Trying to play a light side Guardian who preserves life wherever possible. She actively avoids opponents when she can, and always chooses the option to spare her opponents.

 

It's been bothering me that I'm forced to kill thousands of people. Fighting the empire and sith, obviously, you must kill during a war, but this came to a particular head during the Depths of Manaan flashpoint, where you're forced to slaughter dozens of guards and personnel such as medics who are only doing their jobs.

 

My Shadow would just sneak past them. but my Guardian has to kill them.

 

I wish they would have made them droids.

Trying to play a light side Guardian who preserves life wherever possible. She actively avoids opponents when she can, and always chooses the option to spare her opponents.

 

It's been bothering me that I'm forced to kill thousands of people. Fighting the empire and sith, obviously, you must kill during a war, but this came to a particular head during the Depths of Manaan flashpoint, where you're forced to slaughter dozens of guards and personnel such as medics who are only doing their jobs.

 

My Shadow would just sneak past them. but my Guardian has to kill them.

 

I wish they would have made them droids.

I think the key lies in those words "preserves life wherever possible". In DoM, you're faced with a "kill or be killed and also let die bazillions of people when whatever it is that you're trying to stop goes down" situation.

 

So either you kill these people or you and half (or more) of the galaxy dies, 100% for sure.

 

Put like that, the decision may be (1) easier and (2) more consistent with being "light side".

It helps a bit, thanks!

Those Selkath Guards and Medics are not simply some innocent Selkath who are doing their jobs. They are members of the Cult of Revan, attempting to help Revan build an unstoppable army of Rakata-tech grafted cyborgs.

 

The "Medics" are not like doctors at your local hospital who took an oath to preserve lives. These "Medics" are doctors who are running horrific experiments, torturing innocent people whom they have kidnapped (like Jakarro), in order to turn them into unwilling slaves and mindless killing machines. While the nameplate above their head reads 'Selkath Medic', a more appropriate title would be 'Cultist Torture Doctor'. And when you realize what exactly they're doing with those medical skills, it becomes much easier to see why they need to die in order to protect their future potential victims.

 

Similarly, the guards here are not just innocent local security. They are members of the Cult of Revan. The guards are throughout the entire complex, including the torture labs and the kidnapping holding cells. They may be nameplated 'Selkath Guard' but a more accurate title is 'Cultist Terrorist Assigned to Murder Anyone Who Discovers Their Plot'.

 

The fact that these are actual cultists swayed under the Cult of Revan, and not just droids, shows how deep this conspiracy goes, and how dangerous Revan is. He has hundreds of people plotting with him to help him ultimately destroy half the galaxy. This is a situation where honestly every single person you are putting down is guilty and chose to be there.

 

In contrast, even when fighting the Empire, it's hard not to think about how many of these soldiers are simply people who had the misfortune of being born into the Empire, and were lied to and manipulated by corrupt Sith Lords until they were deceived into fighting against the Republic (and often other Imperials due to all the in-fighting the Sith obsess over).

you could always turn to the dark side...

Those Selkath Guards and Medics are not simply some innocent Selkath who are doing their jobs. They are members of the Cult of Revan, attempting to help Revan build an unstoppable army of Rakata-tech grafted cyborgs.

 

But even when you actually are on the forged alliances questline, and didn't just get the flashpoint randomly and out of context, your char doesn't know what's going on yet. Your ominous contact (who turns out to be working closely with a Sith) tells you those people are evil and part of a conspiracy, so you are supposed to slaughter them. Something smells fishy here, and it's not just the Selkath.

 

 

On the other hand, the Jedi *are* operating above the law, free to snatch children away from their parents, use brainwash and force of arms to solve trade disputes in their favour, and kill or mutilate people as they see fit. No one dares to question the legitimacy of a jedi's actions, lest they also be declared "evil". What's a few dead scientists to a member of a cult that is known to send assassins to remove heads of state that don't share their religious views?

 

At least the Sith are honest about what they are.

Edited June 9, 2018 by Mubrak

Honestly I take the same approach that I do in RPGs, if someone is willing to give up and surrender I'll accept it but if they force my hand I'll have to kill them, it won't bring my character joy by doing so but he'll bear that guilt because he tried to stop the situation from getting to that point.

My JC is a ruthless and arrogant Knight Templar, I don't feel any wrong. she thought she was right and for the greater good.

In lore, nonlethal lightsaber attacks aren't too uncommon, so since none of the deaths matter storywise, you can headcanon that you're only wounding them enough to convince them to stop fighting.

