I hope to get some input on this strat. My group tried this last night and it seemed to be a good idea at first, but we didn't pull it off. Most of our failures were due to avoidable mistakes, so we could iron out the mistakes and continue with this strat, or go back to the boss swap strat.

 

It went like this:

 

1. 2 Ranged dps on Zorn at 29.5 meters

2. 2 Melee dps on Toth

3. At 90/70/50/30/10 ranged step back so as to not get fearful.

5. Toth jumps.

4. Tanks taunt and then they run to the opposite sides, leaving the drouks in the same positions.

5. Melee stay on Toth

6. Ranged step forward and resume attacking Zorn

 

Because the melee are always on Toth they don't get the fearful debuff. Because the ranged can step back they don't get it either.

 

The theory behind this strat was to increase dps uptime on the bosses, though as I mentioned, we weren't quite able to succeed. That said, most of our wipes were due to stupid stuff like someone getting killed by the red circles at 60/40. So once we get coordinated, it is possible this strat could work.

 

Any input would be welcome.

That's the default strategy most groups use for HM Zorn and Toth. So yes, it works.

Indeed - this is how we have been killing them since week 1 with our 16 man raid (so 5 rdps and 5 melee, rest is the same).

 

We have more recently put together a second raid group that does it and 8 man and found it much easier to have that group switch for some reason (so having Z+T switch places).

Thank you very much, this is good to know.

 

I have a couple of additional questions.

 

I've alternately heard that fearful debuff is received by players within 25m of Toth, 30m of Toth, 25m of Zorn and 30m of Zorn. I've been assuming that 30m of Zorn is the correct version, but I'm not 100% certain.

 

HOWEVER, the jump doesn't always happen right at 90/70/50/30/10, sometimes there is a delay. So I've gotten in the habit of hitting 70% (for example), stepping back out of range and waiting for the jump. Sometimes I've had to wait 15-20 seconds for the jump to happen and that's a lot of no-DPS, which is bad.

 

How is this generally handled in the "stay on Zorn" strat?

 

The other problem we ran into is that the melee dps are taking a bunch of damage during the jump/pounce stage. We've tried having them stay in it and keep dpsing, and we've had them try running out then leap back in. The former makes the healer's job easier, but the latter means that Toth starts falling behind on DPS.

 

Any suggestions here?

With the strategy you are using your problems don't occur.

The Melee DPS are always on Toth, since He always jumps to Zorn. The melee should never get the debuff unless they attack ZORN. And even if the melee gets the debuff, they aren't switching to attack Zorn so they can continue attacking Toth with the debuff. The debuff only reflects damage back when you attack Zorn. melee doesn't ever have to move from the Toth tanking spot, as long as Toth is in their range they are free to attack.

This is why it's the default tactic. Now if you have all melee DPS and no ranged, you'll have to change to another tactic, which involves boss switching during jumps.

 

The Toth bounce damage has to be soaked up, good time for defensive cooldowns on the melee dps. Also a good idea to have a GOOD AOE healer on Toth.

Edited August 29, 2012 by DSafana

DSafana, thanks.

 

In terms of Fearful, I was referring to ranged. Two of our wipes happened when the ranged dps got Fearful (I was one of them). I was between 25m and 30m of Zorn at the time.

 

When I move back to beyond 30m, I can't dps as I'm out of range. If Toth jumps right an schedule, everything is fine. But the longer he waits to jump, the less dps I'm doing. I'm not sure how close to the wire I can cut it. Is Fearful cast the moment Toth jumps? Right before? Right after?

 

It seems hitting the health percentage, moving back and waiting is the safest bet, but I'm worried about enrage if we have too much dps downtime.

Edited August 29, 2012 by Khevar

My guild has actually only done it where the tanks stay in the same spots the whole time and the bosses switch where they are standing. We find it's much easier to stay at the very exacting distances required in the fight. The ranged group is always on zorn and the melee group is always on toth. We found that the drouks end up with less stacks this way too.

DSafana, thanks.

 

In terms of Fearful, I was referring to ranged. Two of our wipes happened when the ranged dps got Fearful (I was one of them). I was between 25m and 30m of Zorn at the time.

 

When I move back to beyond 30m, I can't dps as I'm out of range. If Toth jumps right an schedule, everything is fine. But the longer he waits to jump, the less dps I'm doing. I'm not sure how close to the wire I can cut it. Is Fearful cast the moment Toth jumps? Right before? Right after?

 

It seems hitting the health percentage, moving back and waiting is the safest bet, but I'm worried about enrage if we have too much dps downtime.

 

Fearful has a 28m range. so if you keep yourself outside of 28m, and within 30m you will always be able to dps. the issue is, whe the tanks are switching targets, Zorn moves around a bit so you have to keep watching your distances.

