So looking at the Dev post on who toons kill for companions and it turns out all the pubs kill off the Ambassador for the Mandalorians....that seems odd to me..Jedi and Republic prefer to keep a thief / pirate alive...rather then an Ambassador? Srsly does this mean the game has altered to make the Jedi and Republic the Darksiders now? According to their own lore, Torian Cadera is the AMBASSADOR to the Mandalorians...Vette is a nobody ...not an ambassador she is nothing and completely a non-entity with no useful purpose thus..the darkside option. You would think the pubs would want the Mandalorian army at their side rather then having them still supporting the imps but according to the devs...the republic and more importantly the Jedi don't care about ambassadors, they prefer to let them die. Good choice. If you just wanted to kill him off, you shouldn't have made him important. If you prefered to keep vette alive you should have gave her a better role then a useless nobody.

There is a big difference between choosing to "kill off" someone, vs choosing to save one over another. You had to choose, and Torian is the professional soldier, Vette is not.

 

Frankly this is a fairly obvious choice

Edited December 3, 2018 by MadDutchman

There is a big difference between choosing to "kill off" someone, vs choosing to save one over another. You had to choose, and Torian is the professional soldier, Vette is not.

 

Frankly this is a fairly obvious choice

 

This!

Splitting up to save both wasn't in the budget.

There is a big difference between choosing to "kill off" someone, vs choosing to save one over another. You had to choose, and Torian is the professional soldier, Vette is not.

 

Frankly this is a fairly obvious choice

 

You are right Torian is the Ambassador save him. Vette is a Pirate/ Thief..exactly like Andronikos Revel..only difference.. Revel is honest about his chosen profession.

You are right Torian is the Ambassador save him. Vette is a Pirate/ Thief..exactly like Andronikos Revel..only difference.. Revel is honest about his chosen profession.

 

I think you're missing the point a bit here.

 

A "good" Jedi would save a civilian over a trained soldier every time. Why? Because the soldier knows and accepts that they could die in battle at any time. The civilian does not. And though we can argue that Vette has done some really shady stuff, she's still not a soldier the way a Mandalorian is. Torian specifically tells you earlier that Mandalorians are prepared to face death and would rather die than live through an embarrassing defeat. Torian doesn't want to die of course, but he acknowledges that there's always a chance that the next fight will be his last.

 

As for Vette, she has likely never even contemplated her own death before, let alone prepared for it. Though we can absolutely argue about whether or not she could even be classified as a civilian, she is still much closer to being one than Torian is. And I really wouldn't equate her with Anronikos.

Imagine a scenario in which a pirate has taken a ship hostage and is threatening to kill the crew unless their demands are met. I can perfectly picture Andronikos in this situation, but with Vette, I cannot.

 

All in all, I think it really comes down to the fact that a Light-sided Jedi wouldn't judge an individual's life based on strategic significance. He or she would do what was right by saving the civilian over the soldier.

 

Of course, a grey Jedi might choose the strategically advantageous ambassador over the tiny thief, but the devs have already confirmed that the autocomplete was done with a Light-sided Jedi in mind.

-

I think you're missing the point a bit here.

All in all, I think it really comes down to the fact that a Light-sided Jedi wouldn't judge an individual's life based on strategic significance. He or she would do what was right by saving the civilian over the soldier.

 

ok you have missed the point completely plus possibly never done a consular story, nm never played a sith warrior. Vette was caught stealing from the sith temples on korriban...plus you may not like to think of vette holding ships hostage or killing people while doing it like Andronikos..but you better face it...She Did she was a PIRATE. They SAID so. Thus as you say Jedi base it on a person's life..then Torian the AMBASSADOR ..just as the Consular saved the Eshaka ..would save him over a pirate. You really need to take a second look.

Torian is a soldier, A soldiers job is to Protect civilians even if it (and it usually does) require the soldiers life, every soldier that has been on this planet knows and accepts that fact. Back on Darvannis it was Torians own clan that was around that target, when asked Torian said "Destroy the target thus sacrificing his own clan he responds "there is no choice, do it" he said

Completing the main objective was more important then the lives of his own clan

My second time thru I chose differently to save his men (have to destroy the target the other way) *Nobody was happy with that result *Even though Clan Cadera "Lives on to another day" as Shae puts it.

 

So...later on at Odessan Its Torian himself and by "His own Code" if the player chooses Vette the result from Shae's letter is "Glory for Torian", such a fine example of a Mandolorian and will be remembered forever" I ran across the Vette letter on a fan website and out of curiosity read part, I could only get about 1/3, it was doom and gloom and made me want to slit my wrists.

 

Everybody can choose who they want and should.

Edited December 4, 2018 by MikeCobalt

ok you have missed the point completely plus possibly never done a consular story, nm never played a sith warrior. Vette was caught stealing from the sith temples on korriban...plus you may not like to think of vette holding ships hostage or killing people while doing it like Andronikos..but you better face it...She Did she was a PIRATE. They SAID so. Thus as you say Jedi base it on a person's life..then Torian the AMBASSADOR ..just as the Consular saved the Eshaka ..would save him over a pirate. You really need to take a second look.

