Please cut the CD on saber reflect and saber ward in half for dps Juggs.

I shouldn't have to spec immortal to do Arena or survive without a pocket healer.

If I want to relax when I play I switch to my merc or sorc who do as much dps (not min/maxed) and I never die unless I position like a tool. My PT is overall way more tanky. Cant wait to get ranger set and heal 3% all day. My assassin main is also more fun because I can just cloak/heal/tactical swap.

This brings up another huge disadvantage for Juggs. No ability to tactical swap, bubble, or exit combat.

Juggs are literally the focus target of all random arenas and most WZ if the other team is smart. Have to LoS and hope a healer is smart enough to heal me. I don't understand why they designed a class called Juggernaut to play like a glass cannon.

Disclosure:

I do not have the Enraged Defense tactical yet because some genius tied it to a weekly RNG vendor AND crafting skill ***. Moreover, Enraged Defense can be played around. Don't be an idiot and hit into a Jugg when you see their HP bar going up. I do not want to give up my dps tactical to equip an item that can be played around.

If I want to relax when I play I switch to my merc or sorc who do as much dps (not min/maxed) and I never die

Lol. Merc maybe, but sorc dps? Maybe in the odd WZ when you can stand on the sidelines and get a little bit of dps in without instantly getting jumped by 3 juggs as they all know you can't really do anything to shake them off other than bubble, effectively rendering you useless for the duration, whereas a juggernaut can still dps while focused. You essentially need to play a heal specced sorc to get the survivability of a dps jugg.

And yes ED can be "worked around", but how often does it happen that a bunch of random opponents just pull off a synchronized dps stop, and how much fun is it to still have a dps jugg in your face that can't be knocked back and that will heal from your damage? At least your main defense still allows you to be an active threat, unlike sorcs.

My suggestion on this front, which I havent really given "serious" thought too, is that guardians' issues in pvp are mostly related to focus.

Our antifocus tool is supposed to be saber reflect, which is good except it only reflects direct single target force, ranged, and tech attacks. Make it work on melee (and maybe other) damage types as well, sort of like mercs without the healing factor. This gives an antifocus tool akin to something like a sentinels stealth out in the sense that it doesn't heal you, but does prevent damage.

Or you know, rescale FD again.

Seriously how many lives do you want more? 3 additional one?

Pt is way more tanky? Yeah right...

Lol. Merc maybe, but sorc dps? Maybe in the odd WZ when you can stand on the sidelines and get a little bit of dps in without instantly getting jumped by 3 juggs as they all know you can't really do anything to shake them off other than bubble, effectively rendering you useless for the duration, whereas a juggernaut can still dps while focused. You essentially need to play a heal specced sorc to get the survivability of a dps jugg.

 

And yes ED can be "worked around", but how often does it happen that a bunch of random opponents just pull off a synchronized dps stop, and how much fun is it to still have a dps jugg in your face that can't be knocked back and that will heal from your damage? At least your main defense still allows you to be an active threat, unlike sorcs.

I can tell you do not have an objective view. I don't even main Jugg, but by playing one and killing a bunch I do know that its defensive CDs are not strong enough to deal with issues I described in my OP.

You sight one instance where 37.5% of the team has to be VENGENCE JUGGS for life to be bad for Sorcs? ROFL what??? Its far more likely a team will be full of assorted ranged nuking down the 1 or 2 jugs on a team. I do it all the time on my Merc/Sorc and its sad.

You actually just need to spec for mobility and you are fine.

Seriously how many lives do you want more? 3 additional one?

 

Pt is way more tanky? Yeah right...

Worthless hyperbolic post. 3 lives huh.....

Want me to write you a guide on how to play PT or do you want to explain your position?

My suggestion on this front, which I havent really given "serious" thought too, is that guardians' issues in pvp are mostly related to focus.

 

Our antifocus tool is supposed to be saber reflect, which is good except it only reflects direct single target force, ranged, and tech attacks. Make it work on melee (and maybe other) damage types as well, sort of like mercs without the healing factor. This gives an antifocus tool akin to something like a sentinels stealth out in the sense that it doesn't heal you, but does prevent damage.

 

Or you know, rescale FD again.

This captures my sentiment.

I was thinking in terms of what would be easiest for the Dev team to do therefore a higher chance of happening. Lowering the CDs of both saber ward and saber reflect would help a lot with zero development time lol.

3 min on Saber Ward is crazy considering some of the similar CDs of other classes.

However I do like the idea of a modified saber reflect.

FD stands for what? Guardian version of Enrage Defense?

I can tell you do not have an objective view. I don't even main Jugg, but by playing one and killing a bunch I do know that its defensive CDs are not strong enough to deal with issues I described in my OP.

 

You sight one instance where 37.5% of the team has to be VENGENCE JUGGS for life to be bad for Sorcs? ROFL what??? Its far more likely a team will be full of assorted ranged nuking down the 1 or 2 jugs on a team. I do it all the time on my Merc/Sorc and its sad.

 

You actually just need to spec for mobility and you are fine.

