I know its early on in the game, but does anyone know which spec/build is more powerful atm, i have only tryed Deception atm and wanting to see peoples views on Madness, is it good? is it a match to deception? better? (or even which one is more enjoyable)

thx

Once you get Force in Balance, Circle of Death (w/e its name in madness) madness becomes amazing.

Its less directionally challenged than deception, and can roflstomp gold elites and silvers much easier.

That said, once you get to voltaic slash as deception most of its weaknesses go away, and its just a playstyle choice, ramp up DOT damage with AOE, or proc based single target burst.

Madness?!

THIS IS STARWAAAAARS!

I haven't tried Deception yet, but i can give some thoughts on Madness up to lvl 30.

Madness is a really weird DPS build, its pretty much a short ranged caster spec, your mostly working at the 10m range. Pve your doing very nice dmg, but PvP you just dont have the survivability or burst for 1v1's, however you can really rack up the dmg in groups when people arent paying attention to you.

While VS makes some improvements to your dps, it doesn't change the way you play, as far as I am aware it simply replaces trash skill, providing similar damage and procs with the added flavor of 30% extra dmg on shock at 2 stacks.

You don't have to maul to do good dmg (let's say solo quests etc), as in your dmg is not gimped without mauling. Maul is only worth to use with FW proc up, otherwise as many other peeps sugested, is not worth the dmg / force cost.

To give you a short comparission, I have a 30 JC balance sage, blue / purple / orange geared. Highest crits are ~500-600 top, with TK tick crits ~260-300. I already push 1k+ mauls with FW and trinket, shock and discharge crit into 700, while being 6 levels lower. So I'd presume a Madness sin would get similar numbers on dots. Death field is nice, but has a large CD, it can crit (force in balance for sage) up to 700+. What annoyed me was even as sage, my tumult was critting 1.2k lol

Compared to my Concealment Operative the damage of Sin deception feels higher sustained, and you can still burst well with 2xFW procs (chained) discharge and induction, and unlike Agent, you don't gimp your regen if you push in the lower zone of resource bar.

Let me preface this by stating that I'm only lvl 18 and haven't really "crunched" any number...just eye balling the talent trees if you will.

After reading the sticky, it seems that the author believes that Deception is the most "martial" and best of the assassin's builds. After just eye balling the talents, I have a few questions.

How much difference is there between surging discharge and lightening discharge? Is surging discharge light years better? Is its discharge effect that much better?

What is the difference in attack dmg (excluding the shock buff) between Voltaic and Madness specced Thrash? Also, it appears that the tooltips on TOR HAS to be wrong...it states that at Max lvl thrash deals more than double the damage of Maul.

I'm really enticed by the madness spec and have been thanking about switching over at 30. I guess I'm just wondering about the cost and gain of it. What am I losing by switching to madness and what am I gaining. I would lose Induction, surging charge, darkswell, and deceptive power, but I would gain parasitism, death field, and claws of decay. Advantage Madness I think...I lose a bit of dmg from induction but gain quite a bit from Death field and claws of decay. I lose the utility of darkswell, and surging charge...but until I know how much a difference surging charge is from Lightening charge I'm just gonna call it a wash. Moving up, I would lose static charges and saber conduit...both are kinda meh IMHO, but losing low slash would hurt. I would gain Deathmark, Raze, and Unearthed Knowledge. Death mark looks amazing, Raze seems good, but how reliable is it? Unearthed Knowledge needs some explaining...what exactly is "bonus" dmg??? Advantage...I'm not sure, but deathmark does seem really good. Moving up....losing crackling blasts hurts...hurts bad, but I gain devour and creeping death, so it equals out in my mind. Advantage...equal. Last but not least is Voltaic vs Creeping Terror. The only way for me to know for sure is to compare Voltaic vs Madness Thrash...how big a difference is there? According to TOR's tooltip Thrash is our hardest hitting melee ability (that cant be right...hits harder than maul at max lvl???). It would make sense that if Thrash>Voltaic that adding Creeping Terror just sweetens the pot.

I guess after pondering the different abilities it all boils down to this. How much difference is there between Voltaic and Thrash, how much weaker is Madness Maul, and whats the difference dmg wise between Surging and Lightening charge proc and discharge? If they are only slightly weaker in a Madness build, the added spells of Madness seems worth it. I would just play as if I was a Deception Assassin with beefier spells.

