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Light sided Sith


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lol have you even read the series? I'm about to reread the series for the fourth time, and I can tell you that bane's interpretation of power and the darkside IS THE ESTABLISHED AUTHORITY ON THIS SUBJECT. again, he does not merely rant about meaningless subjects, BUT HE ESTABLISHES THE RULE OF TWO AND A PRECEDENT FOR ALL FUTURE SITH. there is no other way to interpret the darkside, and light sith fundamentally do not have access to the greater powers of pure darkside adherents. Again, read the example i provided and actually read the books.

 

Most people seem to misinterpret dark siders as being raving 5 year olds killing things willy nilly. Yes, i would expect someone who hasn't actually read any of the eu to believe this interpretation. But no, the dark side is not that simple. True darksiders completely unleash themselves to their emotions, the most powerful emotions being hate and vengeance (though love and other passions play their role in the order too).

 

are you saying because darth bane said something that makes it fact? that seems kinda silly. also, the power levels of force users is so inconsistant that arguing that a "lightside sith" would be weaker is pretty much pointless. oh ok, so he doesnt reach arbitrary force level 5 of darkside powers, but that doesnt do anything in the stories or anything else. it just seems arbitrary and pointless.

 

i mean a pretty easy example is that obi-wan is regarded as a talented, but still fairly average powerwise jedi. while anakin is said to be one of the most powerful force users to have ever existed. obi-wan beat him. alot of good that massive force-power did him huh?

 

so being 100% most effective with the force isn't really a big deal. especially when you come off as a violent sociopath with no real depth to your character. darkside sith are just BORING. how anyone finds them interesting is beyond me. its insanely boring actually. lightside sith are actually interesting, as they discuss philosophy with their differences between normal sith. they strive for enlightenment in unique ways. it just works way better on every level.

 

lightside sith are either anti-heroes or very sympathetic villains. that is FAR more interesting than one dimensional super evil violent sociopaths that kill everything willy nilly. its just BAD WRITING when the "emotionless" jedi are more relate-able than the "emotion driven" sith. thats crazy cus humans are emotional animals, so it'd make sense for people to relate easier to the emotional side of force users, but the way sith come off as super over the top irredeemable villains kinda ruins that.

 

lightside sith are just far more interesting. sure if you wanna get nitpicky about the lore then yea, they might be less powerful. but this isn't dragonball Z. no one cares about arbitrary powerlevels.

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lol have you even read the series? I'm about to reread the series for the fourth time, and I can tell you that bane's interpretation of power and the darkside IS THE ESTABLISHED AUTHORITY ON THIS SUBJECT. again, he does not merely rant about meaningless subjects, BUT HE ESTABLISHES THE RULE OF TWO AND A PRECEDENT FOR ALL FUTURE SITH. there is no other way to interpret the darkside, and light sith fundamentally do not have access to the greater powers of pure darkside adherents. Again, read the example i provided and actually read the books.

 

Most people seem to misinterpret dark siders as being raving 5 year olds killing things willy nilly. Yes, i would expect someone who hasn't actually read any of the eu to believe this interpretation. But no, the dark side is not that simple. True darksiders completely unleash themselves to their emotions, the most powerful emotions being hate and vengeance (though love and other passions play their role in the order too).

 

You do realize that Darth Bane CANONICLY Made mistakes in his interpretations? In particular, he thought Revan's holocron was reaching toward the rule of two, but that had nothing at all to do with what Revan actually meant.

 

As a general rule, EVERYTHING a character says can be taken as subjective to some degree.

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Rather new here and trying to read up on lore mostly so I can get character motivations straight in my head. Here is where I think some of this issue is confusing. Sith is both a race and an organization. There should be no assumption that sith (race) are automatically evil.

 

Kira is annoying and headstrong and impulsive. And maybe a bit vindictive, but not evil

 

Sith the organization because of their focus on the dark side would be considered evil. As for strength wouldn't that depend more on force sensitivity than DS/LS after all Anikan was both a powerful Jedi and a Powerful Sith.

 

As an aside it would be cool if a traditionally DS class gained and lost access to abilities as their alignment shifted. Or even if they had to go out of their way to find a trainer for their new abilities. It would also be cool if they could give in to their original side and use an ability they normally could not, though it would have a long cd to make it a seldom used ability. And vice versa if you played a traditionally LS class DS.

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this game does an amazing job of subtly depicting the down fall of the empire. there is a reason that the empire does not last. and that reason is all the back stabbing, wasted assets, elitist mentality and infighting.

 

the empire will fall, and itll be because the wrong people are in charge (the sith)

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i mean a pretty easy example is that obi-wan is regarded as a talented, but still fairly average powerwise jedi.