Well, back atcha as far as objectivity goes, judging by your anecdotes you either have little experience playing a dps sorc, or you have been very lucky in the WZs you played. It's not a question of not speccing for mobility as a sorc, you pretty much need to do so or you won't stand any chance at all. But speccing for mobility just means your force speed is a little more reliable; you're still hard pressed to keep your distance from melee classes, all else being equal. Hence you can't just "nuke down a jugg at range" because you can't reliably stop them from getting to you. A sniper can, but a sorc can't. Maybe you're talking about juggs who are fighting someone else and aren't actively trying to get in your face.

As for team balance, I'm not sure what WZs you've been in, but in my experience juggs (and operatives, and assassins, and PTs, and mercs) are more common than dps sorcs, and in general the melee/10m/stealth classes tend to be more common than the 30m ones.

Does this have to turn into a who has it worse debate? Maybe sorc dps need buffs too. I cant speak for them because I don't play one.

Dps VG is still squishy, but for PvP at least their damage is also crazy high, and they got a new DCD of sorts with 6.0. Guardian dps just got screwed DCD wise by the poor scaling of FD (and yes Focused Defense is the pub name of ED).

Either way, stop the futless arguing over who has it worse. Take it from me, it helps nothing and neither of you will ever agree. I've had plenty of such arguments in the past, and they go nowhere.

To the point, yes, guardians need help with focus fire situations. My proposal is, i feel, a modest increase in survivability. FD, I might add, is not even a second life any more for dps, and surviving long enough to get a second one off, even with grit teeth, is difficult. I suggest improving reflect, because, well for one thing im pissed mercs got it, and primarily because it is supposed to function as our antifocus anyway.

Not to mention, I might add, my suggestion does not "add a third life" and can be completely mitigated by ignoring the guardian during reflect, which is what reflect is supposed to do anyway.

Alternatively, if you do desire, remove all antifocus tools from all non-stealth classes. Then maybe we can just all be squishy! (/sarcasm if it wasnt obvious)

I found the answer! Boost a Fury Mara and profit.

I play rage jugg so all my gear should transfer over nicely. Just have to buy a hilt for a few tech frags.

I found the answer! Boost a Fury Mara and profit.

 

I play rage jugg so all my gear should transfer over nicely. Just have to buy a hilt for a few tech frags.

i mean, i've been saying that to rage juggs for years... literally play identically, just fury is better at everything except self healing in combat.

i mean, i've been saying that to rage juggs for years... literally play identically, just fury is better at everything except self healing in combat.

So I've gone back to play Vengeance for the first time since I started playing again....

Paired with grit teeth Its considerably more durable than rage while having more dps.

Yes yes I know. "Go try it in ranked." BUT, I've tried to place my self in compromising situations, Attacking a node 1v3 etc, and try to see if i can last till i get my second enraged defense.

I spec warmonger to get the 20% brawn wall as often as possible. Its pretty effective. I think greatly reducing the range needed to charge would be a pretty substantial Veng buff. I also found proactively using my DCDs to bridge my Enrage Defense is most effective.

Think rage is D tier while warmonger Veng comes up a few notches to B tier. See how it goes in a few weeks. Hopefully they will throw us a DCD buff too.

(WoW players rank the classes/specs by S+, S, A, B, C, D tiers. Not sure why but its what I know. http://www.skill-capped.com/content/16186/wow-tier-list/)

Vigi is better than focus, yes. Which is also something I've been saying on these forums for literal years.

If its good enough to be "B" tier though, I doubt it. I played a vigi guardian in ranked and in regs under incredible amounts of focus because of who I am. Its a nightmare. If you live long enough to get off a second FD even with the tactical the enemy dps are bad or you're not really being focused.

Is there a reason you keep telling me you have been saying this stuff for years?

Not to be rude, but im not interested in that. Not like im going to go back and read all the jugg posts ever made lol.

Your other feedback has been good though. Thanks.

i mean, i've been saying that to rage juggs for years... literally play identically, just fury is better at everything except self healing in combat.

I think that's a little bit harsh on Rage. It has some pretty nice utility over Fury in its taunts and Intercede. And mobility certainly has gotten a lot closer over time with Rage cleansing movement impairing effect with Intercede and getting Enrage every 18 or so seconds (with that super useful utility that cleanses movement impairing effects and gives you a nice 50% speed boost). It's not quite as good as Fury with its CC immunity, but it's totally viable for regs.

In regs do whatever, I still say if you really want burst go concentration. Better immunity, better toolkit particularly antifocus abilities, everything else minus taunt, offguard, and self heal (poorly scaled it may be) goes to concentration. And if you want to use the utilities vigi has a slightly better defense to pull it off than focus.

Focus is where it has been for a long time - a lesser concentration, with class abilities that can be better used by vigi (and even better used by a tank). If you want to use it in regs, whatever, but you could be fulfilling the same role, but better with concentration. And I say this as someone who does in fact play all 3 guardian specs in pvp. Group ranked im not even going to try to talk to.

I spec warmonger to get the 20% brawn wall as often as possible. Its pretty effective.

Pretty sure it is still bugged and doesn't actually reduce it's cooldown properly?

Pretty sure it is still bugged and doesn't actually reduce it's cooldown properly?

Yes, this is true