Vader is kinda like Malgus, Refinement is well questionable.

On the other hand Anakin is uncontrolable at times taking their adversaries completely off-guard simply put Anakin would finish Vader as he did with Dooku, which was a "refined" adversary.

I think its considering how much conversation about Vader is done, most of us arent wanting to dig up a bunch of information on this subject from other posts or the sources and such, its just a lot of stuff with this character.

Well if this is all folks have got to back up their claims...

What? You want me to elaborate?

Edit: Those were only my personal thoughts on the subject.

What? You want me to elaborate?

what stalement? Again? No:mad:

What? You want me to elaborate?

No elaboration required on Vader's bad@ssery.

No I'm referring to the opposition lol.

 

No elaboration required on Vader's bad@ssery.

Ah, well I think I probably will elaborate, simply to voice my full opinion on the subject.

Obiwan beat Anakin, Vader beat Obiwan. Do the math

Due to various circumstances that favored Obi-Wan, really Obi-Wan should have lost to Anakin by all accounts.

Due to various circumstances that favored Obi-Wan, really Obi-Wan should have lost to Anakin by all accounts.

Why? The only favourable circumstance I can think of is that Kenobi knew Anakins style, but that's true the other way around as well.

Why? The only favourable circumstance I can think of is that Kenobi knew Anakins style, but that's true the other way around as well.

Why? The only favourable circumstance I can think of is that Kenobi knew Anakins style, but that's true the other way around as well.

The entire match Anakin was blinded by his rage and not thinking straight or about the enviroment at all. Kenobi on the other hand was constantly trying to gain a terrain advantage, which he eventually succeeded in. Thus favorable circumstance.

If you not right before the end, when Obi-wan is saying "i have failed you anakin, I have failed you" and Anakin says "this is the end for you my master" that Obi-wan is clearly the more tired of the 2. Had it been on even terrain that was never shifting, Obi-wan never would have won.

The entire match Anakin was blinded by his rage and not thinking straight or about the enviroment at all. Kenobi on the other hand was constantly trying to gain a terrain advantage, which he eventually succeeded in. Thus favorable circumstance.

 

If you not right before the end, when Obi-wan is saying "i have failed you anakin, I have failed you" and Anakin says "this is the end for you my master" that Obi-wan is clearly the more tired of the 2. Had it been on even terrain that was never shifting, Obi-wan never would have won.

Those are not favourable circumstances, those are character strengths and weaknesses. Anakin's rage is his own shortcoming, and Obi-Wan's excellent use of terrain is a proof of his tactical superiority. It's like saying Anakin beat Cin Drallig because of favourable circumstances, which circumstances are he is a better duelist and stronger in the force

Those are not favourable circumstances, those are character strengths and weaknesses. Anakin's rage is his own shortcoming, and Obi-Wan's excellent use of terrain is a proof of his tactical superiority. It's like saying Anakin beat Cin Drallig because of favourable circumstances, which circumstances are he is a better duelist and stronger in the force

The point wolf was trying to make was that Anakin was the better duelist and the stronger force user, but his mentality got in his way.

He lost in the mind not in any actual skill or strength duel.

Anakin was the more skilled fighter then Obi-wan, he was the more powerful Force user, but because mentality and circumstances Obi-wan won.

Why? The only favourable circumstance I can think of is that Kenobi knew Anakins style, but that's true the other way around as well.

You're right that they knew one another's fighting style, but Anakin was also hindered by his emotional/mental state and Obi-Wan was also able to gain a tactical advantage with the high ground. Barring all that, Anakin is the better duelist and more powerful in The Force than Obi-Wan is and if he wasn't hindered by his emotional state Anakin should have won the fight.

The point wolf was trying to make was that Anakin was the better duelist and the stronger force user, but his mentality got in his way.

 

He lost in the mind not in any actual skill or strength duel.

Yes Anakin was stronger in the force but he wasn't a better DUELIST. Mentality and tactics are as much part of dueling as anything else. Even in the BattleZone!™ it counts.

Physicality: probably Anakin since he was younger

Force Abilities: Anakin

Lightsaber skills: Obi-Wan

Despite being stronger in the force and being phisically fitter Anakin couldn't break through Obi-Wan's defense in one of the longest duel of all time.

Mentality: Obi-Wan

He was a better dueling tactician and Anakin was blinded by rage.

In the end Obi-Wan won because he was a better all around duelist and NOT because of "circumstances".

Anakin was the more skilled fighter then Obi-wan, he was the more powerful Force user, but because mentality and circumstances Obi-wan won.

Again what circumstances are you talking about? The only way Obi-Wan wouldn't have won if they fought in a locked small empty room without anything exploitable by Obi-Wan. And that would be a circumstantial win for Anakin not the other way around.

You're right that they knew one another's fighting style, but Anakin was also hindered by his emotional/mental state and Obi-Wan was also able to gain a tactical advantage with the high ground. Barring all that, Anakin is the better duelist and more powerful in The Force than Obi-Wan is and if he wasn't hindered by his emotional state Anakin should have won the fight.

I still don't understand why you think those are "various circumstances that favored Obi-Wan". Anakin was young and relatively untrained so he was mentaly weak. Obi-Wan was a great tactician so he could exploit the terrain, which Anakin could've done himself but he didn't. All I see is that Obi-Wan was better and not "circumstances".

