Anastasie! Haha love this guide! Thank you for taking the time to write it down. Didn't know you had it in you )

forum addict

<3

First off, thanks for the large contribution, Ramalina! I added links to it directly in the table of contents so your posts don't fade into nothingness. I'd change the title to be a sort of compendium from GSF veterans but I don't think I'm able. Here's a few comments/corrections:

 

 

I adhere to this belief as well.

 

 

I'm nearly certain Rapid Reload does not change bomber mine cooldowns. Use two together on a minelayer (with Rapid Reload) and watch the cooldowns synchronize perfectly. One should be off by over a second if Rapid Reload made a difference.

 

 

 

Missiles, torpedoes and rockets.

 

 

This is 13%, correct?

 

 

Haha, truth. I'm not touching that stuff with a ten foot pole.

 

 

I could test this extensively at some point (maybe tomorrow) with someone, though I can't promise I would Fraps it or anything. I'll see what I can set up.

 

I wish all these abilities had some real range to them, like 10k or so.

Thanks for the catches. Indeed 13%, 15% is a typo. I'll go ahead and change the mine entry for rapid reload, with the hangar stats and the tooltip disagreeing I wasn't sure which it was. It would only change from 20 sec to 18.4 sec, so not super easy to detect by pure feel, but comparing against the systems slot mines is a nice way to compare.

I consider a proton torpedo to be a kind of missile, but I'll throw that in so it doesn't confuse people who might not.

As far as testing wingman/running interference goes, here's how I'd run it .

Have the attacker be equipped with stock heavy laser cannons, and no accuracy buffs of any sort.

Park 3120 m from the target, possibly a type two gunship built to have 0 evasion without cooldowns.

Line up guns perfectly.

Have the target hit the Running interference cooldown, and open fire for 2 seconds, or as close to exactly 4 shots as you can manage.

If it's a flat buff at least one shot should miss in about half of the trials. If it's something that builds over time a .75% per second or something close to that, then all 4 shots should hit in about 9 out of 10 trials.

I'm basing the above on the chance that 4 out of 4 shots hit, and comparing a 98% probability of hit vs. an 85% probability of hit.

A bunch of trials would be good. 4-5 maybe as a minimum, and I'd be very happy with 10. I think the difference is big enough so assuming there's no pilot error confounding things it's still pretty solid even with small sample sizes.

I was thinking something along the lines of spending a match testing with this:

Scout 1:

Rapid-fire Laser Cannons (75% accuracy @ 4000m + 6% from offensive crew member = 81% @ 4000m)

Frequency Capacitor (more shots = less ambiguity?)

fires on this stationary target...

Scout 2:

Scout Passive (10% evasion)

Lightweight Armor (9% evasion)

Distortion Field (9% passive + 35% active for 9 seconds)

Defensive Copilot (5% evasion)

Running Interference (15% evasion popped right before the first shot)

Which totals to 83% evasion with cooldowns active. If Running Interference is a flat 15% the first scout will not land a single shot for 9 seconds straight (in any number of trials) because 81% accuracy < 83% evasion. Right?

If getting a consistent number of shots with heavy lasers is tricky, you might try stock BLC's for 3 shots, the numbers change a bit, you'd want 1750 range, and the respective chances of one or more shots missing would be

about 40% chance if a flat buff

about 10% chance if buff over time.

Assuming the target survives the third shot that is. Actually with a type 2 GS and Fortress shield that might work nicely.

My general though is that you want a rate of fire slow enough that you can get the number of shots fired very consistent, but you also want to get them all off before a buff over time scenario builds to the point where it would make analysis resemble actual work.

It's hard to tell since the regen lock has the same length than the default time it takes for shields to restart

 

Unless the target uses for sure Turbo Reactor or Directional Shields or Quick-charge with specific upgrades, that's impossible to tell, and so I don't recommend using it for that purpose.

Yeah... again, I only found it useful on new alts with no other choice (by which I mean, I kept forgetting to change my copilot).

I was thinking something along the lines of spending a match testing with this:

 

Scout 1:

Rapid-fire Laser Cannons (75% accuracy @ 4000m + 6% from offensive crew member = 81% @ 4000m)

Frequency Capacitor (more shots = less ambiguity?)

 

fires on this stationary target...

 

Scout 2:

Scout Passive (10% evasion)

Lightweight Armor (9% evasion)

Distortion Field (9% passive + 35% active for 9 seconds)

Defensive Copilot (5% evasion)

Running Interference (15% evasion popped right before the first shot)

 

Which totals to 83% evasion with cooldowns active. If Running Interference is a flat 15% the first scout will not land a single shot for 9 seconds straight (in any number of trials) because 81% accuracy < 83% evasion. Right?