But even when you actually are on the forged alliances questline, and didn't just get the flashpoint randomly and out of context, your char doesn't know what's going on yet. Your ominous contact (who turns out to be working closely with a Sith) tells you those people are evil and part of a conspiracy, so you are supposed to slaughter them. Something smells fishy here, and it's not just the Selkath.

Even though you don't know what, ultimately, is in the works (my earlier response had overlooked that point), what do you know? (Sorry, it's all spoilerish, so spoilerbox.)

 

 

The various members of the facility, guards, droids, scientists, and so on, all attack you, and being a Light Side Jedi does not forbid you from defending yourself.

 

In a way, killing everyone is more "wrong" for a Shadow than it is for Sage, Sentinel, and Guardian, since the Shadow has stealth and can (in theory at least) sneak past most of the foes.

My issue with the FP is what they did with the Order of Shaasa! In the Original KOTOR a LS Revan saves Selkath youth from the clutches of the Sith, but you end up killing them all 300yrs later. Then again, I hate EVERYTHING they did to Revan! Including making Revan MALE.

My issue with the FP is what they did with the Order of Shaasa! In the Original KOTOR a LS Revan saves Selkath youth from the clutches of the Sith, but you end up killing them all 300yrs later. Then again, I hate EVERYTHING they did to Revan! Including making Revan MALE.

 

Blame Lucasfilm for establishing the canon way before SWTOR was a thing, same thing happened with every other RPG released, a canon ending. As for the Order of Shaasa, well it's been 300 years, the order's ideals could've been corrupted, and thus we have to consider whether they did on their own or Revan Reborn or his revanites showed up there and made them what they are today.

Oh I do.

I roleplay a "fallen" corrupted dark side Jedi Knight as my main, and I do take issue with everyone still treating him as a proper good Jedi. In proper lore he would have been denounced and exiled, criminalized even by now. But since there is no option to ally to no-one, I'm just gonna have to roll with it and assume Republic merely tolerating him and keeping my murderjedi around because he is their strongest asset in their current war effort.

 

SPOILER I mean, during KOTFE he even tried to even murder Satele, yet after Iokath she sends me a very friendly letter praising him and welcoming him back to Republic

 

I really do wish they would have kept the beta ending choice for JK, where you would have been titled a General rather than Master if you were dark side.

Edited July 6, 2018 by Kiesu

I roleplay a "fallen" corrupted dark side Jedi Knight as my main, and I do take issue with everyone still treating him as a proper good Jedi. In proper lore he would have been denounced and exiled, criminalized even by now. But since there is no option to ally to no-one, I'm just gonna have to roll with it and assume Republic merely tolerating him and keeping my murderjedi around because he is their strongest asset in their current war effort.

 

SPOILER I mean, during KOTFE he even tried to even murder Satele, yet after Iokath she sends me a very friendly letter praising him and welcoming him back to Republic

 

I really do wish they would have kept the beta ending choice for JK, where you would have been titled a General rather than Master if you were dark side.

 

Agreed. Although it makes sense the Jedi might keep you as an asset Satele shouldn't have granted you the rank of Master if you're DS, a shame really because General would actually be a really cool title and it's not like the Jedi weren't ever called that "General Kenobi" "General Skywalker". Same thing with SW and the Wrath title.

Do they even attempt to talk to you?

 

If not, then move to my next question.

 

Do they try to attack you?

 

If yes, then you are only defending yourself.

 

Do they even try to surrender?

 

If not, then it is out of your hands. They don't try to surrender. They just want to kill you.

 

And since I have done this flashpoint a few million times you really don't have a choice. As soon as you walk in they attack you so in the case of my sage (who is lightside V) she has no choice but to defend herself.

Edited July 6, 2018 by casirabit

Trying to play a light side Guardian who preserves life wherever possible. She actively avoids opponents when she can, and always chooses the option to spare her opponents.

 

It's been bothering me that I'm forced to kill thousands of people. Fighting the empire and sith, obviously, you must kill during a war, but this came to a particular head during the Depths of Manaan flashpoint, where you're forced to slaughter dozens of guards and personnel such as medics who are only doing their jobs.

 

My Shadow would just sneak past them. but my Guardian has to kill them.

 

I wish they would have made them droids.

 

They're all on alert and ready to kill you. You're not exactly killing innocent people doing innocent things.

 

However, let's go with the job aspect. You're killing Troopers who are just doing their job. Innocent soldiers, some who were forced into the life by the Empire.

 

The whole Inquisitor story line starts with the PC Sith being forced into the training...and being expected to die.

 

Also, you don't have to think of it as killing them (except in cutscenes). Sure, the meta part has you attacking all the time, but you could just as easily say you're not killing them. Especially since, people don't generally survive one hit with the light saber, and the enemies you're fighting are surviving multiple hits.