Any and all help is appreciated. I know the post is rambling..i guess its just one of those stream of consciousness types posts.

Let me preface this by stating that I'm only lvl 18 and haven't really "crunched" any number...just eye balling the talent trees if you will.

After reading the sticky, it seems that the author believes that Deception is the most "martial" and best of the assassin's builds. After just eye balling the talents, I have a few questions.....

I'm a noob myself, but I'll just comment on some things that I understand so far.

The difference between surging and lightning charges is that the prior is instant burst and the latter is DOT. Nobody would really know which one is better over the other, but if you spec into Madness, Parasitism will be triggered by the lightning discharge and will heal you.

And many people who do spec into Madness say Raze is the reason why they spec into that tree. Free Crushing Darkness with no cast is simply amazing IMO. Plus, this also gives DOT so will heal you if it crits.

I don't know if the heal is anything that will save my *** when I'm low in hp, but it's better than nothing i guess?

I don't know if the heal is anything that will save my *** when I'm low in hp, but it's better than nothing i guess?

The "heals" that these abilities give is very minuscule. It never got me out of a crunch that I could tell, so I switched to deception. Having played both trees now (in the lvl 30 range) I can tell you that, as far as damage, they seem about the same. The differences are that deception has a MUCH easier rotation compared to madness imo, but, when dealing with multiple mobs, I greatly miss death field and the improved WW. I think that it is going to come down to someone making some spreadsheets and crunching numbers to find the true king of these two builds. I'd also like to mention that this is all based on pve combat.

tl;dr: As of now, I'd say that the choice comes down to personal preference and what is important to you (i.e. easy damage rotation on single target, or more aoe dmg)

Can I go madness at 26? Or should I wait

Til 30+?

Deception and madness is more about delivery method. Deception has the most raw damage potential. I can shock someone for 5k when all my procs align (2x voltaic slash, 2x induction, chain shock tier 2 in madness, and both critting), discharge for 3k, and maul for 3k when the proc is up (harder in pvp due to movement issues so in pvp i ignore maul against non-stationary targets), plus it also has access to 3k assassinate but so does madness.

However madness relying on DoTs can produce stable damage and is more force efficient due to raze and calculating mind.

For PvP i would say madness is mediocre since DoT stacking in pvp is annoying but in PvE for long fights madness probably wins on the count of it being more cost effective. In a short fight like PvP or against non champion+ mobs deception probably wins just due to the fact that it can tear anyone down in one or two rotations.

I would say pick the play style you like the most and/or fits the situation you are going to be in.

I pretty much love the Madness tree.

It seems like a rather stable tree, DPS wise. It feels like it can dish out some good sustained damage.

There's a good synergy between Force Powers and Melee Powers, and the rotation (or priority system, i'd rather say) is way funnier than the deception one.

Plus, you can keep on fighting even while running away from a target, due to its medium range attacks.

I'm 32, right now, and the gameplay is great.

I think both specs shine in pvp, but madness is more fit for taking down tank types and mantain pressure on a healer etc, while Deception is more for flashy burst to kill important targets, ie: that JC sage needs to die now!

Any other sin using Tumult during stun or low slash incapacitate? How is the dmg compared to a EW Maul?

I don't have assassinate yet, only lvl 28 so can't comment on that, but yes would be nice if the dmg is worth the force cost (if it has any?), as often you get a target to 30-25% hp and low on force, no charges for reduced shock cost, and discharge even talented still has a 12s cd.

I think both specs shine in pvp, but madness is more fit for taking down tank types and mantain pressure on a healer etc, while Deception is more for flashy burst to kill important targets, ie: that JC sage needs to die now!

 

Any other sin using Tumult during stun or low slash incapacitate? How is the dmg compared to a EW Maul?

 

I don't have assassinate yet, only lvl 28 so can't comment on that, but yes would be nice if the dmg is worth the force cost (if it has any?), as often you get a target to 30-25% hp and low on force, no charges for reduced shock cost, and discharge even talented still has a 12s cd.

I took tumult off my hotbar when i got assassinate. Not because assassinate really replaces its functionality, but because its functionality sucks, and putting in assassinates when i get the oportunity is enough extra filler to ensure my other cooldown attacks are always ready when i need them.

If tumult did full damage to strongs it may have been worth keeping, but honestly normal and weak enemies die in like 3 hits anyway

I use low slash to set up mauls

I haven't tried Deception yet, but i can give some thoughts on Madness up to lvl 30.

