I saw a thread on reddit with the same subject but there were conflicting answers. My questions are:

1.) If you use an alacrity buff before using a DoT and then automatically refresh that DoT (Lightning, Affliction or Retractable Blade for AP), will it still benefit from the alacrity buff?

2.) If you use an alacrity buff before using a DoT and then manually refresh that DoT before it wears off, will it still benefit from the buff?

2.) a) If so, is it worth it for Madness to always keep the Polarity-Shifted DoTs up?

3.) Does the game calculate the crit% for each DoT tick the moment it happens? Meaning, if I use a crit adrenal while a DoT is up, is that a dps increase?

4.) If I spread my DoTs, do those DoTs have the same alacrity as the original DoT? What if the original DoT is unbuffed but I use an alacrity buff right before spreading?

As far as I know..... Damage is calculated when the damage tick... Same for crit chance. Alacrity is another story.

When you reapply a debuff, the game reapply the exact same debuff with the exact same duration... This mean if you're DoT lasted 15s (Polarity Shift DoT), the reapplication before it wears off would reapply a 15s DoT. The problem is you must get the most out of your DoTs but reapply before it wears off.

I haven't studied rotations enough, but.... Advanced Prototype, Lightning, Madness and maybe a few other could all beneficy of alacrity DoT'ing...

Another problem is this bug would limit your target switching (except for Lightning And AP) so you would need to know two rotations so you can switch between them if you can't alacrity DoT up the next target.

I haven't studied rotations enough, but.... Advanced Prototype, Lightning, Madness and maybe a few other could all beneficy of alacrity DoT'ing...

A guildy tested it and apparently it's a net DPS gain. I don't know the exact number, but your DoT ticking faster really augments your DPS.

1.) If you use an alacrity buff before using a DoT and then automatically refresh that DoT (Lightning, Affliction or Retractable Blade for AP), will it still benefit from the alacrity buff?

Yes, but only for the duration of the alacrity buff. Once the alacrity buff falls off, the DoT slows down again. This can be problematic for rotations that use multiple DoTs (e.g. IO, Pyro, Madness, etc), since one DoT has been accelerated (cumulatively) more than the other DoT, resulting in a more significant desync.

2.) If you use an alacrity buff before using a DoT and then manually refresh that DoT before it wears off, will it still benefit from the buff?

Yes, but just as with above, once the alacrity buff is gone, the DoT slows down.

2.) a) If so, is it worth it for Madness to always keep the Polarity-Shifted DoTs up?

Uh… no. You want to try to avoid applying DoTs during Polarity Shift, and instead use PS immediately after their application. The reason for this is two fold. First, as I mentioned above, you don't want to desync your DoT durations through asymmetric alacrity application (alliteratively). Second, and more importantly in Madness's case, you want to make sure that the GCD between your DoTs (which both Madness and Lethality preserve) remains exactly a GCD. If you apply during an alacrity window, and that alacrity window closes before you reapply, your DoTs will end less than a GCD apart from each other, meaning that you will have some downtime that might cause problems (e.g. with Force Leech).

Now, using PS after DoT application will speed up the DoT tick rate (because, remember, every calculation is relative to the current state of your character), but it will speed the DoTs up symmetrically and avoid generating gaps in the rotation.

The best approach with Madness (and with Lethality) is to use Polarity Shift immediately after the second DoT is applied.

3.) Does the game calculate the crit% for each DoT tick the moment it happens? Meaning, if I use a crit adrenal while a DoT is up, is that a dps increase?

Yes. Don't use crit adrenals though as they are not as much of a DPS increase as the power adrenals.

From the game's perspective, each tick of a DoT is a bit like if you had activated a fresh ability at that exact instant. It recalculates based on your buffs and the target's debuffs. This is actually very easy to see on a dummy. Click off your class buffs. Apply Creeping Terror and observe a few ticks, then hit your class buffs. You'll see the DoT ticks go up in value (for maximal accuracy, remove your relics beforehand).

4.) If I spread my DoTs, do those DoTs have the same alacrity as the original DoT? What if the original DoT is unbuffed but I use an alacrity buff right before spreading?

Nope. Basically the same as the answer to question 1.