 

Oops, sorry for the misunderstanding. When I said "you missed the point a bit" I was referring to the post you were responding to, not in general. I should have elaborated.

 

But when it comes to Vette, yes she is a thief, there's absolutely no doubt there. But I still don't see how she can be classified as a pirate. She was a part of Nok Drayen's crew yes, but she was a child at the time (roughly 8 when she joined, according to her story). And since we know that Risha lost her dad at around the age of 11, Vette would have been no older when she left his crew. She then joined up with a bunch of teenagers to steal and reclaim Twi'lek artifacts before finally getting caught on Korriban. I'd be more likely to see Vette as a Robin Hood like figure over a pirate, taking from the rich and giving to the poor. And we already know she disapproves of hurting innocent people as anyone who's played an evil SW knows.

 

As for the Consular recruiting the Esh'kah for the alliance, I don't think that's really a comparable situation, since as far as my memory goes you didn't have to pick them over someone elae, but please correct me if I'm wrong.

-

I think you're missing the point a bit here.

All in all, I think it really comes down to the fact that a Light-sided Jedi wouldn't judge an individual's life based on strategic significance. He or she would do what was right by saving the civilian over the soldier.

 

ok you have missed the point completely plus possibly never done a consular story, nm never played a sith warrior. Vette was caught stealing from the sith temples on korriban...plus you may not like to think of vette holding ships hostage or killing people while doing it like Andronikos..but you better face it...She Did she was a PIRATE. They SAID so. Thus as you say Jedi base it on a person's life..then Torian the AMBASSADOR ..just as the Consular saved the Eshaka ..would save him over a pirate. You really need to take a second look.

 

You're missing not only the civilian/militar point, but also the fact that you're assuming that saving a Mandalorian ambassador, those who kill for sport, is better than a thief who steals to survive.

I'll explain again the Mandolorian death part. On Darvannis when the main target base was destroyed and took Clan Cadera with it, every Mando including Shae considered it a "Justified Act", they died so the mission could be completed, a "Glorious Death". Think the Kilingons, Predator or nearly every soldier when they first join "Go down in a hail of gunfire and all that glory" To the Mando's if the death is connected to finishing, winning, its good, celebrated even. Nobody wants to die, but if you do let it be great and winning at the same time is even better.

 

My 2nd time going thru Darvannis was a Jedi so I chose the "Less casualties" option and chose *Not to bombard the main base target. the instant I chose that the first words Torian spoke were "Your choice, not mine" (Sounds like he didn't want that). The main base was cleared out with no friendly causalities then speaking with Shae when she said "Clan Cadera gets to live to another day (Or something like that ) she was not in a happy, good, relieved voice (She didn't like that). In the end Torian was a good guy and Vette is a good girl, but Torians death is understandable by everybody (Celebrated by the Mando's) while Vettes death is not a happy day, to anybody in the Alliance.

 

Everybody should play the way they like, its their game, their story, but were all different and we all have different values, each important and equal.

 

You're missing not only the civilian/militar point, but also the fact that you're assuming that saving a Mandalorian ambassador, those who kill for sport, is better than a thief who steals to survive.

 

Ok , let me ask you this...you really think that a person who goes to work 9 to 5 at mcdonalds every day , and then has a night job..( yeah that was me when i was younger to support my education) should have some Thief walk in take whatever they want because oh..i can't get an honest job ( b.s they can work at a **** job if they didn't feel it was "beneath them" like vette obviously did) over an honest to god Soldier ( Which my family is ( Rcmp and military). In this case, puts their lives on the line for their family and beliefs Strength and development through combat...and they Don't hunt the weak...unlike the Republic who DID causing mass Genocide on the empire in the first sith wars AFTER they won..leaving only a handful of survivors to escape into deep space. Really and when the Mandalorian Ambassador comes to help and your toon has a chance to cause meaningful change..you throw it away on a common PIRATE and Thief....darkside choice.

A soldiers job is to Protect civilians

A soldier's job is to fight the fights his commanders tell him to fight(1), or to support his comrades who are fighting that fight, according to the situation. Sometimes, that means protecting civilians, but more often it involves:

* Attacking and (potentially) killing enemy soldiers.

* Attacking enemy installations, whether military or not, and, as a consequence, possibly killing enemy civilians.

* Holding ground (occupied solely by "friendly" soldiers) against enemy attack

* and a long, long, list of other things.

 

(1) Subject, perhaps, to some caveats about lawful orders.(2)

 

(2) The late Mrs Cynic was very clear about that. Some years before I met her, she had been in the US Air Force, and even at the time we met, she was still in the Air National Guard, and she was very clear that while orders are orders, the person receiving them is not (in US military practice) obliged to obey *illegal* orders.