 

Madness is a really weird DPS build, its pretty much a short ranged caster spec, your mostly working at the 10m range. Pve your doing very nice dmg, but PvP you just dont have the survivability or burst for 1v1's, however you can really rack up the dmg in groups when people arent paying attention to you.

This. I've been leveling Madness and I'm at lvl 23 now. Death Field is amazing. It's a little screwy at 20 when it costs 50 Force, but at 21-22 when it's only 25 Force it becomes all kinds of awesome.

And for those who may notice other threads I've said I'm leveling as a tank, I've tanked every FP so far as Madness with Dark Charge up and had no problems whatsoever. I'm going to be using a hybrid Darkness/Madness spec at 50 for FPs.

I took tumult off my hotbar when i got assassinate. Not because assassinate really replaces its functionality, but because its functionality sucks, and putting in assassinates when i get the oportunity is enough extra filler to ensure my other cooldown attacks are always ready when i need them.

 

If tumult did full damage to strongs it may have been worth keeping, but honestly normal and weak enemies die in like 3 hits anyway

 

I use low slash to set up mauls

Yeah can't wait for assassinate, but until then on silvers and lower ranks of mobs which can get stunned / incapacitated is still very good dmg when low on force or wait for cds (is better dmg than another trash when you already have inductionx2 buff up and shock on cd etc).

Ive played Madness for PVP and PVE and i must say that i really love the root/dot it has. The rotation really isn't as difficult as people say and defiantly isn't harder than deception except that you have use Death field properly(meaning not break ccs etc) ALso the fact that you have to first aim death field AND then click might waste some time.

A dislike i had with Madness is that you have to watch your buffs to know when you can instant cast your Crushing Darkness. I guess same could be said about deception with Exploit Weakness. However, an easy fix to this would be to make the ability light up when either one of those occur.

As far as what spec is better id say that they are very much equal and that it really comes down to what the individualize likes.

I've played both. I played Deception till 30 then Madness to 50. I've gone back and forth between the two at 50 a few hundred times if feels like this is my take on it. You should level as deception until you are high enough level to get Death Field and the talents that reduce it's force cost. After that madness easily out damages deception. The healing effects from madness are negligible so don't think you are going to be doing a ton of self healing. Once you hit 50 it all depends on what you want to do. If you are going to do a lot of pve (and by pve I mean heroic flash points, operations) then you absolutely have to be madness. Don't let other people fool you deception is not even close to the damage output that madness has in pve, and as your gear scales madness just keeps getting better and better. Even when I give tanks time I have yet to find a tank that can hold aggro I have to vanish every boss fight because I pull aggro.

Now then for PVP it's not as cut and dry. Me personally I had to stop with the respec's because the cost to respec is way out of hand for me already. If you want the big crit and burst in pvp then deception is the way to go. That being said as deception spec you won't beat a good tank spec player or a good healer. Assuming you are not going to go hybrid with darkness (which is what I would do if I was full time pvp) I would say deception is the best 1v1 pvp build and probably the best build to go if you are going to be solo que'ing for warzones. If you go deception though be ready to be kited to death over and over again. Like I said tho because of my respec cost being so absurd I just stay my standard pve madness spec. Now I must say I have a heal bot operative that always que's with me for warzones so that greatly influences how I am able to play, but madness isn't bad at all for pvp either. Creeping terror is so amazingly nice to have in pvp it's a 30m root I cannot even begin to tell you how many times I have used that to slow someone down so I can catch up. Also the dot damage is really great for killing healers/tanks because it allows you to keep constant pressure on them. I only have 7 pieces of champion gear atm so it's hard to say how much better/worse the burst will be with deception once you are fully decked out. I can say without a doubt though a full pvp spec is going to HAVE to have some darkness in it both deception and madness are glass cannon specs and without my healer buddy I'd die so damn fast every match it would be silly.

I've played both. I played Deception till 30 then Madness to 50. I've gone back and forth between the two at 50 a few hundred times if feels like this is my take on it. You should level as deception until you are high enough level to get Death Field and the talents that reduce it's force cost. After that madness easily out damages deception. The healing effects from madness are negligible so don't think you are going to be doing a ton of self healing. Once you hit 50 it all depends on what you want to do. If you are going to do a lot of pve (and by pve I mean heroic flash points, operations) then you absolutely have to be madness. Don't let other people fool you deception is not even close to the damage output that madness has in pve, and as your gear scales madness just keeps getting better and better. Even when I give tanks time I have yet to find a tank that can hold aggro I have to vanish every boss fight because I pull aggro.