 

false.

 

obi wan was on the jedi council - you dont get on there just because of seniority. also George Lucas describes Obi Wan as the "consummate Jedi" and a MASTER of soresu, just like dooku was master of makashi and windu was master of vaapad.

 

basically what im trying to say, and a lot of star wars fans dont get this, is that obi wan is and always was a big deal. he is so far from average jedi its not even funny.

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false.

 

obi wan was on the jedi council - you dont get on there just because of seniority. also George Lucas describes Obi Wan as the "consummate Jedi" and a MASTER of soresu, just like dooku was master of makashi and windu was master of vaapad.

 

basically what im trying to say, and a lot of star wars fans dont get this, is that obi wan is and always was a big deal. he is so far from average jedi its not even funny.

 

yup, they mary sued him for fan service. doesn't change the fact that anakin was twice as "powerful" as him and still lost.

 

that dooku was less powerful than both of them and still beat them both at the same time.

 

my point is, arbitrary power levels are silly, pointless and don't mean a thing. not to mention grossly inconsistent from one place to another.

 

obi-wan was a master of soresu, a very powerful jedi, earned a place on the council, and got his butt kicked by a bounty hunter and his gadgets. the point is that the force isn't the end all be all. the power levels aren't very important. obi-wan being "super powerful" or "average in power" it changes NOTHING.

 

so a sith being alittle less poweful in the force cus he's not fully embracing the darkside isn't a big deal and wouldn't be a significant factor in any fights. it just bugs me when people rant about force power and all that jazz as if it was dragonball z.

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are you saying because darth bane said something that makes it fact? that seems kinda silly. also, the power levels of force users is so inconsistant that arguing that a "lightside sith" would be weaker is pretty much pointless. oh ok, so he doesnt reach arbitrary force level 5 of darkside powers, but that doesnt do anything in the stories or anything else. it just seems arbitrary and pointless.

 

i mean a pretty easy example is that obi-wan is regarded as a talented, but still fairly average powerwise jedi. while anakin is said to be one of the most powerful force users to have ever existed. obi-wan beat him. alot of good that massive force-power did him huh?

 

so being 100% most effective with the force isn't really a big deal. especially when you come off as a violent sociopath with no real depth to your character. darkside sith are just BORING. how anyone finds them interesting is beyond me. its insanely boring actually. lightside sith are actually interesting, as they discuss philosophy with their differences between normal sith. they strive for enlightenment in unique ways. it just works way better on every level.

 

lightside sith are either anti-heroes or very sympathetic villains. that is FAR more interesting than one dimensional super evil violent sociopaths that kill everything willy nilly. its just BAD WRITING when the "emotionless" jedi are more relate-able than the "emotion driven" sith. thats crazy cus humans are emotional animals, so it'd make sense for people to relate easier to the emotional side of force users, but the way sith come off as super over the top irredeemable villains kinda ruins that.

 

lightside sith are just far more interesting. sure if you wanna get nitpicky about the lore then yea, they might be less powerful. but this isn't dragonball Z. no one cares about arbitrary powerlevels.

 

Arbitrary and pointless? You might as well say the entire lore forums are arbitrary and pointless since star wars doesn't really exist.

 

If youre saying that light side sith are still strong, then I would say it is relative. Are they stronger than the average smuggler? Sure. (Though i also believe smugglers/mercs/troopers can compensate for their lack of force abilities).

 

Im not going to get into the whole anakin-obi wan debate because it distracts from the real debate. But just out of curiousity, how long had anakin been a jedi knight? 3 years? and how long had obi wan been a master? I personally feel that obi wan only won because, as he said, he had the higher ground.

 

Matter of opinion but there is nothing boring about dark side sith. If that was the case then the darth bane series would not be nearly as popular as it is. Youre interpreting the dark side in the same way a fiver year old would. Even so, something this subjective is completely irrelevant to the discussion, as equally irrelevant as your comparison to dragon ball z.

 

Also, some appear to be trying to discredit Darth Bane. I will take his authority in the EU over any of yours any day.

 

Again, light sith are no where near as powerful as dark sith. No one has yet to provide a reasonable counter argument to my points/examples. Light Sith have their uses, to be the sacrifices of the more powerful.

Edited by DarthPunitor
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Arbitrary and pointless? You might as well say the entire lore forums are arbitrary and pointless since star wars doesn't really exist.

 

If youre saying that light side sith are still strong, then I would say it is relative. Are they stronger than the average smuggler? Sure. (Though i also believe smugglers/mercs/troopers can compensate for their lack of force abilities).