Yeah, that'd probably work. You get some possibility of still having straight misses without the 15% RI buff, but if I'm doing the math right it's in the ballpark of 10-15% chance per trial of having all misses without the 15% evasion.

So with 5 - 10 trials you'd probably still have a pretty reliable idea of how it worked, and it has the benefit of working with fighters that are mastered, since we can't un-equip component the way we can gear in the ground game.

So I tested this with Drakolich in a Domination match very far away from enemies/allies. Somewhere around 7 trials. I could not hit him a single time using the outline I laid above. This leads me to believe (as had I originally thought) that Running Interference really is just "15% evasion for 20 seconds." I fraps'd some of the trials, I may upload it but I haven't done any sort of even basic editing/compression in quite a while.

Edit: Another thing to note: The buffs stack when two different people use them next to each other. I'll see if I can arrange a session to test whether or not it actually does anything.

Tune's (Aquilon's) alternate (excentric) Pike build:

Primary Weapon: Heavy Lasers (ignore armor, Shield peirce)

Its quite obvious as has been stated having armor pen is really good. If some one is running with an armor stacking build they can cripple you if you dont have armor pen. While many dont you will be glad you have it for those that do. Not to mention Range or turrets having armor.

Secondary Weapon: Proton Torp (increased speed, Increased Range)

again fairly obvious and standard for a Pike build, bread and butter so to speak.

Secondary weapon: Concussive Missiles (Increase range, Target engines.)

You already have armor pen in the lasers, its not needed hear having target engines means its easier to chase down targets who dont dodge this missile making the Proton easier. This build is not for Dog fighting. You are a long range missile boat for peeling enemies, allow allies to peel them from you while you peel from them.

Shields: Charged Plating. (Engine power shunt)

With the new ships none have armor peircing options. Further more many choose not to take armor peircing in their weapons. Those that do can kill this shield slightly faster, but not as fast as one may think with the change to only allow 20% through. They now need to take down your shields to bring you from full to dead, and with shields that are the same strength all round as Directionals are in one front when they are set to double front or back this build can be quite hardy, especially for those that dont have great situational awareness, a gunship will always take at least 2 shots to kill you while if you have your directional facing the wrong way they will only need 1. Obviously engines are much better then weapons for energy regen. Also with the more healing ships coming in, it will be much easier to heal the bleed through with allies. With this be warry of targets you try to head to head, try to recongize armor peircing weapons (slug gun, Burst lasers, Heavy lasers, rocket pods, others dont commonly use)

Alternate shield: Directional (reduced regen delay)

Obvious alternative. This is for those with better situational awareness. Those that can manage their abilities well and keep the shield always facing where it needs to be. The back when no one is in front of you and the front when some one is in front of you.

Engines: With the changes its an either or. Either Barrel Roll or Koigran turn with both take Speed bonus. The speed bonus allows you to take advantage of your range by chasing down enemies or getting distance on them. The changes barrel roll will be much more difficult to reliably use, but still has its benefits. Same with Koigran. Take the one you are most comfortable with.

Armor: Deflection armor

Obvious fitting with the theme of Charge plating. While again can be bypassed by Armor peircing this armor isnt for countering those people. Armor is much better for dealing with mines and missile lock-ons like the ever favorite cluster missiles as evasion does not effect them. While also stacking supremely well with charge plating. Also many people will run lasers that dont armor peirce and that will become even more prevalent with the patch as more ships are incapable of grabbing and armor piercing weapon.

Capacitor: Damage Capacitor.

Another obvious one, while Frequency garners more DPS this is better for short bursts times when you know you are unlikely to get more then a few shots off. I find myself in those situations a lot thus prefer these to frequency.

Magazine: Munitions capacitor extender

Again obvious choice for the missile boat. While its rare to run out of missiles, it sucks when you do and you are running a pike.

Thrusters: Regeneration thrusters.

Fitting with the idea of speed over Maneuverability in this build as you wish to engage long range targets and run from those that wish to get in a turning fight with you want thrusters that can be used often. You will constantly be chasing some one down or short boosting into LoS and then boosting out of it. You want thrusters that compliment this.