All of these questions hint at a core mechanic that SWTOR's combat system does not have, which is to say, snapshotting. Snapshotting is a well-known technique in Diablo 3, as well as many other RPGs and MMOs. A common example from D3 would be a Monk applying Divine Palm (a debuff that explodes on damage) only during the "cold" proc of Convention of Elements ring (an item which rotates through four extremely strong damage buffs, each buff lasting 1 second). These palm applications would "snapshot" the buff state of the caster and hold onto that snapshot until detonated, even if the CoE buff had moved on from the snapshotted state.

In games with snapshotting (like D3), timing of delayed damage activation is what is important. SWTOR doesn't have snapshotting though, and every damage calculation happens relative to the fight state in the moment, and so timing of delayed damage application (i.e. when you see the flytext) is the important bit. This holds for every effect in the game, including DoTs, channels, buffs/debuffs, etc.

Snip

Thank you for your detailed answer! I used to play a Monk but apparently I should've paid more attention to the mechanics.

Since posing the question I've tried 2) on the dummy. I used Polarity Shift and reapplied the DoTs manually - they'd always last the shorter, alacrity-reduced duration. When I applied the DoTs, then used PS and reapplied them, they still had the longer duration. Didn't try it for Lightning and auto-refresh but it seems like the general consensus among Lightning Sorcs is to use PS before Affliction.

So what does that mean? Does the DoT slow down but its duration stays the same? That'd make it quite terrible to use DoTs during PS. Is the text wrong? Or did they change the mechanics?

Thank you for your detailed answer! I used to play a Monk but apparently I should've paid more attention to the mechanics.

:-) Snapshotting is really important for Uliana's Monks, and was previously somewhat important for Static Charge (irrelevant now that SC has been nerfed). It's also extremely important for Arcane Orb DMO Wizards (snapshotting the AO cast at 5 arcane dynamo stacks). Short-duration effects in Diablo are actually so potent that a tiny, tiny change to how snapshotting interacts with the Bane of the Stricken in 2.4 actually resulted in a dramatic DPS reduction for many classes on high-GR elite packs.

/offtopic

Since posing the question I've tried 2) on the dummy. I used Polarity Shift and reapplied the DoTs manually - they'd always last the shorter, alacrity-reduced duration. When I applied the DoTs, then used PS and reapplied them, they still had the longer duration. Didn't try it for Lightning and auto-refresh but it seems like the general consensus among Lightning Sorcs is to use PS before Affliction.

 

So what does that mean? Does the DoT slow down but its duration stays the same? That'd make it quite terrible to use DoTs during PS. Is the text wrong? Or did they change the mechanics?

How did you do your testing? In other words, exactly how did you determine the DoT duration? Absent a hilarious bug, you should notice a proportional reduction in your DoT duration (and corresponding increase in tick rate) when using Polarity Shift after DoT application. In fact, you would actually get a slightly more pronounced effect than you would see if you applied your DoTs under Polarity Shift, since 100% of the alacrity boost would be happening within the effect duration.

If this weren't working, then any class with a rigid rotation timed around DoT applications and cooldowns (or GCDs) would be broken right now. Notably: IO, Pyro and Virulence.

As a sidebar, when playing Lightning, you should use Polarity Shift after applying Affliction in your opener. Outside your opener it's irrelevant, since Affliction is auto-refreshing anyway. Specifically, the standard Lightning opener:

(precast) Crushing Darkness > Affliction > Polarity Shift > Adrenal > Unlimited Power >

Thundering Blast > Lightning Strike > Recklessness > Lightning Flash > Chain Lightning > etc…

I just applied Affliction, then used PS and applied CT. Of course CT would be shorter in duration but it'd stay that way even after refreshing DoTs without any alacrity.

I did a parse to check the effects and count ticks but to be honest I'm too lazy to have a closer look now. If anyone wants to see themselves, here's the parse http://parsely.io/parser/view/140090

Tried it with Lightning. PS before Affliction means it's 15s (or 14.4, I just read the DoT duration ingame). Every time it's refreshed with CL it's reapplied with the same duration. Even if you manually reapply it.

Yes, but only for the duration of the alacrity buff. Once the alacrity buff falls off, the DoT slows down again. This can be problematic for rotations that use multiple DoTs (e.g. IO, Pyro, Madness, etc), since one DoT has been accelerated (cumulatively) more than the other DoT, resulting in a more significant desync.

I may not understand well, but i think you're wrong.

The dot mechanism seems to be an 'independant' debuff on the target. So the alacrity changes on the caster do not affect the dots when they are on the target (increase or decraese).