 

Im not going to get into the whole anakin-obi wan debate because it distracts from the real debate. But just out of curiousity, how long had anakin been a jedi knight? 3 years? and how long had obi wan been a master? I personally feel that obi wan only won because, as he said, he had the higher ground.

 

Matter of opinion but there is nothing boring about dark side sith. If that was the case then the darth bane series would not be nearly as popular as it is. Youre interpreting the dark side in the same way a fiver year old would. Even so, something this subjective is completely irrelevant to the discussion, as equally irrelevant as your comparison to dragon ball z.

 

Also, some appear to be trying to discredit Darth Bane. I will take his authority in the EU over any of yours any day.

 

Again, light sith are no where near as powerful as dark sith. No one has yet to provide a reasonable counter argument to my points/examples. Light Sith have their uses, to be the sacrifices of the more powerful.

 

1. Technically, yes this is pointless, because clearly nobody is going to change your viewpoint.

 

2. Yeah... No. They're still very strong. A LS Warrior or LS Inquisitor can kill their..... You know who's just a well (maybe better) then their DS counterparts.

 

3. Yes. Yes they are. The only really interesting DS options in the game are the turning of Jaesa, and the attempted turning of Ashara. Almost every single other choice is just plain stupid evil, and so obvious as to take all excitment from the game.

 

What's a "fiver year old"?

 

4. You know, by his own rules, Bane is the weakest and least knowledgeable of the Sith Lords, right?

 

5. I vehemently disagree, and have noted that your examples have not included any weak LS Sith.

 

That's because they haven't existed yet. Because the canon for their existance is being made in this game now.

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Arbitrary and pointless? You might as well say the entire lore forums are arbitrary and pointless since star wars doesn't really exist.

 

If youre saying that light side sith are still strong, then I would say it is relative. Are they stronger than the average smuggler? Sure. (Though i also believe smugglers/mercs/troopers can compensate for their lack of force abilities).

 

Im not going to get into the whole anakin-obi wan debate because it distracts from the real debate. But just out of curiousity, how long had anakin been a jedi knight? 3 years? and how long had obi wan been a master? I personally feel that obi wan only won because, as he said, he had the higher ground.

 

Matter of opinion but there is nothing boring about dark side sith. If that was the case then the darth bane series would not be nearly as popular as it is. Youre interpreting the dark side in the same way a fiver year old would. Even so, something this subjective is completely irrelevant to the discussion, as equally irrelevant as your comparison to dragon ball z.

 

Also, some appear to be trying to discredit Darth Bane. I will take his authority in the EU over any of yours any day.

 

Again, light sith are no where near as powerful as dark sith. No one has yet to provide a reasonable counter argument to my points/examples. Light Sith have their uses, to be the sacrifices of the more powerful.

 

you miss the point entirely. i'm saying as evidenced countless times in the books, tv shows, movies, comics, games ect. that being more powerful with the force doesn't mean a whole lot because someone weaker can beat you just as easily as someone more powerful.

 

you also keep with that "you're interpreting the dark side like a 5 year old would". well why don't you enlighten us instead of insulting us for apparently not understanding some mystical explanation that will make them seem like better written characters.

 

if you actually took the time to actually READ my posts i never disagreed with you. i was saying that a lightside sith might be less powerful than a darkside sith who fully embraced the darkside. i never said you were wrong. i said you were wrong to assume that an arbitrary power level that has NEVER been a factor in any sort of star wars fiction isn't really a big deal. so being slightly less powerful with the force cus you have self control still by being a lightside sith isn't a bad thing.

 

hell, the down fall of almost every sith i can think of is because they are all super darkside and it caused them to be stupid leading to their death, betrayal, falling into a trap. ect. i mean giving completely into the darkside means you're an entirely emotion driven creature. do you know how easy an emotionally driven person can be manipulated and tricked?

 

like you said, other people who aren't as powerful in the force often compensate for that with gadgets and such. so if that counters the huge force power advantage, why fully embrace the darkside like that?

 

and please dont insult us by calling us 5 year olds again. because if im missing something, please explain it in a mature manner. it really doesn't help your point when you come off as an angry guy who's yelling at people cus they disagree.

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1. Technically, yes this is pointless, because clearly nobody is going to change your viewpoint.

 

2. Yeah... No. They're still very strong. A LS Warrior or LS Inquisitor can kill their..... You know who's just a well (maybe better) then their DS counterparts.

 

3. Yes. Yes they are. The only really interesting DS options in the game are the turning of Jaesa, and the attempted turning of Ashara. Almost every single other choice is just plain stupid evil, and so obvious as to take all excitment from the game.

