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Is your SSD REALLY faster than your hard drive? Or do you just assume so?

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > General Discussion > Off-Topic
Is your SSD REALLY faster than your hard drive? Or do you just assume so?

BuriDogshin's Avatar


BuriDogshin
11.14.2014 , 02:06 PM | #21
Quote: Originally Posted by Heal-To-Full View Post
You just zeroed your credibility with this statement.
Speaking of credibility, where are your studies supporting your claims that SSDs are less reliable than HDDs?
We've seen several people post studies that show the exact opposite.

Put up or shut up. Because otherwise, you just look like an ignorant poser who read a few web articles and jumped to a conclusion. I have done processor and platform architecture for a living for over two decades, so your shenanigans are wasted on me.
Going Preferred January 31, 2015.

Transcendent's Avatar


Transcendent
11.14.2014 , 02:06 PM | #22
Interesting methodology. How did you get around the differences between which instance you get put into and the server loads deciding which instances you get put into?

Also how did you apply the difference for the variances of the different server loads at different times of the day? Equally how did you take into account the ISP loads, and the variances that causes? Did you turn off all automatic updates / updates checks that could affect Disk I/O and your network data packet flow?

I'd like to point out it's not really an accurate testing methodology, purely on the basis that you are testing purely the client side of the equation, without taking into account the server side of the equation and what may be happening on that end to affect loading times. Without that data your testing is flawed to an extent.

As a final note from personal experience on your reliability points. I've been running 4 x Crucial C300 64GB in Raid 0 on my personal machine for 4 years with no issues to date (not even from the firmware bricking them fiasco). YMMV.

Thanks to everyone who has used my Refer a Friend link over the years, may the force be with you.

Heal-To-Full's Avatar


Heal-To-Full
11.14.2014 , 02:07 PM | #23
Quote: Originally Posted by BuriDogshin View Post
read a few web articles
Wrote a few.
SSD are ~as reliable as HDD on average - but SSD failures are completely sudden, unexpected and total, as likely the first year as the second or the fourth, a PC will turn off and not turn back on, with none of the data on it recoverable - as opposed to HDD failures, most of which are preceded by SMART warnings, noises, severe loss of performance, and overall age.


Quote: Originally Posted by BuriDogshin View Post
That you might have gotten unlucky, or hooked some SSDs to cheap power supplies that fried them with low quality power,
So tell me more - was it my Antec CP-1000, or my Seasonic Gold, or my Seasonic Platinum 1000 I run now that fried my SSD?

Quote: Originally Posted by BuriDogshin View Post
or put them in systems with inadequate cooling that caused them to overheat,
...or was it "ineadequate cooling" of SSD you just said consume 0.1 watts?


Quote: Originally Posted by BuriDogshin View Post
Precision-machined high-speed rotating media with repositionable heads flying impossibly close above it is a technology whose time is past, and the only reason to use it these days is because it's cheap.
Well I guess... Hey, what car did you use today to get home from work?

Was it Porsche 918?

Was it Tesla Model S?

Or was it some filthy BMW 328 or Ford Mondeo or Lexus IS, a technology whose time is past, and the only reason to drive it these days is because it's cheap?
What we must fight for is to safeguard the existence of the Sith race and the Sith people, the glory of our children and the purity of our blood, the freedom and independence of the Empire, so that we may fulfill the mission allotted us by the Force itself. Everything must be examined from this point of view and used or rejected according to its utility.

Malastare's Avatar


Malastare
11.14.2014 , 02:13 PM | #24
Quote: Originally Posted by DOHboy View Post
Not sure what you were trying to accomplish other than give anecdotal evidence of a complex system.
Agreed.

Quote: Originally Posted by DOHboy View Post
SSDs are much better where you have static data written once and read many times
HHD are better where you require random access to different data or are writing data more than reading.
Nope. SSDs are better in all measures except one: Price per GB. HDDs are only better for bulk storage. SSDs have long since overcome their "slow" write performance (which was still far better than HDDs). While they still have a limited number of writes, subjecting a hard drive to the same number of writes drastically increases their chance of total failure.

Quote: Originally Posted by DOHboy View Post
Is also why having more memory with an SSD is helpful since virtual memory accessed on an SSD is a very BAD idea. Putting your movie library on an SSD is a good thing if you don't change movies that often. Having a database of daily inventory and stuff like that, generally not so good on an SSD.
These are all very old ideas. Here's what microsoft has to say about the pagefile:

"Should the pagefile be placed on SSDs?

Yes. Most pagefile operations are small random reads or larger sequential writes, both of which are types of operations that SSDs handle well."

And any datacenter worth its cat5 is switching over to SSDs for almost everything --OS, webserver, database, logging, etc. The only applications that aren't using it are large volume streaming and low-cost backup.

Quote: Originally Posted by DOHboy View Post
But a new SSD will blow a brand new HDD out of the water on Read times, be a wash on write times, and will be anemic on random access times. Where the HDD shines is in volume per $$$ and random access.
You haven't been paying attention to SSD's have you:

The currently favorite SSD for value (Crucial MX100 512GB) vs. a favorite "fast" HDD (WD Black 2TB):

2MB Sequential Read:
WD Black: 133 MB/s
MX100: 498 MB/s

2MB Random Read:
WD Black: 60.65 MB/s
MX100: 454.08 MB/s

4K Random Read:
WD Black: 0.33 MB/s
MX100: 30.19 MB/s

4K Random Write:
WD Black: 0.65 MB/s
MX100: 94.21 MB/s

Write Latency:
WD Black: 5.98 ms Average
MX100: 0.041 ms Average


Seems like the SSD absolutely destroys the HDD in every single measurement, thrashing it particularly badly in random-write latency and random access times, with another particularly lopsided win in in the random write times.