Crew:

Offensive: Improved accuracy and kill zone

This makes getting these longer range missiles off a little easier by improving their kill zone and the extra accuracy is a must

Defensive: +10% shields and +9% damage reduction

Again this is an armor build, as such playing to its strengths is the goal 5% evasion and 9% DR is also viable

Tactical: your prefrence wont change much but I prefer Depth of field and periphrial vision. Longer range senors are a good gaurd against gunships. Allowing you to see them coming before they are in range of you.

Engineering: Power to engines, and efficient maneuvers.

This should be obvious again, we are going for speed and long range here. Your lasers dont cost much, but you will likely be trying to either get in range or running away a lot. The easier you can make it the better off you will be. Obviously you could go Quick charge shields for more engine efficiency, but at that point its just getting to levels of rediculous engine energy that its unneccisary to have it here. This in combination with Charged plating normally keeps engines at a very healthy level.

Co-pilot ability: Lock down

This is one most think of as just offensive, but its much more then that. While it can be used offensively to disable engines right before sending a missile up some ones tail pipe. It also works as a great defense. With all the engine efficiency taken using lock down as you run away from a persueing target usually allows you to get away pretty easily. If you are running koigran turn and use this ability as lock down as you run away then use Koigran to turn around and dodge a missile you will often find the person in perfect range of your lasers and concussive missiles with no energy to dodge with allowing you to take them down.

The build is a bit ecentric. If your server is littered with people using armor peircing weapons and not using many bombers or all of the scouts are using burst lasers and/or rocket pods. This will likely not be ideal. But those that have a balance of aces using armor peircing and none armor peircing weapons this is a very good build.

For those that think its no good I used it and got 18 kills with 1 death in a TDM and then immediately after wards 13 kills with 4 deaths in another against 4 pilots that are considered republic aces on the opposing team. I did have back up from another ace gunship pilot, but so did they. We also ironically did NOT have any one running repair drones so any damage I took was permanent if there was one it would have been far more efficienct and deadly build.

So I tested this with Drakolich in a Domination match very far away from enemies/allies. Somewhere around 7 trials. I could not hit him a single time using the outline I laid above. This leads me to believe (as had I originally thought) that Running Interference really is just "15% evasion for 20 seconds." I fraps'd some of the trials, I may upload it but I haven't done any sort of even basic editing/compression in quite a while.

 

Edit: Another thing to note: The buffs stack when two different people use them next to each other. I'll see if I can arrange a session to test whether or not it actually does anything.

If it stacks you should be seeing 3 or more RI icons. It'll give you two even if you're alone. One is the guaranteed buff on your ship, the second indicates that the AOE portion is active. I haven't tested stacking, yet, but it would be good to know.

It already approaches, "what were they smoking when they designed this," good as a flat buff, if it also stacks it would be the most brokenly imbalanced defensive cooldown in the game.

I'm not absolutely convinced, because it's so much more powerful than the other defensive crew abilities if it's a flat buff, but I'll go back and and edit the balance of evidence bit in the RI entry.

Also edited Suppression's entry, as if RI is a flat buff in most cases it'll be quite a bit better than suppression. Acutally it'll be better than just about every non-missile break defensive CD.

If it stacks you should be seeing 3 or more RI icons.

You definitely see multiple icons, the question is, do they actually add up or not? And to that I don't know the definitive answer.

It already approaches, "what were they smoking when they designed this," good as a flat buff, if it also stacks it would be the most brokenly imbalanced defensive cooldown in the game.

Why do you feel this at all?

You can nail a 25% accuracy debuff on a single target. That is very significant, and much larger than the 15% dodge- albeit just for a single target. Meanwhile, you can put a 20% evasion debuff on a single enemy, and you can buff everyone's accuracy in a group by 20%.

So we have:

Self + Friendly buff evasion 15%

Target debuff accuracy by 25%

Self + Friendly buff accuracy 20%

Target debuff evasion by 20%

These all look VERY similar in total budget. You are correct that running interference is generally the best, of course, but it is more than countered by other copilot abilities.

I'm not absolutely convinced, because it's so much more powerful than the other defensive crew abilities if it's a flat buff, but I'll go back and and edit the balance of evidence bit in the RI entry.

RI is recommended in this very guide, because it is good and works. This doesn't make it some ludicrous thing, or out of line with other copilot abilities.

The weakest copilot ability is Lingering Effect, with Hydro Spanner right behind. Once you get out of that land, everything has SOME role, though several are weaker than ideal.

The single target abilities are, well, single target, and in most cases if the pilot gets good use out of it, the engagement will end well before the buff does.

