Force to actually use DS (without crippling their ability to use everything else).

The math he did compared the difference between the self healing and damage and found that there isn't really an appreciable difference between them (the pure DS string managed *slightly* better average speed on the TkT cycle but it was something like .1 seconds faster) whereas the damage when using Shadow Strike was noticeably better (something like 5% total, iirc).

The optimal priority is...

1. Force Breach (for debuff)

2. TkT (w/ 3 stacks of HS)

3. Slow Time (on CD)

4. Project (on CD)

5. Shadow Strike (w/ Shadow Wrap)

6. Double Strike (Force > 30)

7. Saber Strike

I remember the difference between the two was very marginal, time wise. The main reason for bringing it up was to be able to see the math. I am still encountering a lot of nay-sayers (including a few guildees) that are fighting the idea of using Maul. it just frustrates me that I didn't make a copy of that one post.

I'm really begining to think they only do it to A) irritate the hell out of me and B) they know I will hunt down the info which means their lazy arses don't have to.

That was the mitigation priority, I still haven't heard if he tested what the threat gen difference would be with using FB on cooldown.

Considering that it does roughly similar threat and lower damage than the rest of the abilities (since it's the only one that explicitly *doesn't* improve TkT use rate to some extent; remember, TkT is *the* most effective and efficient threat generator/damage dealer), I can pretty much guarantee you without actually looking at any math that FB spam is not going to be the best way to generate threat in an ST situation. In AoE situations, on the other hand, FB spam is pretty much your best option.

Considering that it does roughly similar threat and lower damage than the rest of the abilities (since it's the only one that explicitly *doesn't* improve TkT use rate to some extent; remember, TkT is *the* most effective and efficient threat generator/damage dealer), I can pretty much guarantee you without actually looking at any math that FB spam is not going to be the best way to generate threat in an ST situation. In AoE situations, on the other hand, FB spam is pretty much your best option.

They may be wrong but my parses say that project outweighs TK in threat gen, and that was before it got improved with an additional +15% threat (That is in real combat situations, not dummy fights, so TK is prone to get interrupted). That said, FB threat per hit wasn't that far behind other skills and has now less than half the CD it had before.

I'm not expecting it to be neither optimal nor necessary (even if it were), but I'd be curious to see the difference.

They may be wrong but my parses say that project outweighs TK in threat gen, and that was before it got improved with an additional +15% threat (That is in real combat situations, not dummy fights, so TK is prone to get interrupted). That said, FB threat per hit wasn't that far behind other skills and has now less than half the CD it had before.

 

I'm not expecting it to be neither optimal nor necessary (even if it were), but I'd be curious to see the difference.

There are some fights where Shock/Project does do more overall damage and threat than FL/TkT (usually when there is more movement, more knockbacks, or fewer opportunities to cast), but on a per-use basis, it's not even close.

FL/TkT has significantly better DPF, TPF, DPGCD, and TPGCD than Shock/Project at 3 stacks of HD/HS, but any given fight has fewer opportunities to use a 3-stack FL/TkT than opportunities to use Shock/Project, so what a parser says versus what an optimal priority says (from a DPS/TPS standpoint, not HPS) don't exactly stack up.

Most of my parses say that it's a fairly close race between Shock and FL, and if Shock wins, it's not by a 1.5x margin of victory (and you should be using 1.5 Shocks per FL, so...).

FL/TkT has significantly better DPF, TPF, DPGCD, and TPGCD than Shock/Project at 3 stacks of HD/HS, but any given fight has fewer opportunities to use a 3-stack FL/TkT than opportunities to use Shock/Project, so what a parser says versus what an optimal priority says (from a DPS/TPS standpoint, not HPS) don't exactly stack up.

Relevant part highlighted.

Now, I rely heavily on theorycrafting, but you do realize that when proven reality and theory don't coincide it's the theory that's wrong, right?

What I mean is: in optimal situation, ofc tk is going to be better for threat (and ofc you're going to use it regardless due to it being tied to mitigation as well). But the reality of an actual boss fight is that your tk WILL be interrupted quite often (or it can't be used as soon as soon available), while project, force slow and force breach will be almost always available for use.

Just in EC and TFB, bosses where a shadow will be able to use tk completely almost on time are perhaps 3: the writhing horror, the TFB (kinda, but the phases are long enough to approximate) and vorgath. All other bosses require the tank to move very often (or do KBs or other forms of interrupts, even indirect like red circles).

So I'd say that the difference is going to be quite relevant most of the time.

In the end, the optimal rotation is a simplification of reality: what is called a "model" in mathematics, physics, engineering and so on. You should strive to make reality and the model coincide when possible but it often won't be.