 

What's a "fiver year old"?

 

4. You know, by his own rules, Bane is the weakest and least knowledgeable of the Sith Lords, right?

 

5. I vehemently disagree, and have noted that your examples have not included any weak LS Sith.

 

That's because they haven't existed yet. Because the canon for their existance is being made in this game now.

 

1) Yes, they clearly aren't. Except maybe clonedzero because he agrees with my premise.

 

2) What? Was that supposed to be some form of evidence?

 

3) So because the game examples fail to meet your expectations youre going to castrate all dark side characters? And i personally found the entire story for the sw to be very entertaining. While some dark side options might seem rather arbitrary, others were excellent in testing the players resolve to the darkside. And if youre tired of seeing examples from the darth bane series, look at Deceived and the reasons behind Malgus's decision to kill his twilek love. Again, an excellent explanation of the true nature of the darkside as well as showing exactly how meangingful darkside choices are.

 

Why am i not surprised that you weren't able to induce what I was trying to say? I think a FIVE year old would have been able to make that inferrence.

 

4) No, he isn't. I'm not sure how you can possibly draw that non sequitor from the creator of the rule of two (who can also be indirectly attributed to the destruction of the jedi). That is unless you want to argue that since every preceeding sith is more powerful than his master, Bane is the weakest sith due to him being first in line.

 

5) Yes, they have. The example of what bane needed to do to stay alive showed where a light sith would have failed because

a) the light sith would not have access to the healing powers of the jedi

b) the light sith would not have been able to draw complete strength from the darkside as bane did.

 

I imagine the light sith to be like a failed hybrid spec, taking a few abilities from 2 to 3 completely different trees and missing access to the most powerful abilities of those said trees. (and no, im not dissing hybrid specs. if thats your immediate reaction, reread what i just wrote).

Edited by Sireene
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you miss the point entirely. i'm saying as evidenced countless times in the books, tv shows, movies, comics, games ect. that being more powerful with the force doesn't mean a whole lot because someone weaker can beat you just as easily as someone more powerful.

 

you also keep with that "you're interpreting the dark side like a 5 year old would". well why don't you enlighten us instead of insulting us for apparently not understanding some mystical explanation that will make them seem like better written characters.

 

if you actually took the time to actually READ my posts i never disagreed with you. i was saying that a lightside sith might be less powerful than a darkside sith who fully embraced the darkside. i never said you were wrong. i said you were wrong to assume that an arbitrary power level that has NEVER been a factor in any sort of star wars fiction isn't really a big deal. so being slightly less powerful with the force cus you have self control still by being a lightside sith isn't a bad thing.

 

hell, the down fall of almost every sith i can think of is because they are all super darkside and it caused them to be stupid leading to their death, betrayal, falling into a trap. ect. i mean giving completely into the darkside means you're an entirely emotion driven creature. do you know how easy an emotionally driven person can be manipulated and tricked?

 

like you said, other people who aren't as powerful in the force often compensate for that with gadgets and such. so if that counters the huge force power advantage, why fully embrace the darkside like that?

 

and please dont insult us by calling us 5 year olds again. because if im missing something, please explain it in a mature manner. it really doesn't help your point when you come off as an angry guy who's yelling at people cus they disagree.

 

First of all, I'm not sure how you can draw a correlation between "how a five year old would interpret it" and yelling. At the worst, that might have been slightly condescending.

 

At the end of the second book in the Darth Bane series, Bane and his apprentice must fight the top 5 jedi masters of the time. This fight is, for lack of a better phrase, f****** awesome. It also has some mmo mechanics too it as well such as tanking and healing. That said, there were several key factors that allowed bane and his apprentice to win. I'm assuming you have actually read the series so I will only remind you of the most important factor. Bane's armor consisted of orbalisks which served as strong protection against the jedi. These orbalisks, literally FED on the dark side. Had bane been weaker in the darkside he would not have been able to use them, thus making himself completely vulnerable to the jedi. This is yet another specific example i have provided.

 

The downfall of the sith is more directly attributed to infighting than any other external influence. As i said earlier, i have developed my own philosophy different from the rule of 2 and the pre Ruusan sith philosophy. It is not relevant to this argument but i would be perfectly willing to discuss it in a different thread.