Yes Anakin was stronger in the force but he wasn't a better DUELIST. Mentality and tactics are as much part of dueling as anything else. Even in the BattleZone!™ it counts.

 

Physicality: probably Anakin since he was younger

Force Abilities: Anakin

Lightsaber skills: Obi-Wan

Despite being stronger in the force and being phisically fitter Anakin couldn't break through Obi-Wan's defense in one of the longest duel of all time.

Mentality: Obi-Wan

He was a better dueling tactician and Anakin was blinded by rage.

 

In the end Obi-Wan won because he was a better all around duelist and NOT because of "circumstances".

 

 

 

Again what circumstances are you talking about? The only way Obi-Wan wouldn't have won if they fought in a locked small empty room without anything exploitable by Obi-Wan. And that would be a circumstantial win for Anakin not the other way around.

Anakin is the better duelist as stated by Nick Gillard. Also yes Anakin's emotional/mental state was part of the reason Anakin lost.

Anakin had still been between worlds then, and vulnerable.

 

Source: Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth Vader

It was Anakin's overconfidence, fueled by the dark side, which led to his defeat.

 

Source: Lightsabers: A guide to the weapons of The Force

Anakin is the better duelist as stated by Nick Gillard.

Where?

Going by feats I'd say Obi-Wan was more skilled with the lightsaber. At that point Anakin's most notable victories were Dooku and Cin Drallig, against Dooku he had the lightsaber form advantage and Cin was an old battlemaster outclassed in the force.

In the other hand Obi-Wan defeated Maul twice, once he was just a padawan and Maul a Darth and the 2nd time Maul had Savage with him who was a formidable duelist as well.

Part of the definition of skill:

a : the ability to use one's knowledge effectively and readily in execution or performance

b : dexterity or coordination especially in the execution of learned physical tasks

In both of these instances, Anakin failed. Yes, his state of mind hindered him but being able to remain focused and calm are key to being able to use knowledge effectively. But that is still part of being skilled.

Knowing how to keep yourself calm and focused is just as important and knowing where to stick the lightsaber.

Despite being stronger in the force and being phisically fitter Anakin couldn't break through Obi-Wan's defense in one of the longest duel of all time.

Sith and Jedi have dueled for days on end...

Just sayin

Sith and Jedi have dueled for days on end...

 

Just sayin

Really? I don't remember any that lasts longer than minutes. Source? (out of curiosity, not that I don't believe you)

Really? I don't remember any that lasts longer than minutes. Source? (out of curiosity, not that I don't believe you)

One of Tol Braga's duels comes to mind.

Where?

 

Going by feats I'd say Obi-Wan was more skilled with the lightsaber. At that point Anakin's most notable victories were Dooku and Cin Drallig, against Dooku he had the lightsaber form advantage and Cin was an old battlemaster outclassed in the force.

In the other hand Obi-Wan defeated Maul twice, once he was just a padawan and Maul a Darth and the 2nd time Maul had Savage with him who was a formidable duelist as well.

Obi-Wan has never beaten Maul, he didn't beat him as a Padawan nor when he was a Jedi Master, their first encounter Obi-Wan was losing, the fight between him, Maul and Savage was a stalemate and even then Maul owned Obi-Wan with TK.

At any rate Anakin > Maul

As for the quote from Nick...

So, on The Phantom MenaceObi-Wan would have been like a level six or seven. Now that we're on Episode III he's actually a level eight. When you move up the levels, it affects the style of fighting."

 

"Hayden Christensen is one of the best there is," says Gillard. "I've seen hundreds of sword fighters, people who do it for a living, and he leaves them all in his wake. His style has changed a bit since Episode II, when he was only a level seven. On this he's a level nine."

 

- Nick Gillard HomingBeaon #126

So...yes...Anakin is superior to Obi-Wan and again he only won due to

1. Anakin's emotions hindering his ability

2. Obi-Wan knowing his fighting style inside and out.

3. High ground advantage at the end.

Obi-Wan has never beaten Maul, he didn't beat him as a Padawan nor when he was a Jedi Master, their first encounter Obi-Wan was losing, the fight between him, Maul and Savage was a stalemate and even then Maul owned Obi-Wan with TK.

Then what do you call chopping someone in half?

The best Maul could do is pushing Kenobi away and collapsing the tunnel when THEY WERE LOSING already.

As for the quote from Nick...

That quote didn't sound very "canon-y", I mean EP2 Anakin is 7, EP3 Obi is 8 and EP3 Anakin is 9 then what is Vader, Windu, Yoda, Sidious or Luke??

So...yes...Anakin is superior to Obi-Wan and again he only won due to

 

1. Anakin's emotions hindering his ability

 

2. Obi-Wan knowing his fighting style inside and out.

 

3. High ground advantage at the end.

1. Mentality is part of dueling, if he can't focus he isn't a good duelist.

2. Anakin knew Obi-Wan's as well

3. Which he made for himself. Since when is tactical thinking is a circumstance?

You can say that Anakin was stronger and maybe even more skilled with the lighsaber but he wasn't a better DUELIST.