I've alternately heard that fearful debuff is received by players within 25m of Toth, 30m of Toth, 25m of Zorn and 30m of Zorn. I've been assuming that 30m of Zorn is the correct version, but I'm not 100% certain.

 

Based on my guild observations; it is 25m radius from where Toth lands. we have had ranged get fearfull at 25+ meters from zorn but toth lands towards them and is with in the 25m range. Could be wrong; we never actually set out to confrim it; we just assume to be 25+ meters from the closer one to them.

The radius of the fearful effect starts from the position where Toth lands after he leaps. So if your range dps were positioned such that they were within the effect radius of Toth's landing spot, they will end up getting fearful.

The radius of the fearful effect starts from the position where Toth lands after he leaps. So if your range dps were positioned such that they were within the effect radius of Toth's landing spot, they will end up getting fearful.

This is more or less true, but you have to realize fearful will happen right before toth leaps, but either way it is about positioning them right to make sure dps dont have to stop early.

 

For melee dps we usually have toth and zorn switch sides, while tanks stay in the same spot, and make the melee run in a U shape between the two tanking spots to avoid any and all aoes during the transition phase. As for the berserk aoe from toth, they should be poping a def CD, or jousting (run out and then back in) before it goes off (they should have about 2 or 3 seconds after the red text to get out).

 

As for people being close to toth getting the fearful, you want to make sure you have about 35 to 45M between the tank spots to avoid doubling up aoe's and to prevent both tanks getting fearful, once again a positioning thing.

 

On a side note there are multiple ways of doing this fight, and multiple ways of positioning them, so dont feel like you're stuck doing it one certain way cause of an video/guide.

I can't believe the misinformation that still goes on about fearful.

 

It's 30 meters from the impact when Toth lands on the jump. Position your dps on Zorn correctly, and they will never get fearful.

^ That.

 

Its 30m on the dot from the point Toth lands. Fearful is NOT applied before the jump and is NOT ranged from Zorn.

 

29 Meters angled away from the Toth Side and the Ranged DPS can burn their hearts out. I do however hope you have some heavy melee to make up the difference that happens from ranged always attacking. Ours balances out during rock phases when the melee can continue to dps easier than ranged.

 

heres a diagram

 

--------Tank(Zorn)----------------------------------------------- (Toth)Tank

------------------------------------------------------------------------Dps

 

 

 

----Heals-------------------------------------------------------------Heals

Dps

 

Also as a fun tip make sure your Zorn tank moves to the outisde (Realitive away from Toth) and max range (4 or 10m) Depending right as the rock phases end. This allows them to avoid the huge Smash hit while already low from rock phase. Its tricky to pull off as you have to get the timing down and the tank will instead get knocked back decently far so its best to have a wall to hit but your healers will love you.

Edited August 30, 2012 by Saiyanbob

Zorn's "Fearful" debuff is now correctly restricted to 30 meters. - Patch 1.2.3

 

Based on my own observations it seems more like it is centred on Zorn, but 30m from the centre of a ~2.75m radius hitbox.

 

Ultimately, RDPS standing 29m away from Zorn and perpendicular to the line between Toth and Zorn should be safe. Until nightmare mode maybe

Edited August 30, 2012 by _gideon

Once the tank swap has been finalized, Zorn should not be moving at all. Ranged DPS can use the time from the GCD on their instant casts to fine-tune their position to 29.9m away from Zorn, angled away from Toth. Not only should the ranged group not be getting Fearful, they really shouldn't be taking much, if any, damage.

 

One thing that can give you trouble is if the Zorn tank loses aggro to a ranged DPS right before a jump. This is most common when the Zorn tank is the target of the first boulder. Remind your ranged DPS to use their threat dumps, and have the Zorn tank use some extra taunts to boost threat, and you can avoid this problem.

this strat is dumb you make the tanks move that is longer then taunting the boss unless you have two guardians your strat makes everyone move and get confused

this strat is dumb you make the tanks move that is longer then taunting the boss unless you have two guardians your strat makes everyone move and get confused

"Longer" for whom? The tanks?

 

The whole reason we are trying this strat was to increase dps uptime. What does it matter if it takes the tanks longer to get into position if the dps don't have to move and can resume dps more quickly.

Our guild uses this method on both 8 and 16 man. We prefer it because it only requires the tanks to swap, no ranged get fearful, and there is less damage over all. If you want to see our positioning we have a strat video below.

 

 

 

More video at http://www.chosen-elite.com/strategies

this strat is dumb you make the tanks move that is longer then taunting the boss unless you have two guardians your strat makes everyone move and get confused

 

I hope I'm misunderstanding you.

 

If you swap the tanks on bosses the only people that have to move are the tanks. It's the simplest way to do the fight. You have higher DPS uptime, and you remove difficulty.