Evasion works against every opponent shooting at you, or you're flying in a group of above average pilots it works against everyone shooting at all three of you. Not to mention the nature of the mechanic protects you against heavy lasers and railguns. It seems to me to have a better chance of being in effect for the entire duration, though that's most pronounced in ships with high evasion.

It's not that it can't be countered, it's just that the payoff is extremely high. I don't know that crew abilities need to be an area for balancing, because the general population certainly doesn't seem fully utilize them and the cooldowns are very long, but the spread in terms of power seems pretty wide to me.

One other thing I should mention Verain. I AM being really bloody stubborn about this, but I really like the peer review that the discussion is producing, including the actual testing that folks are helping out with. You'll probably wind up reasonably happy with the final state of the crew abilities guide, but there's a little more experimentation/confirmation left to do before it's there.

Another reason for all of this lobbying the devs for perfect tooltip clarity, is that the vast majority of GSF players probably never visit the forums, and who knows how many of the forum visitors read this thread. Their primary reference for GSF is the tooltips in the hangar, so it's partly that I think that being a minor nuisance about tooltips is potentially of some service to them. Of course they probably also mostly just glance at the tooltips and don't think about the implications, so maybe it's a futile effort on my part.

The single target abilities are, well, single target, and in most cases if the pilot gets good use out of it, the engagement will end well before the buff does.

The "reduce accuracy by 25%" is the largest magnitude because it makes the least difference- because it only effects one guy. That could be important, but yes, the buffs are more powerful. They aren't limited by range, they can even effect allies etc.

Evasion works against every opponent shooting at you,

Alternatively, they can change targets and not face increased accuracy, etc.

or you're flying in a group of above average pilots it works against everyone shooting at all three of you. Not to mention the nature of the mechanic protects you against heavy lasers and railguns.

Of course. You'll hear no arguments from me that RI is great. The issue is that it's not like it's out of the blue. They clearly have a stat budget for evasion, miss chance, accuracy, and minus evasion, as demonstrated by those four. They even understand that RI is the best in that- it's only 15%, the others are 20 or 25.

Your initial confusion was "over". Ex: 15% over X seconds. If I have a hot that heals 1000 damage over 10 seconds, you don't know whether that's 100 damage each second, 200 damage every two seconds, or 10 damage every tenth of a second. You don't really care either- the damage is healing at a pretty good rate, that's all that matters.

Percents do not, and can not work like this. The very few effects that grant a stacking buff are worded just for this.

They don't work like this because it doesn't make sense. They can't work like this because it doesn't make much sense to get "1% evasion a second" or anything. Does it stack? Do you have 2% after 2 seconds, or did you just have the evasion at those intervals? It's comparing two unlike things.

Shields: Charged Plating. (Engine power shunt)

With the new ships none have armor peircing options. Further more many choose not to take armor peircing in their weapons. Those that do can kill this shield slightly faster, but not as fast as one may think with the change to only allow 20% through. They now need to take down your shields to bring you from full to dead, and with shields that are the same strength all round as Directionals are in one front when they are set to double front or back this build can be quite hardy, especially for those that dont have great situational awareness, a gunship will always take at least 2 shots to kill you while if you have your directional facing the wrong way they will only need 1. Obviously engines are much better then weapons for energy regen. Also with the more healing ships coming in, it will be much easier to heal the bleed through with allies. With this be warry of targets you try to head to head, try to recongize armor peircing weapons (slug gun, Burst lasers, Heavy lasers, rocket pods, others dont commonly use)

Just an observation but if Dulfy is right both Type 3s only hull damaging missile options have 100% armor penetration standard (protons and thermites). So while they might not have blasters that pierce armor they still have armor piercing weapons.

Just an observation but if Dulfy is right both Type 3s only hull damaging missile options have 100% armor penetration standard (protons and thermites). So while they might not have blasters that pierce armor they still have armor piercing weapons.

yes this is true, but I never count protons as they ahve 100% shield peircing as well so it doesnt matter what type of shield you get. Missiles are easier to dodge. When i said that I meant spammable armor pen

Ok stasie posted my eccentric Pike build for you .

Thanks Tune! I updated the Strike Fighter section with your build. I also reworked a bit of the General Information section to give people an idea of how I see/rationalize the upgrade process. Hopefully this helps answer questions like "what should I buy with my requisition?" I could have gone into more detail but I feel it's very subjective and most selections could be defended.

I can build on this guide even further if I get specific requests. The goal here is to make it easy for players to stop in and get information they need without having to search deep into the forums or ask fifteen or more people.