 

Ha, it gives them an edge but it doesnt make them equal. I LOVE the Fetts, from cassus to boba but that doesnt make them superior to force users. All of jangos gadgets barely allowed him to escape from obi wan, and, as much as i hate the jedi, mace killed jango pretty easily. And, lets not look at how Boba died before the eu resurrected him. (though jeter also presented Boba Fett as someone who makes dark side choices and he was ALSO interesting. yet another example i have provided). This as been pretty thoroughly discussed on other threads. I love mandos and my main is a bh but lets be pragmatic. Im also skeptical about the qualities of Beskar but if im going to agree with orbalisks i probably have to concede on the whole beskar issue too (even though we all know traviss took a lot of liberties with her novels).

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1) Yes, they clearly aren't. Except maybe clonedzero because he agrees with my premise.

 

2) What? Was that supposed to be some form of evidence?

 

3) So because the game examples fail to meet your expectations youre going to castrate all dark side characters? And i personally found the entire story for the sw to be very entertaining. While some dark side options might seem rather arbitrary, others were excellent in testing the players resolve to the darkside. And if youre tired of seeing examples from the darth bane series, look at Deceived and the reasons behind Malgus's decision to kill his twilek love. Again, an excellent explanation of the true nature of the darkside as well as showing exactly how meangingful darkside choices are.

 

Why am i not surprised that you weren't able to induce what I was trying to say? I think a FIVE year old would have been able to make that inferrence.

 

4) No, he isn't. I'm not sure how you can possibly draw that non sequitor from the creator of the rule of two (who can also be indirectly attributed to the destruction of the jedi). That is unless you want to argue that since every preceeding sith is more powerful than his master, Bane is the weakest sith due to him being first in line.

 

5) Yes, they have. The example of what bane needed to do to stay alive showed where a light sith would have failed because

a) the light sith would not have access to the healing powers of the jedi

b) the light sith would not have been able to draw complete strength from the darkside as bane did.

 

I imagine the light sith to be like a failed hybrid spec, taking a few abilities from 2 to 3 completely different trees and missing access to the most powerful abilities of those said trees. (and no, im not dissing hybrid specs. if thats your immediate reaction, reread what i just wrote).

 

2.

A LS Sith can kill Darth Thanaton and Darth Baras with the exact same amount of difficulty as a DS Sith. The same goes for every other enemy in the game as well.

 

 

3. Okay.... Let's pull up an example, shall we?

 

On Corellia, as a SW, you need to track down a spy of Baras', and shut down his operations. Upon meeting him, you find out that he's a deep cover plant in the resistance, and is constantly leading Republic troops into unwinnable battles. This man is almost single-handedly winning the fight for the Empire, and his death will result in huge Imperial losses.

 

The Dark Side option is, of course, to just kill him. Great job. You just prolonged the war at the cost of The Empire.

 

The LS option is to recrute him for Darth Vowrawn: Defeating resistance holdouts across Coronet city with fewer Imperial deaths. Everything is better for everyone.

 

One of those options is stupid. One of them is smart. Take your pick.

 

At least 85% of the other Dark Side options fall into the same system.

 

3. A. It was a joke. At your expense. Because you failed to spell the word five.

 

4. Then I suppose the Rule of Two was a failure then. If Bane was already the pinnacle of Sith knowledge on the Force, his entire Order was pointless.

 

5. A. Why?

B. Why?

 

Still not seeing your logic.

 

 

Edit:

 

At the end of the second book in the Darth Bane series, Bane and his apprentice must fight the top 5 jedi masters of the time. This fight is, for lack of a better phrase, f****** awesome. It also has some mmo mechanics too it as well such as tanking and healing. That said, there were several key factors that allowed bane and his apprentice to win. I'm assuming you have actually read the series so I will only remind you of the most important factor. Bane's armor consisted of orbalisks which served as strong protection against the jedi. These orbalisks, literally FED on the dark side. Had bane been weaker in the darkside he would not have been able to use them, thus making himself completely vulnerable to the jedi. This is yet another specific example i have provided.

 

And Bane eventually removed the orbalisks because he realized they were weakening him.

Edited by Sireene
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2.

A LS Sith can kill Darth Thanaton and Darth Baras with the exact same amount of difficulty as a DS Sith. The same goes for every other enemy in the game as well.

 

 

3. Okay.... Let's pull up an example, shall we?

 

On Corellia, as a SW, you need to track down a spy of Baras', and shut down his operations. Upon meeting him, you find out that he's a deep cover plant in the resistance, and is constantly leading Republic troops into unwinnable battles. This man is almost single-handedly winning the fight for the Empire, and his death will result in huge Imperial losses.

 

The Dark Side option is, of course, to just kill him. Great job. You just prolonged the war at the cost of The Empire.

 

The LS option is to recrute him for Darth Vowrawn: Defeating resistance holdouts across Coronet city with fewer Imperial deaths. Everything is better for everyone.

 

One of those options is stupid. One of them is smart. Take your pick.