When applying a dot (on a target that has not the debuff on it) under alacrity bonus (polarity shift, adrenal, commando class buff), the debuff duration on the target is reduced, and the tickrate increase in proportion.

When refreshing this dot (I mean applying the dot on a target that already has it active), the debuff timer restarts from 0. So as long the debuff does not fade on the target, the "alacrity effect" from the buffed one remains.

If you pop polarity shift before refreshing a "normal" dot on a target, the effect is... nul. The duration of the "active dot" will be set to 0, the alacrity will not have any effect on the duration and the tickrate of the dot.

What you point with rotation issues is true, tho. Any dot cannot be used this way : to be effective, the dot HAS to be re-applied before it fades. Depending the spec used, that should be very tricky to find proper rotations that reaapply the dot just before it fades (minimum loss) without delaying anything important. Some other spec have automatic-dot-re-applied-side-effect.

And concerning the dot spreading, I never did any test. It could function... or not. It depends on how the spread was coded.

I may not understand well, but i think you're wrong.

 

The dot mechanism seems to be an 'independant' debuff on the target. So the alacrity changes on the caster do not affect the dots when they are on the target (increase or decraese).

When applying a dot (on a target that has not the debuff on it) under alacrity bonus (polarity shift, adrenal, commando class buff), the debuff duration on the target is reduced, and the tickrate increase in proportion.

When refreshing this dot (I mean applying the dot on a target that already has it active), the debuff timer restarts from 0. So as long the debuff does not fade on the target, the "alacrity effect" from the buffed one remains.

If you pop polarity shift before refreshing a "normal" dot on a target, the effect is... nul. The duration of the "active dot" will be set to 0, the alacrity will not have any effect on the duration and the tickrate of the dot.

 

What you point with rotation issues is true, tho. Any dot cannot be used this way : to be effective, the dot HAS to be re-applied before it fades. Depending the spec used, that should be very tricky to find proper rotations that reaapply the dot just before it fades (minimum loss) without delaying anything important. Some other spec have automatic-dot-re-applied-side-effect.

 

And concerning the dot spreading, I never did any test. It could function... or not. It depends on how the spread was coded.

If this is the case, then IO, Pyro and Virulence would all suffer from very noticeable rotation issues any time they're in a fight where the merc raid buff is used at the wrong time. This would be particularly noticeable in the case of IO, since DoTs are applied at the very start of the opener. All it would take is for the alacrity buff to be delayed from the fight start by half a second for the DoTs to end up clipped later in the rotation.

I'm not saying that's definitively not the case. 4.0 introduced a lot of bugs in the combat math, so I guess I wouldn't be too surprised if this were an issue. I would just be surprised if no one noticed it before now.

If this is the case, then IO, Pyro and Virulence would all suffer from very noticeable rotation issues any time they're in a fight where the merc raid buff is used at the wrong time. This would be particularly noticeable in the case of IO, since DoTs are applied at the very start of the opener. All it would take is for the alacrity buff to be delayed from the fight start by half a second for the DoTs to end up clipped later in the rotation.

 

I'm not saying that's definitively not the case. 4.0 introduced a lot of bugs in the combat math, so I guess I wouldn't be too surprised if this were an issue. I would just be surprised if no one noticed it before now.

Here:

http://i.imgur.com/AoOsZd8.png

As you can see, before MA, WM ticks every 3 second. After MA, it starts ticking every 2.4s. If you refresh it by re-applying the dot or by casting TKWave/MC, it will continue to refresh at 2.4s rate as long as it doesn't fall off. So applying MA before first WM application is a nice DPS increase.

I have no idea if this is intentional or not but it has been like this since 4.0. And yes, Commando raid buff absolutely does mess up some sustained specs. If you run such a spec, it is probably best to just let it fall off and re-apply.

KeyboardNinja. I did the test about two months ago after reading something about it in the Sorc/Sage forum. DoTs applied under alacrity affects are always affected by these alacrity affects as long as they don't fall off.

The game resets the exact same debuff when you reapply it if it's still on. Test it on a Sorc. it works as I said sooner. I don,t play these class right now, And my theorycrafting for AP isn,t ready but I'm retty sure an alacrty adrenal would net a DPS gain due to 1 extra RB tick for everytime you have 6s between your RS which is quite often. I just need to math out how much time you need for it to win over the damage lost from power adrenal during your high CD's.