A soldier's job is to fight the fights his commanders tell him to fight(1), or to support his comrades who are fighting that fight, according to the situation. Sometimes, that means protecting civilians, but more often it involves:

* Attacking and (potentially) killing enemy soldiers.

* Attacking enemy installations, whether military or not, and, as a consequence, possibly killing enemy civilians.

* Holding ground (occupied solely by "friendly" soldiers) against enemy attack

* and a long, long, list of other things.

 

(1) Subject, perhaps, to some caveats about lawful orders.(2)

 

(2) The late Mrs Cynic was very clear about that. Some years before I met her, she had been in the US Air Force, and even at the time we met, she was still in the Air National Guard, and she was very clear that while orders are orders, the person receiving them is not (in US military practice) obliged to obey *illegal* orders.

 

Three tours, Infantry, and I'm still carrying some of it around with me. Me and the other Soldiers did the fighting to keep the enemy away from the citizens, stop them before they spread. This is protecting them (Citizens)(Typically helpless when facing armed soldiers). Orders *Are orders and when soldiers don't follow them other people die (Soldiers and Civilians).

 

Ex. If you don't move up (possibly Under fire) who will cover your cohort when he moves up ? a pause here could lose the momentum of the assault thus giving the advantage *Back to the ready defender so you accrue More casualties.

Soldiers do the fighting so the civilians don't have to face them. They understand and accept they may have to *** so that citizens don't have to; Torian knew that.

 

I did that scene last night, it was Torian as the choice again, He understood ("I know how this ends") He just said "Don't let me die in vain" that means Let this lead to Killing Vaylin. I did so his death (that he and everybody else accepts) lead to Defeating Vaylin and stopping/Winning the Zakuul war. That's a Glorious Death any Mandolorian would be proud of.

Edited December 6, 2018 by MikeCobalt

Oops, sorry for the misunderstanding. When I said "you missed the point a bit" I was referring to the post you were responding to, not in general. I should have elaborated.

 

But when it comes to Vette, yes she is a thief, there's absolutely no doubt there. But I still don't see how she can be classified as a pirate. She was a part of Nok Drayen's crew yes, but she was a child at the time (roughly 8 when she joined, according to her story). And since we know that Risha lost her dad at around the age of 11, Vette would have been no older when she left his crew. She then joined up with a bunch of teenagers to steal and reclaim Twi'lek artifacts before finally getting caught on Korriban. I'd be more likely to see Vette as a Robin Hood like figure over a pirate, taking from the rich and giving to the poor. And we already know she disapproves of hurting innocent people as anyone who's played an evil SW knows.

 

 

This. Vette grew up as a slave. She went into the profession of pirating as a child. She was trying to support herself and stay free. When she's stealing Twi'lek artifacts she's also giving them back to Ryloth to try to preserve Twi'lek heritage, and most of her companion story is about her trying to help her family. She's not malicious and as you said, in the class stories/Makeb/Ilum she greatly disapproves of hurting innocent people and needless cruelty.

 

Even with the money the Alliance steals from the Zakuulan treasury, Vette specifically says she's giving it to Twi'lek causes. Calling her just a thief and a pirate really doesn't explain who she really is. Considering the PC took part in grand theft of the Zakuulan treasury and there's an entire department of the Alliance that deals with the underworld. they're not exactly innocent either.

 

Torian on the other hand has no problem blowing up the Mandalorians in the factory out of "honor" instead of giving them a chance to leave. His entire creed is to die in the glory of battle. He's far more of a soldier than Vette, who is terrified of dying and has much less of a chance of saving herself than Torian does.

 

Also, from the ambassador standpoint, if you have Shae Vizla in your Alliance you've got Mandalore right there and Torian's not needed to serve that role.

Edited December 7, 2018 by IoNonSoEVero

What Vette was doing is the same thing(s) as Beryl Thorne from early in the Smugglers story. Stealing cultural artifacts from the corrupt to return to their rightful culture; I don't see this as Theft so much as *Recovery from the undeserving. In the smugglers story SWTOR writers saw this as shady yes but still "The Right Thing to Do". Considering Vette's happy, bubbly personality and what her friends talk about on Nar Shadda I'm sure B.W.'s intent was the same.

https://imgur.com/6YNKpq7

 

While Vette and Risha were together (Under Nok Drayen) I'm sure more intense things were going on (Andronikos level Piracy) but considering Both Risha and Vette both have a strong dislike for hurting the Innocent/weak I really doubt they were actively doing any of the *Hurting (I would Imagine Risha was learning about the planning and setting up new opportunities; after all she is the boss's daughter) BioWare considers this a noble cause if still illegal (More Rep corruption due to greed). Remember Vette is the S.W.'s class "Anti Hero". not "Like the rest, not dark, evil".

Edited December 7, 2018 by MikeCobalt

It is unfair to let Torian die because he's the last member of clan Cadera, while Vette has a sister ( no one said Tivva is dead ) that might have had children of her own.