Just in EC and TFB, bosses where a shadow will be able to use tk completely almost on time are perhaps 3: the writhing horror, the TFB (kinda, but the phases are long enough to approximate) and vorgath. All other bosses require the tank to move very often (or do KBs or other forms of interrupts, even indirect like red circles).

This is where player experience comes into play. An experienced Shadow is going to know the times when knockback and ground effects are coming in order to prevent them from interrupting HSx3 TkT: if I want to use TkT during a phase where I might have to move to get away from red circles, I just use Resilience which lets me ignore said red circles; if there is knockback being bandied about, I simply learn when it's going to happen and delay TkT by 1-2 GCDs to prevent it from being interrupted by said knockback (and, properly played, it also doesn't interfere with further HS stack generation so there's no real negative side effect).

In every fight I have, TkT represents either the highest or second highest damage ability I get (both by a comparatively slim margin of less than 5% difference in total damage). Project swaps places with it depending on if I'm in a fight with long periods of heavy movement (twin tanks, it's hard to get a channel while you're kiting the rods, but it's easy to get in Project/Slow Time/Force Breach) or short bursts of combat where I'm liable to get TkT channels cut off by targets dying (EC Kephess, Vorgath). In fights where there aren't extended periods where I'm largely incapable of using TkT, TkT wins out handily. Of course, in 2.0, Project is losing 15% additional damage (Bombardment is going from 15% damage and 15% threat to 30% threat and 30% reduction in cost) so threat on it is getting *slightly* worse (from 1.3225 to 1.3) and the damage is getting noticeably worse. As such, TkT is, from a damage perspective, getting even better by comparison.

Keep in mind, I wasn't just pointing out that TkT does amazing *damage*. Of all of your attacks, barring Spinning Strike, TkT has the best cost effectiveness (30 Force to do more damage/threat than 2 casts of Project or Slow Time) *and* mitigation contributions (in boss situations, the self heal accounts for more damage mitigated than the 5% acc debuff *or* the 5% damage debuff). There is some argument that TkT is depending on the use of other Force Powers to be useful, but, for the purposes of our model, TkT is only "off CD" after 3 uses of Project/Slow Time so it's not really on point.

This is where player experience comes into play. An experienced Shadow is going to know the times when knockback and ground effects are coming in order to prevent them from interrupting HSx3 TkT.

True, up to a point. However you look at it you're, at the very least, delaying its use, which is still a deviation from the model (which was kinda my point). There are also situations were you're not certain on when something is about to happen (IE shield phases in twin tanks are predictable but the phase switch may depend on the tank you're not on, making an accurate prediction unlikely. Red circles in T&Z are somewhat predictable but depending on how many circles you get you may have more or less time to actually channel TK), and situations where it's almost impossible to get off a full TK (tanking firebrand in NiM due to the constant KB, or basically the whole kephess the undying fight).

The two priorities he compared were without and with Shadow Strike. In their basic form, they're largely identical to the existing priorities; the only reason they're different is because Shadow tanks will finally have the Force to actually use DS (without crippling their ability to use everything else).

 

The math he did compared the difference between the self healing and damage and found that there isn't really an appreciable difference between them (the pure DS string managed *slightly* better average speed on the TkT cycle but it was something like .1 seconds faster) whereas the damage when using Shadow Strike was noticeably better (something like 5% total, iirc).

 

The optimal priority is...

 

1. Force Breach (for debuff)

2. TkT (w/ 3 stacks of HS)

3. Slow Time (on CD)

4. Project (on CD)

5. Shadow Strike (w/ Shadow Wrap)

6. Double Strike (Force > 30)

7. Saber Strike

Late to the party, but a question. You say project on cd, but when I last played it was project on proc. Has this changed in 2.x?

Late to the party, but a question. You say project on cd, but when I last played it was project on proc. Has this changed in 2.x?

It hasn't actually been Project on proc for well over a year ("Project on proc" was pretty much only at release before we started actually calculated optimal attack priority rather than the *intended* priority).

The reason you use Project on CD rather than proc is because the value of Project is derived from the fact that it generates HS stacks. Yes, you'll do less damage per Project *use*, but you more than make up for that by minimizing the cycle time on TkT. HSx3 TkT is a *massive* portion of *super cheap* damage and threat, so cheap and damaging that it makes up for the comparatively inefficient use Project and *then* some.

You'll still get the procs sometimes (since you'll be swimming in Force so that you pretty much never touch Saber Strike and just use DS and Shadow Strike when Project and Slow Time are on CD), but, rather than being useful for the auto-crit, you actually want them for the Project CD reset, which reduces the cycle time on TkT.