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Transgender Representation in Swtor

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Story and Lore
Transgender Representation in Swtor

Lenlo's Avatar


Lenlo
07.20.2019 , 02:48 PM | #41
Diversity for diversity's sake often ends up being a cringey parody of itself. Do it right or don't do it at all.
Quote:
can you make sword in box light sword so sword come out when opened? then if sword is back after sword, use light saber on box, and saber will be boxed after sword is out. - Battlebug
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Ricul's Avatar


Ricul
07.31.2019 , 08:51 PM | #42
Why are people so obsessed with sex?
. R.I.P. OPOD

RamboJay's Avatar


RamboJay
08.01.2019 , 06:29 AM | #43
Please gods no, we don't need any more virtue signaling in games... that nonsense happens too much already.

When they force that kinda stuff in games to get woke points it's always done awkwardly and with as much subtlety as a punch in the nose. If they could incorporate it organically to the world/story that would be just fine, it's not the content itself that is problematic, at least for most folks. It's the way the devs so transparently value appearing woke over making their game actually good for their players that is the problem with this kind of garbage.

ceryxp's Avatar


ceryxp
08.01.2019 , 01:02 PM | #44
Quote: Originally Posted by Ricul View Post
Why are people so obsessed with sex?
I don't know. Why do people keep confusing sex with gender?


Quote: Originally Posted by RamboJay View Post
Please gods no, we don't need any more virtue signaling in games... that nonsense happens too much already.

When they force that kinda stuff in games to get woke points it's always done awkwardly and with as much subtlety as a punch in the nose. If they could incorporate it organically to the world/story that would be just fine, it's not the content itself that is problematic, at least for most folks. It's the transparent way in which the devs value appearing woke over making their game actually good for their players that is the problem with this kind of garbage.
This old argument is ready to be shipped off to Shady Pines to share a room with Sophia. Those who want to deny inclusivity often fall back on claiming that [whatever is the subject of the discussion] should not be inclusive for the sake of inclusiveness because then it is forced, it is virtue signaling, they just want to be or appear "woke," or they are just kowtowing to the PC / snowflake / safe space / Millennial crowd. When BW added Lord Cytharat was that being inclusive for the sake of inclusiveness? On Oricon when they referenced a Trooper who kept having visions of killing his husband, was that inclusivity for the sake of inclusiveness? Or when they did that again in Fallen Empire when the Knight sends you a letter thanking you for letting him go home to his husband? There is no denying that some examples of inclusiveness are done rather poorly and without taste or sensitivity to the subject, but the claim that something should not be inclusive for the sake of inclusiveness is a red herring. It is an argument designed to distract from the topic. That topic being an obvious and blatant lack of inclusiveness. Let us stop pretending that inclusivity is a bad thing. Instead let us state our real argument. Either you want better representation with characters that are not caricatures, where their being queer is not the central facet to their character, or simply a trope used to tell the tragic tale of the poor unfortunate queer person (or the other oft used trope of the British accented bad guy), or the truth is you just don't want those characters in your media. You are okay that those characters exist, that those people exist (or maybe you're not), just so long as you do not have to acknowledge their existence.

The one thing I do agree with that others have said; I question not whether they should include a trans character but how they could and should incorporate a trans character where them being trans in not the central facet to their story. As with the Trooper on Oricon and Knight in Fallen Empire, them being trans should not be the sole reason for this character to exist. Their being trans needs to be treated as mundane as the queer Trooper and Knight.
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RamboJay's Avatar


RamboJay
08.01.2019 , 03:01 PM | #45
Quote:
Those who want to deny inclusivity
I have no problem with inclusion, as I even spelled out in my original comment, as long as it's organic to the game world/story. It's the shoehorned, caricature-like, type of "inclusion" that I have a problem with, and that isn't because I just "don't want to have to acknowledge the existence" of trans folks as you so boldly assume, it's simply because it lowers the quality of the game. That is all. If they want to add in well fleshed out, complex, characters who are also trans I have zero issue, but it doesn't help anyone, including trans folks, or the game if they add characters who's entire identity is being trans. And let's be realistic here, if they add trans characters because of this post, or other similar requests, they are by definition adding them for the sake of inclusion and they most likely won't be good characters... well written, dynamic characters are added to help tell the story, not prove to the internet that your inclusive enough. Now ofc there can be exceptions, it's possible to add characters to a story for solely inclusive reasons and still have them be will rounded and complex characters, but you don't have to spend much time looking to see that in practice that rarely is the case. The vast majority of characters in games/shows/movies that are there for inclusive reasons are laughably bad and drag the quality of the product down.

I guess my main beef is with lazy, one-dimensional, boring characters. And it's pretty undeniable that this thing of requiring every piece of media to be inclusive of every minority group is causing more one-dimensional characters to be added to cover rear-ends.