 

Now then for PVP it's not as cut and dry. Me personally I had to stop with the respec's because the cost to respec is way out of hand for me already. If you want the big crit and burst in pvp then deception is the way to go. That being said as deception spec you won't beat a good tank spec player or a good healer. Assuming you are not going to go hybrid with darkness (which is what I would do if I was full time pvp) I would say deception is the best 1v1 pvp build and probably the best build to go if you are going to be solo que'ing for warzones. If you go deception though be ready to be kited to death over and over again. Like I said tho because of my respec cost being so absurd I just stay my standard pve madness spec. Now I must say I have a heal bot operative that always que's with me for warzones so that greatly influences how I am able to play, but madness isn't bad at all for pvp either. Creeping terror is so amazingly nice to have in pvp it's a 30m root I cannot even begin to tell you how many times I have used that to slow someone down so I can catch up. Also the dot damage is really great for killing healers/tanks because it allows you to keep constant pressure on them. I only have 7 pieces of champion gear atm so it's hard to say how much better/worse the burst will be with deception once you are fully decked out. I can say without a doubt though a full pvp spec is going to HAVE to have some darkness in it both deception and madness are glass cannon specs and without my healer buddy I'd die so damn fast every match it would be silly.

just respec'd to madness to try it out. What companion do most recommend for PvE leveling? I'd assume Talos just to keep the downtime pretty low. Or would it be better for a dps companion who can add to the aoe crazyness like Andronikos Revel?

Let me preface this by stating that I'm only lvl 18 and haven't really "crunched" any number...just eye balling the talent trees if you will.

After reading the sticky, it seems that the author believes that Deception is the most "martial" and best of the assassin's builds. After just eye balling the talents, I have a few questions.

 

How much difference is there between surging discharge and lightening discharge? Is surging discharge light years better? Is its discharge effect that much better?

 

What is the difference in attack dmg (excluding the shock buff) between Voltaic and Madness specced Thrash? Also, it appears that the tooltips on TOR HAS to be wrong...it states that at Max lvl thrash deals more than double the damage of Maul.

 

I'm really enticed by the madness spec and have been thanking about switching over at 30. I guess I'm just wondering about the cost and gain of it. What am I losing by switching to madness and what am I gaining. I would lose Induction, surging charge, darkswell, and deceptive power, but I would gain parasitism, death field, and claws of decay. Advantage Madness I think...I lose a bit of dmg from induction but gain quite a bit from Death field and claws of decay. I lose the utility of darkswell, and surging charge...but until I know how much a difference surging charge is from Lightening charge I'm just gonna call it a wash. Moving up, I would lose static charges and saber conduit...both are kinda meh IMHO, but losing low slash would hurt. I would gain Deathmark, Raze, and Unearthed Knowledge. Death mark looks amazing, Raze seems good, but how reliable is it? Unearthed Knowledge needs some explaining...what exactly is "bonus" dmg??? Advantage...I'm not sure, but deathmark does seem really good. Moving up....losing crackling blasts hurts...hurts bad, but I gain devour and creeping death, so it equals out in my mind. Advantage...equal. Last but not least is Voltaic vs Creeping Terror. The only way for me to know for sure is to compare Voltaic vs Madness Thrash...how big a difference is there? According to TOR's tooltip Thrash is our hardest hitting melee ability (that cant be right...hits harder than maul at max lvl???). It would make sense that if Thrash>Voltaic that adding Creeping Terror just sweetens the pot.

 

I guess after pondering the different abilities it all boils down to this. How much difference is there between Voltaic and Thrash, how much weaker is Madness Maul, and whats the difference dmg wise between Surging and Lightening charge proc and discharge? If they are only slightly weaker in a Madness build, the added spells of Madness seems worth it. I would just play as if I was a Deception Assassin with beefier spells.

 

Any and all help is appreciated. I know the post is rambling..i guess its just one of those stream of consciousness types posts.

How does your Thrash with buffs and all compare to your Voltaic strike? Just wondering if the 50% extra crit dmg makes it hit harder than VS? Also how different are your shocks minus the 50% crit bonus.