Quote: Originally Posted by DOHboy View Post
Think of it this way, treat the SDD like a CD-rw/DVD-Rw.
No. Don't think of them that way. That's not at all close to reality.

Perhaps you think that SSDs are the same as SD cards and thumb drives. They're not. They have sophisticated controllers and some of the biggest strengths of SSDs are the random access read/write times and their blazing fast latency.

BuriDogshin's Avatar


BuriDogshin
11.14.2014 , 02:18 PM | #25
Quote: Originally Posted by me
or put them [SSDs] in systems with inadequate cooling that caused them to overheat,
Quote: Originally Posted by Heal-To-Full View Post
...or was it "ineadequate cooling" of SSD you just said consume 0.1 watts?
Wow, you are really reaching now, and not doing yourself any favors in the process.

Anyone with a clue about PC building understands that the heat generated by one component (like a CPU or GPU) can have a detrimental effect on other components (like an SSD) in "systems with inadequate cooling." Since you appear to not understand that, perhaps we now know how you bricked those SSDs.

Quote: Originally Posted by Heal-To-Full View Post
Well I guess... Hey, what car did you use today to get home from work?
Boy, talk about obsolete tech. My commute to work is walking upstairs to my office. You still drive, huh?
What, are you a luddite? Or maybe a fast-food worker?

Now, once again: where are your studies showing that SSDs are less reliable than HDDs?
Or did you just make that up?
Going Preferred January 31, 2015.

Malastare's Avatar


Malastare
11.14.2014 , 02:24 PM | #26
Quote: Originally Posted by Heal-To-Full View Post
You just zeroed your credibility with this statement.

...

Not just most, but virtually all SSD failures in the wild, i.e. outside of endurance testing in a lab, have resulted in little aluminum bricks.
Citation please.

I've been working with datacenters for ten years. They find malfunctioning SSDs on blades a few times a month (but that is apparently still 30-50% less than they did with HDDs), and the majority of their failures are detected by the OS. They dump the logs to backup, re-image a new drive, restore the logs and move on.

Quote: Originally Posted by Heal-To-Full View Post
I won't bother to reply to the rest because, while most of the data you presented is correct, your credibility has been zeroed.
Translation: "I won't talk to you, because you refuted a bunch of things I stated as facts, but you had experience that didn't match mine, so I'm going to claim that you are the one with no credibility".

Noted.

Heal-To-Full's Avatar


Heal-To-Full
11.14.2014 , 02:25 PM | #27
Quote: Originally Posted by BuriDogshin View Post
Anyone with a clue about PC building understands that the heat generated by one component (like a CPU or GPU) can have a detrimental effect on other components (like an SSD) in "systems with inadequate cooling."
Well, I don't.

Perhaps I'm stupid.

Perhaps my Antec P-193 case is inadequate.

Perhaps I indeed don't understand how the heat generated by my CPU and GPU in the back of my case, some of it exhausted by my fans, also in the back of my case, the rest carried by my D5 pump to my MORA well outside the case, would have a detrimental effect on my SSD - mounted in a separate compartment, in the lower front of my case, with fans taking in fresh cool air ahead of them, blowing right on these SSD.

So it's up to you to explain to me - how?

And why did two SSD, which are supposed to be more reliable and not to give a crap about temperature, die a sudden death, why only one HDD over my 25 years of computing and close to a hundred hard drives, a worthless Seagate to boot, has done that, while subjected to the same temperature plus its own heat?


Yeah, I know I just got really lucky with HDD (being very picky about them) and unlucky with SSD, because I've been an early adopter, buying crappy Intels as early as 2008 and not waiting for quality companies like Micron to enter the game. But a lot of people got unlucky that way. A lot more people get unlucky, because they keep buying OCZ and Worstbuy and Kingcrap and whatnot.

But that's the reality ordinary users face. Sh-tty Intel/Worstbuy/Kingcrap SSD that will fail with zero warning, not advanced corporate SSD in RAID60 arrays. Unless they back them up to HDD, of course, like any functional person will, but then they don't get the weight savings or the noise savings, and the "reliability advantage" is the same as just having two HDD.
What we must fight for is to safeguard the existence of the Sith race and the Sith people, the glory of our children and the purity of our blood, the freedom and independence of the Empire, so that we may fulfill the mission allotted us by the Force itself. Everything must be examined from this point of view and used or rejected according to its utility.

Transcendent's Avatar


Transcendent
11.14.2014 , 02:30 PM | #28
Quote: Originally Posted by Heal-To-Full View Post
why only one HDD over my 25 years of computing
Wow, you were lucky, I was forever doing RMAs for failed HDD.

Thanks to everyone who has used my Refer a Friend link over the years, may the force be with you.

Malastare's Avatar


Malastare
11.14.2014 , 02:31 PM | #29
Quote: Originally Posted by Heal-To-Full View Post
And why did two SSD, which are supposed to be more reliable and not to give a crap about temperature, die a sudden death, why only one HDD over my 25 years of computing and close to a hundred hard drives, a worthless Seagate to boot, has done that, while subjected to the same temperature plus its own heat?
The plural of anecdote is not evidence.

BuriDogshin's Avatar


BuriDogshin
11.14.2014 , 02:32 PM | #30
Quote: Originally Posted by Heal-To-Full View Post
Perhaps I'm stupid.
/thread
Going Preferred January 31, 2015.