 

At least 85% of the other Dark Side options fall into the same system.

 

3. A. It was a joke. At your expense. Because you failed to spell the word five.

 

4. Then I suppose the Rule of Two was a failure then. If Bane was already the pinnacle of Sith knowledge on the Force, his entire Order was pointless.

 

5. A. Why?

B. Why?

 

Still not seeing your logic.

 

 

Edit:

 

 

 

And Bane eventually removed the orbalisks because he realized they were weakening him.

 

2. That's game mechanics, last time I checked this was a lore forum.

 

3. I personally struggled with this decision myself, but not for the reason you think. Firstly, I wouldn't classify letting him live as a light side option. It is purely the machiavellian thing to do. And by the jedi standards, machiavellian choices are darkside choices. But even so, I would classify that as neutral choice and if this game was meant to accurately reflect the lore it should have been a neutral choice. I killed him because I have no mercy for the associates of baras, but thats purely a personal decision. Again, i have already conceded that ls sith have their purposes, but they are still not as powerful as ds sith.

 

Demonstrating that you lack basic inferrence skills is a joke at my expense? Okey dokey. :rolleyes:

 

4. And with that comment you completely summarize your complete misunderstanding of the darkside and star wars lore in general. Explain the Rule of Two's failure to the thousands of jedi that died as a result of Order 66.

 

5. a&b) The Bane series states in BLACK AND WHITE that the dark side is weak in the healing arts. Bane, recognizing this, uses the grief and misery of the father of the children he killed to sustain himself. This is a dark side choice in every sense of the word. A light sith would not have access to the healing powers of the jedi and would not have been able to sustain himself with the dark side choice.

But it goes so much farther than that in all aspects of the force. Refer to my game mechanics allusion, the light sith fundamentally is inferior to the dark sith in every way imaginable. Culling them from the order is counter productive, as you pointed out, because they serve a purpose. The best choice would be to eliminate the light sith who attempt to reform the system. Now Bane saw this whole system to be insufficient. When creating the role of two he sought to establish an order that would both protect against the damaging infighting of the sith and yet maintain the strength of life and death competition. Some agree with this, some dont. I have my own philosophy, but the bottom line is that light sith have no place in the rule of two because they will never be able to overcome their masters. It is so obvious I'm not sure why you're even trying to argue against it.

 

Yes, that represents the fundamental problem of the dark side and forms the center of all jedi's arguments against the darkside. Using the darkside to its maximum potential drains your strength.

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are you saying because darth bane said something that makes it fact?

 

There's lots of things said by characters that are quite simply untrue. Just because a character says something doesn't mean it's objectively true, only that the character in question thinks it's true...

 

Or is lying about it, for some reason.

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There's lots of things said by characters that are quite simply untrue. Just because a character says something doesn't mean it's objectively true, only that the character in question thinks it's true...

 

Or is lying about it, for some reason.

 

haha you completely missed the point of this discussion entirely. We arent talking about some specific quote of Bane'

s but his philosophy overall.

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Oh I see, yeah that's completely different.... :rolleyes:

 

I would really like to applaud you for your contribution to this discussion. Your comments have really progressed the discussion! :rolleyes:

 

You're just distracting from the debate but yes, there is a very clear difference from a statement and a theme. I would recommend you consider retaking middle school English.

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I would really like to applaud you for your contribution to this discussion. Your comments have really progressed the discussion! :rolleyes:

 

You're just distracting from the debate but yes, there is a very clear difference from a statement and a theme. I would recommend you consider retaking middle school English.

 

You... You do understand that a theme is VERY different from a philosophy, yes? And that both can be incorrect or inconsistent, especially when established by a character who is not omniscient?

 

 

2. That's game mechanics, last time I checked this was a lore forum.

 

3. I personally struggled with this decision myself, but not for the reason you think. Firstly, I wouldn't classify letting him live as a light side option. It is purely the machiavellian thing to do. And by the jedi standards, machiavellian choices are darkside choices. But even so, I would classify that as neutral choice and if this game was meant to accurately reflect the lore it should have been a neutral choice. I killed him because I have no mercy for the associates of baras, but thats purely a personal decision. Again, i have already conceded that ls sith have their purposes, but they are still not as powerful as ds sith.

 

Demonstrating that you lack basic inferrence skills is a joke at my expense? Okey dokey. :rolleyes:

 

4. And with that comment you completely summarize your complete misunderstanding of the darkside and star wars lore in general. Explain the Rule of Two's failure to the thousands of jedi that died as a result of Order 66.