The funniest part is you say my argument is bad and needs retiring... yet you agree with almost all of my complaints on the issue. Caricatured versions of characters that only exits to be trans/gay/whatever isn't good for anyone or any cause. And hey, maybe I'm totally off base with my concern here, perhaps Bioware will flawlessly incorporate well-written and compelling trans characters in a way that doesn't degrade the quality at all. I sincerely hope so, and if so my entire argument can be ignored in regards to this game (tho I think it's still a problem in general with the entertainment industry, but that's another post). My point is simply that these type of inclusivity games, more often than not, results in more of the caricature types being shoehorned in.

Lenlo's Avatar


Lenlo
08.01.2019 , 04:55 PM | #46
Quote: Originally Posted by RamboJay View Post
I have no problem with inclusion, as I even spelled out in my original comment, as long as it's organic to the game world/story. It's the shoehorned, caricature-like, type of "inclusion" that I have a problem with, and that isn't because I just "don't want to have to acknowledge the existence" of trans folks as you so boldly assume, it's simply because it lowers the quality of the game. That is all. If they want to add in well fleshed out, complex, characters who are also trans I have zero issue, but it doesn't help anyone, including trans folks, or the game if they add characters who's entire identity is being trans. And let's be realistic here, if they add trans characters because of this post, or other similar requests, they are by definition adding them for the sake of inclusion and they most likely won't be good characters... well written, dynamic characters are added to help tell the story, not prove to the internet that your inclusive enough. Now ofc there can be exceptions, it's possible to add characters to a story for solely inclusive reasons and still have them be will rounded and complex characters, but you don't have to spend much time looking to see that in practice that rarely is the case. The vast majority of characters in games/shows/movies that are there for inclusive reasons are laughably bad and drag the quality of the product down.

I guess my main beef is with lazy, one-dimensional, boring characters. And it's pretty undeniable that this thing of requiring every piece of media to be inclusive of every minority group is causing more one-dimensional characters to be added to cover rear-ends.

The funniest part is you say my argument is bad and needs retiring... yet you agree with almost all of my complaints on the issue. Caricatured versions of characters that only exits to be trans/gay/whatever isn't good for anyone or any cause. And hey, maybe I'm totally off base with my concern here, perhaps Bioware will flawlessly incorporate well-written and compelling trans characters in a way that doesn't degrade the quality at all. I sincerely hope so, and if so my entire argument can be ignored in regards to this game (tho I think it's still a problem in general with the entertainment industry, but that's another post). My point is simply that these type of inclusivity games, more often than not, results in more of the caricature types being shoehorned in.
TLDR: the Character's gender or gender identity needs to be incidental and not feel "token". Best example I've seen so far in RPGs recently is Krem from Dragon Age: Inquisition. While not explicitly trans, she does identify as male, and it's really only a minuscule detail to the character that some players may even completely miss.
Quote:
can you make sword in box light sword so sword come out when opened? then if sword is back after sword, use light saber on box, and saber will be boxed after sword is out. - Battlebug
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Rolodome's Avatar


Rolodome
08.04.2019 , 02:32 AM | #47
I think my only concern would be how to do it. Presumably to get it right, you'd want to have a character who has some sort of story about being transgender that comes out as part of who they are in some way. The only place I can think of where this game gets into that much detail (where a character is talking about aspects of their personal life) is in romances or crew companion conversations (and we're long past the detail of crew companions at this stage). So perhaps they could do a romance involving a transgender character. That would probably be the most effective way to work in the detail necessary, without misportraying it.

Though given how much they are neglecting at this point with their minimal resources, it's hard to imagine them working it in on top of everything else.

Still, if Bioware gets a chance to do more RPGs like this one, not just maintaining it, maybe we will see more exploration of those kind of areas at some point.

Quote: Originally Posted by FlameYOL View Post
Have you played any recent Bioware games? They've been very progressive lately.
It's weird. SWTOR seems to have a very, erm... "old school" audience overall (at least, out of the vocal ones). But Bioware is one of the most progressive game companies out there and has been for as long as I've known.
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buddydogputin's Avatar


buddydogputin
08.07.2019 , 08:07 PM | #48
We don't want people to boycott though.

Bonzenaattori's Avatar


Bonzenaattori
08.12.2019 , 06:39 PM | #49
I miss the good ol' days, when we were simple people, and we were just happy to have a protagonist and a plot, and some twists and betrayals...
Now we're deliberating over what gender they need to be, or don't need to be.

Have we gone too far?

WaveRun's Avatar


WaveRun
08.14.2019 , 10:28 AM | #50
Quote: Originally Posted by Bonzenaattori View Post
I miss the good ol' days, when we were simple people, and we were just happy to have a protagonist and a plot, and some twists and betrayals...
Now we're deliberating over what gender they need to be, or don't need to be.

Have we gone too far?
Representing ALL PEOPLE is NOT too far

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