So we have:

Self + Friendly buff evasion 15%

Target debuff accuracy by 25%

Self + Friendly buff accuracy 20%

Target debuff evasion by 20%

 

These all look VERY similar in total budget. You are correct that running interference is generally the best, of course, but it is more than countered by other copilot abilities.

Running Interference is only the "best" in the current, imperfect meta. It is only weakly recommended in the Nash because if you take it with 100% then the enemy can get a permanent advantage over you by taking the accuracy buff instead. It's only useful because 1) there are a lot of non-rational players right now and 2) there are offensive buffs that are competitive in value with the accuracy buff.

The weakest copilot ability is Lingering Effect, with Hydro Spanner right behind. Once you get out of that land, everything has SOME role, though several are weaker than ideal.

Disagree re: hydrospanner. A low-end estimate for the value of hydrospanner is +260 base HP, which is pretty significant.

Thanks Tune! I updated the Strike Fighter section with your build. I also reworked a bit of the General Information section to give people an idea of how I see/rationalize the upgrade process. Hopefully this helps answer questions like "what should I buy with my requisition?" I could have gone into more detail but I feel it's very subjective and most selections could be defended.

 

I can build on this guide even further if I get specific requests. The goal here is to make it easy for players to stop in and get information they need without having to search deep into the forums or ask fifteen or more people.

Speaking of some of some of this. Was reading through some of your other builds. And I wanted to say the rampart build might be better with the Wingman co-pilot ability rather then RI for a couple reasons.

1. You are stacking so much DR that evasion isnt going to make that much of a difference at low levels.

2. there are a lot of people using RI this is a counter for it when you are using the Ramparts lasers.

3. Its still an area buff and as again stated the number of people using RI is kind of high I think doing this to help the team counter RI would be better for it then RI as again the evasion on the bomber is so low the extra buff wont do as much for it.

(Also I think Nulify needs to be buffed to lasting as long as RI then it would be good for builds like the Rampart or the Pike build I listed, but in its current state I think no one will use it.)

yes this is true, but I never count protons as they ahve 100% shield peircing as well so it doesnt matter what type of shield you get. Missiles are easier to dodge. When i said that I meant spammable armor pen

fair enough. It just seemed worth mentioning considering that missile evasion abilities are going to get a nerf in 2.7 (I think) so having to tank missile shots might become a more regular occurrence. (Which to be fair charged plating will be good at so long as the missile doesn't have armor penetration).

fair enough. It just seemed worth mentioning considering that missile evasion abilities are going to get a nerf in 2.7 (I think) so having to tank missile shots might become a more regular occurrence. (Which to be fair charged plating will be good at so long as the missile doesn't have armor penetration).

Ya i understand that, it just for the sake of arguement on other shields and armor, Evasion isnt going to help out with that and most other shields dont mitigate it any better then charge plating.

The point was a "by comparison" thing, but yes those other ships can still bring you down. You are by no means invulnerable to other pilots it just makes it rougher for them in most cases.

I don't see Verain or Stasie, or anyone else really, advocating the use of the EM Pulse system or the EMP missle in any of the builds, yet it seems like they ought to be useful given the current meta game. The EMP system on a novadive or blackbolt I think ends up being not very useful, since you have to get in close to a bomber that has already dropped mines to be maximally effective, and the type 1 scout is not built to tank a lot of that damage. I used to think it helped with debuffing my opponents during dogfighting, but I like using TT a little better and mine isn't even upgraded yet. The only time it seems to be useful is when I'm already guarding a node and a bomber comes in solo to take the node from me. Even still, the pulse radius seems too short and if the bomber hasn't been too stupid they'll have mines ready to go after I blow my EMP.

The missile on the other hand, is a little more useful but does such little damage that i think I'll still switch to clusters when I get them upgraded for a bit.

What are your thoughts on using EMP-related stuff on your builds?

I don't see Verain or Stasie, or anyone else really, advocating the use of the EM Pulse system or the EMP missle in any of the builds, yet it seems like they ought to be useful given the current meta game. The EMP system on a novadive or blackbolt I think ends up being not very useful, since you have to get in close to a bomber that has already dropped mines to be maximally effective, and the type 1 scout is not built to tank a lot of that damage. I used to think it helped with debuffing my opponents during dogfighting, but I like using TT a little better and mine isn't even upgraded yet. The only time it seems to be useful is when I'm already guarding a node and a bomber comes in solo to take the node from me. Even still, the pulse radius seems too short and if the bomber hasn't been too stupid they'll have mines ready to go after I blow my EMP.