It is absolutely a DPS gain for Lightning since it is reseted way less often than in AP. For Madness, it would be a DPS gain if you can ALWAYS resets them at the 13.5s mark (they would last 15s after Polarity Shift being factored.. maybe closer to 13.5s if you add an alacrity adrenal).

For Pyro and IO, it's a clear DPS loss. For Virulance, it doesn't matter if you use the 3-cull rotation. For Lethality, I think it is a DPS loss, but I can't be sure. For Hatred, I don't know.

KeyboardNinja. I did the test about two months ago after reading something about it in the Sorc/Sage forum. DoTs applied under alacrity affects are always affected by these alacrity affects as long as they don't fall off.

 

The game resets the exact same debuff when you reapply it if it's still on. Test it on a Sorc. it works as I said sooner. I don,t play these class right now, And my theorycrafting for AP isn,t ready but I'm retty sure an alacrty adrenal would net a DPS gain due to 1 extra RB tick for everytime you have 6s between your RS which is quite often. I just need to math out how much time you need for it to win over the damage lost from power adrenal during your high CD's.

 

It is absolutely a DPS gain for Lightning since it is reseted way less often than in AP. For Madness, it would be a DPS gain if you can ALWAYS resets them at the 13.5s mark (they would last 15s after Polarity Shift being factored.. maybe closer to 13.5s if you add an alacrity adrenal).

For Pyro and IO, it's a clear DPS loss. For Virulance, it doesn't matter if you use the 3-cull rotation. For Lethality, I think it is a DPS loss, but I can't be sure. For Hatred, I don't know.

This is basically insane. :-S It means that alacrity is not working quite the way that it is supposed to be, and the standard sorc dps rotations (for both specs) need to be adjusted accordingly. It's not much of a difference for Lightning (since you're just moving Polarity Shift up one GCD in your opener), but it absolutely affects Madness to a significant degree. It also makes downtime quite punishing for both specs.

This is basically insane. :-S It means that alacrity is not working quite the way that it is supposed to be, and the standard sorc dps rotations (for both specs) need to be adjusted accordingly. It's not much of a difference for Lightning (since you're just moving Polarity Shift up one GCD in your opener), but it absolutely affects Madness to a significant degree. It also makes downtime quite punishing for both specs.

Concerning balance downtime, it is bad but not that much : it is OK to let the dots fade in order to get boosted ones with the next mental alacrity. Not optimal, but could be done without a huge DPS drop. I don't play this spec, but I'm sure it is OK.

For TK sage, if the dot fades and if the mental alac is off, you're screwed. On many bosses, it is possible to keep it up even through switches, but it's a mess and I'm not sure it would be always worth, as it would cost 1 CDG downtime on the target that maters. I'm sure some players already manage things like this, even without using the trick, tho...

Anyhow, on bosses, this trick is to be used by high-skilled players only.

I've done a little bit -very little- of testing of my own, and something seems to be off (possibly my understanding of how alacrity is supposed to work?).

The testing I did was using the blue polybiotic alacrity adrenal, both before and after applying the Shatter dot (Juggernaut).

If used before, the dot application interval and overall duration were both noticeably reduced as expected. However, if I applied the dot and immediately popped the adrenal, the application interval and duration were more or less the same as they are without the adrenal.

I did similar testing with a single stack of kolto probe, but using Stim Boost on top of the adrenal. The same result as above, but with a fun twist: I made it so the increased alacrity would fall off half-way through the kolto probe duration. The remaining ticks were still applied at the increased alacrity rate, and the overall duration wasn't lengthened.

I've done a little bit -very little- of testing of my own, and something seems to be off (possibly my understanding of how alacrity is supposed to work?).

 

The testing I did was using the blue polybiotic alacrity adrenal, both before and after applying the Shatter dot (Juggernaut).

 

If used before, the dot application interval and overall duration were both noticeably reduced as expected. However, if I applied the dot and immediately popped the adrenal, the application interval and duration were more or less the same as they are without the adrenal.

 

I did similar testing with a single stack of kolto probe, but using Stim Boost on top of the adrenal. The same result as above, but with a fun twist: I made it so the increased alacrity would fall off half-way through the kolto probe duration. The remaining ticks were still applied at the increased alacrity rate, and the overall duration wasn't lengthened.

 

Normal. Alacrity is applied when the effect is applied (be it CD or effect duration). Alacrity is never applied retroactively.

This thread is about something else altogether... It's about alacrity shortened effect stay shortened if they are refreshed before they fall off.. Even if the alacrity effect ended minutes ago.