 

5. a&b) The Bane series states in BLACK AND WHITE that the dark side is weak in the healing arts. Bane, recognizing this, uses the grief and misery of the father of the children he killed to sustain himself. This is a dark side choice in every sense of the word. A light sith would not have access to the healing powers of the jedi and would not have been able to sustain himself with the dark side choice.

But it goes so much farther than that in all aspects of the force. Refer to my game mechanics allusion, the light sith fundamentally is inferior to the dark sith in every way imaginable. Culling them from the order is counter productive, as you pointed out, because they serve a purpose. The best choice would be to eliminate the light sith who attempt to reform the system. Now Bane saw this whole system to be insufficient. When creating the role of two he sought to establish an order that would both protect against the damaging infighting of the sith and yet maintain the strength of life and death competition. Some agree with this, some dont. I have my own philosophy, but the bottom line is that light sith have no place in the rule of two because they will never be able to overcome their masters. It is so obvious I'm not sure why you're even trying to argue against it.

 

Yes, that represents the fundamental problem of the dark side and forms the center of all jedi's arguments against the darkside. Using the darkside to its maximum potential drains your strength.

 

2. Yep, it's game mechanics. But it's also LORE that Baras and Thanaton were still defeated by the Warrior and Inquisitor, regardless of alignment.

 

Apparently, whatever power differential that exists between LS and DS Sith is so small as to be a non-issue.

 

3. If we're classifying LS DS options in that manor, then it's not even a matter as to which Side of the Force the chooser is leaning to anymore. It's a matter of smart vs. stupid.

 

4. Notice that Banes Order was destroyed because the Emperor was too evil for his own good. If he hadn't felt the need to cackle manically and urge Luke to the Dark Side, Vader would've died and Luke would have fell. Because of that one choice to be too bloody evil, the death of the Republic and the destruction of the Jedi became a hollow, temporary victory.

 

A LS choice there would have led the Empire into a new golden age.

 

5. Again, notice that Bane was a DARK SIDED SITH. He didn't even try any alternative, and cut down the family because it was quicker and easier.

 

And again, LS Sith in this game seem to have no problem usurping their masters, when push comes to shove.

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You... You do understand that a theme is VERY different from a philosophy, yes? And that both can be incorrect or inconsistent, especially when established by a character who is not omniscient?

 

 

 

 

2. Yep, it's game mechanics. But it's also LORE that Baras and Thanaton were still defeated by the Warrior and Inquisitor, regardless of alignment.

 

Apparently, whatever power differential that exists between LS and DS Sith is so small as to be a non-issue.

 

3. If we're classifying LS DS options in that manor, then it's not even a matter as to which Side of the Force the chooser is leaning to anymore. It's a matter of smart vs. stupid.

 

4. Notice that Banes Order was destroyed because the Emperor was too evil for his own good. If he hadn't felt the need to cackle manically and urge Luke to the Dark Side, Vader would've died and Luke would have fell. Because of that one choice to be too bloody evil, the death of the Republic and the destruction of the Jedi became a hollow, temporary victory.

 

A LS choice there would have led the Empire into a new golden age.

 

5. Again, notice that Bane was a DARK SIDED SITH. He didn't even try any alternative, and cut down the family because it was quicker and easier.

 

And again, LS Sith in this game seem to have no problem usurping their masters, when push comes to shove.

 

Hold on, are we now going to debate the authority of Drew's writing in the lore universe? As I said before, I'll take his authority over any of yours any day.

 

2. Video game lore. :rolleyes: Kotor has atleast some basis of credibility because its a single player game.

 

3. In this particular example. It's not my fault you picked an example that is irrelevant to which side of the force you're on.

 

4. That shows that SIdious made a poor choice in vader as an apprentice but that doesnt have anything to do with the light vs dark debate.

 

5. The alternative? Becoming a jedi? I think it was made perfectly clear why he didn't try the alternative.

 

"In this game." Again, I would like to remind you that we're in the lore forums. But if you want to draw an analogy to the game, my marauder would beat your failed hybrid any day of the week (if you follow my earlier allusion).

 

Since you're largely ignoring most of my points and going off on tangents not directly related to the topic, I think we can agree that this debate is concluded, or as close to being concluded as it ever will be.

 

To summarize, Light Sith are useful as pawns to promote the agenda of the empire, but they will never be as powerful as dark sith and thus will never be as potent against the jedi.

 

Now, would you like to argue about why Dark Jedi are the third weakest of the Light Jedi, Dark Jedi, Light Sith, Dark Sith scheme of things? Or perhaps we could debate the merits of the rule of two, since that is where you seem to be wanting to take this discussion.