The missile on the other hand, is a little more useful but does such little damage that i think I'll still switch to clusters when I get them upgraded for a bit.

 

What are your thoughts on using EMP-related stuff on your builds?

I think most dont use them because of much of the reasons you have listed. Emp pulse needs to get to close to be effective by the time their often times dead and its really only there to counter 1 build. Somethign I dont think any of us really want to do. We want to counter multiple builds.

The emp missile does to little damage and neither EMP missiles or pulse lock out enough things to truly be useful.

There was a thought presented among the Bastion that we feel would make EMP actually useful but we need to post that here stil. Will probably do so later.

Disagree re: hydrospanner. A low-end estimate for the value of hydrospanner is +260 base HP, which is pretty significant.

It's less than a single laser shot or even half of a Cluster Missile double volley and it takes time to receive the heal, which is a problem when you consider the power of burst damage. I'd argue that doesn't feel significant at all and outside of TDM I don't even consider using it. That said, I'm sure there's uses for it and that some people prefer the minimal heal that it provides. I used it to help get more repair MVPs for Grease Monkey-Lizard, but haven't found it practical enough to use over the alternatives available.

My complaint about the balance of the accuracy/evasion abilities is that the single-target ones are range 5000m, which seriously devalues them. The best use of these abilities is against gunships, and they are most needed when you are at the 10-15km range. Once you've closed to within 5000m it's much easier to dodge the railgun.

I'd agree with the single-target accuracy debuff statement, though it would still affect a gunship's Burst Laser Cannons, which are a real threat at closer range. Copilot debuffs (like the aforementioned, among others) should be applicable beyond 5000m, they are fairly undesireable as-is.

Speaking of some of some of this. Was reading through some of your other builds. And I wanted to say the rampart build might be better with the Wingman co-pilot ability rather then RI for a couple reasons.

You actually bring up a good point, the evasion doesn't have much synergy when you're opting out of the defensive crew member and the armor component. I may update the build, though I think Nullify may be a better ability since we're aiming for nearly 100% DR against enemy mines and other attacks. Nullify would allow you to retain a high DR when Charged Plating is down. RI is still flat-out better, though.

I don't see Verain or Stasie, or anyone else really, advocating the use of the EM Pulse system or the EMP missle in any of the builds, yet it seems like they ought to be useful given the current meta game.

That's mostly because they feel horrifically underpowered for what (I think) they're supposed to do: counter bombers. When I get hit by an EMP on my bomber I tend to just shrug and keep playing as if nothing had happened. As a bomber, I can drop a new mine/drone to counteract a good deal of the effect or just stall for time by LOSing on the satellite/an asteroid.

The EMP system on a novadive or blackbolt I think ends up being not very useful, since you have to get in close to a bomber that has already dropped mines to be maximally effective, and the type 1 scout is not built to tank a lot of that damage.

I feel like they'd be more effective using Verain's two-tone EMP pulse suggestion (which would disable mines and drones at a much larger range) or if they simply made EMP abilities disable the enemy's ability to use secondary weapons. EMP would be great at limiting your opponent's options and I'd actually consider testing it out (though I wish they allowed multiple loadouts for the Quell/Pike and Blackbolt/NovaDive).

I used to think it helped with debuffing my opponents during dogfighting, but I like using TT a little better and mine isn't even upgraded yet.

Agreed. Armonddd mentioned in another thread that EMP is useful for following up with a Sabotage Probe. It'll net you a kill, but as he said, I also find it's less effective than simply loading on more burst damage capability. I tried running with EMP and Sabotage Probe back when EMP was first introduced and found it wasn't all that fun to play and didn't feel very rewarding. That might change if you wanted to be a debuffer for a friendly Pike/Quell, but I think I'll wait and see how the engine changes feel before commenting further there.

The missile on the other hand, is a little more useful but does such little damage that i think I'll still switch to clusters when I get them upgraded for a bit.

I don't think EMP (in either of its forms) needs more damage tacked on - it needs to have more utility, that's why you're taking it to begin with. We have enough damage options for both Systems and Secondary Weapons. It won't feel all that distinct if you just make it another missile that deals significant damage.

What are your thoughts on using EMP-related stuff on your builds?

Though I have rolled with EMP in both the system and missile format, I opt-out of it in all my builds. I really think it needs some kind of buff (other than damage) to make it a unique and competitive choice. The change doesn't even have to be similar between the two types of EMP.