Although the game forces you to "Kill" certain enemies in certain areas, it's never explicitly said that they're dead. Maybe your character is just subduing them or knocking them out?

 

A good example of this is the Blood Hunt mission in Shadow of Revan. Going through the Flashpoint, you defeat a bunch of Mandalorian enemies, two of which make up the second boss (the Beroyas). But did your character actually kill all those Mandos? Nope. At the end of the Flashpoint, we receive a cutscene where all the Mandos we defeated come limping into Shae's arena. They're injured, but definitely still alive. This survival is double-confirmed by the fact that we later see Mandos like the Beroyas show up in KOTFE.

 

So with that in mind, my head canon (at least for Light Side Jedi characters) is that my characters are subduing enemy grunts rather than killing them.

Edited July 8, 2018 by Kataret

So with that in mind, my head canon (at least for Light Side Jedi characters) is that my characters are subduing enemy grunts rather than killing them.

 

On the other hand, even in the movies supposedly "good" and light side Jedi seem to have no problem with killing or maiming opponents that could perhaps be stopped with a mind trick. They don't stop to ask themself why someone points a weapon at them, they swing first and never ask.

 

At a guess this too is a result of the corruption and degeneration within the Order - the Jedi have over time become so sure of their own righteousness that they can't even see why someone would oppose their quest for "good". Anyone who says no, like a security guard keeping trespassers out of his employer's warehouse, is automatically "evil" if he resists the Jedi and thus perfectly OK to kill or maim.

On the other hand, even in the movies supposedly "good" and light side Jedi seem to have no problem with killing or maiming opponents that could perhaps be stopped with a mind trick. They don't stop to ask themself why someone points a weapon at them, they swing first and never ask.

 

At a guess this too is a result of the corruption and degeneration within the Order - the Jedi have over time become so sure of their own righteousness that they can't even see why someone would oppose their quest for "good". Anyone who says no, like a security guard keeping trespassers out of his employer's warehouse, is automatically "evil" if he resists the Jedi and thus perfectly OK to kill or maim.

 

I'm not trying to challenge you, but we really don't see it that often in the movies. In the prequel era we see the Jedi almost always fighting droids, so there really is no life taking there (probably the reason we fought so many skytroopers in the latest xpacs). The originals we see more of that between obi wan and luke, but at that point the Jedi are broken and in kind of a "desperate times call for desperate measures" scenario.

 

Though your theory about the slow corruption of the order can still apply, saying that in the TOR era your character is still harmlessly subduing them, while by the time of the movies they are more careless and less concerned with maiming.

Who exactly did we see Obi-Wan kill in A New Hope? Maimed possibly killed wanted murderers, who were threatening to kill Luke, for a minor shoulder bump in a crowded club.

 

He may have killed some Storm Troopers, but they're the enemy. An evil force. Doesn't matter if they're rank and file soldiers, they're still part of the evil Empire.

I kinda think of it like Willy Wonka (the Gene Wilder version) when he's telling the kids, no, stop, don't do that, in that monotone voice when they're eating things, taking things, or standing on things they shouldn't. It's not (necessarily) that he wants something to happen to them, but more that he knows they're not going to listen and sometimes you have to learn to live (or not) with the consequences or your actions. If I say (when I'm given the option) "no, let's not fight, let's find another way," and they're like, "nah, pew-pew-pew," then they have to deal with the consequence that they were offered a choice and chose to eat my lightsaber.

Who exactly did we see Obi-Wan kill in A New Hope? Maimed possibly killed wanted murderers, who were threatening to kill Luke, for a minor shoulder bump in a crowded club.

 

He may have killed some Storm Troopers, but they're the enemy. An evil force. Doesn't matter if they're rank and file soldiers, they're still part of the evil Empire.

 

We don't see him kill any Stormtroopers either. He stealthed his way through the Death Star.

We don't see him kill any Stormtroopers either. He stealthed his way through the Death Star.

 

Thanks for the clarification. I was referring more so to that guy in the bar, but what you say furthers my point that we really don't see maiming/killing in the movies. Plus, it makes sense that Luke might have killed Stormtroopers. He wasn't properly trained as a Jedi, and he is more of a Rebel Soldier than a Jedi. Not that he kills that many Stormtroopers anyway.

We don't see him kill any Stormtroopers either. He stealthed his way through the Death Star.

 

If you watch the Clone Wars series though, combat and war are in a lot bigger role on that series and Obi (and the rest of the jedi appearing in it) definitely don't have clean hands.

Jedi are pacifistic wherever they can but don't shy away from conflict if the situation demands it.

Edited July 17, 2018 by Kiesu