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Hold on, are we now going to debate the authority of Drew's writing in the lore universe? As I said before, I'll take his authority over any of yours any day.

 

2. Video game lore. :rolleyes: Kotor has atleast some basis of credibility because its a single player game.

 

3. In this particular example. It's not my fault you picked an example that is irrelevant to which side of the force you're on.

 

4. That shows that SIdious made a poor choice in vader as an apprentice but that doesnt have anything to do with the light vs dark debate.

 

5. The alternative? Becoming a jedi? I think it was made perfectly clear why he didn't try the alternative.

 

"In this game." Again, I would like to remind you that we're in the lore forums. But if you want to draw an analogy to the game, my marauder would beat your failed hybrid any day of the week (if you follow my earlier allusion).

 

Since you're largely ignoring most of my points and going off on tangents not directly related to the topic, I think we can agree that this debate is concluded, or as close to being concluded as it ever will be.

 

To summarize, Light Sith are useful as pawns to promote the agenda of the empire, but they will never be as powerful as dark sith and thus will never be as potent against the jedi.

 

1. I'm not debating Drew's credibility as a writer. I'm debating Darth Bane's authority as the be-all end-all of Dark Side knowledge.

 

2. So now this game just doesn't count? Nice.

 

3. I could bring up any number of other examples. The poisoning of the rebel slaves on Dromund Kaas. Killing the resistance leader on Balmorra vs. getting him to rat out the Republic. Killing Master Timmns. Killing the Selonians vs using them for slave labor.

 

For every one Dark Side option that improves the Empires chances of winning the war, there are five LS options to the same effect.

 

4. Sidious was so evil, he inadvertently caused the destruction of his own Empire.

 

I'd say that's pretty pertinent to the topic at hand.

 

5. The alternative of even attempting to try anything else. NOT becoming a Jedi.

 

6. Not to match characters here, but i'd say my own Marauder would be more then a quick bout for your own.

 

7. It has become pretty clear that this is going nowhere fast.

 

8. I'll end with this: In every incarnation of the Sith Empire, we have never been able to permanently defeat the Jedi and Republic as we are. We have been destroyed by out own pride, arrogance, and hubris every time. Every. Single. Time. We need to change.

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My neutral Inquisitor is sort of let's say, superficially insane. All the snark, all the trolling, all the laughter, but puts every decision in appropriate context. Gain a new ally by not torturing a puppy? Yes

Lightning to the face because they're avoiding the question and hiding something? Oh yes

 

 

Kind of the philosophy here is "Jedi live their lives in fear of their emotions, most Sith are slaves to them. It seems I'm the only truly free one left." Darth Occulus ftw.

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I'm debating Darth Bane's authority as the be-all end-all of Dark Side knowledge.

 

Bane's knowledge of this era is going to be inherently flawed because of the fairly vast amount of time between now and then. So anything he says is subject to his own opinion and point of view. Nothing he says can be taken as objective truth unless it's backed up by some other objective source.

 

Because it's clear from what Obi-Wan said, that many of the truths in Star Wars is based on one's own point of view.

 

3. I could bring up any number of other examples.

 

Don't bother, because any example that doesn't fit into his PoV doesn't count... Just like this game doesn't count, or any other example that proves him wrong. The thread on crystal colors is a prime example of this, every single case that was brought up to prove that alignment restrictions were contrary to lore, he simply dismissed out of hand, claiming they didn't count, or were such a rare case that it still shouldn't be allowed.

 

He has clearly in his own mind decided that he and he alone is the ultimate authority on lore, so there is simply no point in debating with him.

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My "do whatever potentially screws the empire more" mostly-LS manquisitor has been a hoot. ;)

 

No one seems to care when I pick LS stuff ... I even had one guy LIKE that I won the roll because he had never seen what the LS option even did.

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My "do whatever potentially screws the empire more" mostly-LS manquisitor has been a hoot. ;)

 

No one seems to care when I pick LS stuff ... I even had one guy LIKE that I won the roll because he had never seen what the LS option even did.

 

That's a new one, most LSers fit in with 'make the empire a better place for all', rather than straight-up sabotage. Say what you will about the writing, but they gave the players a lot of agency, changing the themes of their own stories and allowing them to mean different things depending on how you see your character.

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Well, I figure he's an ex-slave, not REALLY into the whole sith thing, so screw the Empire! It does mean he picks dark side options sometimes, of course, but a lot of them tend towards light side. Of course, sometimes all the choices are a wash Empire-helping-wise, so then he usually picks whichever is less rude (especially if he has Talos with him).

 

Balmorra was the best planet for light side "haha, bite me, Empire" choices. ;)

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