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Sorcerer in PVP, Weak


SassyJaxy

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I hate that a DPS can kill me in 3-4 secs and I have 19.5khp and 1294 expertise and cannot even get him down to 2/3 of his health. I know we are healers but the need to defend ourselves in PVP should exist, worst class for Hutt ball too, too slow and very easy to stop and kill. Do other see this too. I going to level one of DPS chars to 50.
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I don't know what you mean, my dps was a little low as lightning, but as Madness it was AWESOME. And I roll as a healer in PvP now, and I ROCK. Huttball is probably my best WZ. I pop my shield, keep my HoT on me with the armor buff, and I can make it to the end no problem. If you are having trouble, I'd say reroll and level up in WZs, that's how I got good with my Sorc
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It does have survivability issue, not dps one.

 

In many WZ, left alone, sorc/sage pulls huge ammount of dps on a group. Therefore, they are bound to be focus fired, and when on my sniper, I make sure to burst them down as they come. I avoid lots of damage to my group, and from range the sorc/sage realize he is under attack only when the shield collapse (more subtle than a mara or jug jumping it)

 

With mine I try to take a position where I can LoS, and avoid being isolated as much as i can. I apply affliction to as many people as possible before unleashing lightning, since when I do its a nice "hi there sorc over here!" sign :p

 

 

 

Edit : fixed typo.

Edited by verfallen
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It does have survivability issue, not dps one.

 

In many WZ, left alone, sorc/sage pulls huge ammount of dps on a group. Therefore, they are bound to be focus fired, and when on my sniper, I make sure to burst them down as they come. I avoid lots of damage to my group, and from range the sorc/sage realize he is under attack only when the shield collapse (more subtle than a mara or jug jumping it)

 

With mine I try to take a position where I can LoS, and avoid being isolated as much as i can. I apply affliction to as many people as possible before unleashing lightning, since when I do its a nice "hi there sorc over here!" sign :p

 

 

 

Edit : fixed typo.

 

Well going by the class feedback topic in the sorc section there is a DPS problem many of the pvpers say that sorc has a dps problem why do you think none of the dps sorcs in pvp go never go full lightning or madness? All of them are hybrid and even then the their dps is no where near the other dps classes. Plus the parse numbers for operations show that operatives and sorc are the lowest in terms of dps. With sniper and marauders at the top.

Edited by lokdron
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Well going by the class feedback topic in the sorc section there is a DPS problem many of the pvpers say that sorc has a dps problem why do you think none of the dps sorcs in pvp go never go full lightning or madness? All of them are hybrid and even then the their dps is no where near the other dps classes. Plus the parse numbers for operations show that operatives and sorc are the lowest in terms of dps. With sniper and marauders at the top.

 

 

This is where you need to consider the incredible AoE of the class. I won't speak for operative, I'm not familar enough with the class, altough I have a suspicion on why.

 

Pretty much, you can't give them the same single target damage as a marauder, since why the heck would people play marauders then? There is a class with awesome AoE potential and same damage amd even better its ranged!

 

I'll agree top tier ability need some loving, but if they give loving and we are able to keep the AoE, we go back to wrath powered chain lightning, and dps class that can insta heal nearly like an healer-spec.

 

Its not as easy a fix as you might think. I play a lot of classes and sorc is currently very good at distributing damage over a group of 3+. Nobody will outdps you then, even derp smash/sweep mara/sent. They'll blow their one big aoe, and you'll be in the back thinking "yah I can get up to 3, one being on no cd lol"

 

So yes, on a dummy parse you come up shorthanded (my mara have noticeably more single target dps than my sorc, at similar gear. Mara before getting any kind of end-game gear did 1150 dps, sorc around 1000.

 

But passed a PvP perspective of "class as "-" survivability, and "-" burst therefore "++" damage is very simplist, and will screw many pve fights.

 

What could however prevent that is if you'd manage to say, give an expertise or basic PvP bonus to the class. (take 5% less from players base, ex) no idea if its possible tough.

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This is where you need to consider the incredible AoE of the class. I won't speak for operative, I'm not familar enough with the class, altough I have a suspicion on why.

 

Pretty much, you can't give them the same single target damage as a marauder, since why the heck would people play marauders then? There is a class with awesome AoE potential and same damage amd even better its ranged!

 

I'll agree top tier ability need some loving, but if they give loving and we are able to keep the AoE, we go back to wrath powered chain lightning, and dps class that can insta heal nearly like an healer-spec.

 

Its not as easy a fix as you might think. I play a lot of classes and sorc is currently very good at distributing damage over a group of 3+. Nobody will outdps you then, even derp smash/sweep mara/sent. They'll blow their one big aoe, and you'll be in the back thinking "yah I can get up to 3, one being on no cd lol"

 

So yes, on a dummy parse you come up shorthanded (my mara have noticeably more single target dps than my sorc, at similar gear. Mara before getting any kind of end-game gear did 1150 dps, sorc around 1000.

 

But passed a PvP perspective of "class as "-" survivability, and "-" burst therefore "++" damage is very simplist, and will screw many pve fights.

 

What could however prevent that is if you'd manage to say, give an expertise or basic PvP bonus to the class. (take 5% less from players base, ex) no idea if its possible tough.

 

First of all the post is completely inaccurate but there are so many problems with it I will break it down for you.

 

Burst is what matters in pvp whether it is AOE or single target. Even if sorcs had the single target burst marauders have they still would not be as good as marauders. This is actually because of several reasons. First of all Sorc damage is unreliable. All of our good damage eventually relies on casting, which every class in the game has an interrupt off global cooldown so casting is not always an option. Due to our low defenses we are required to kite melee in order to survive, however since our casts make us immobile we can not produce good damage while kiting. Marauder has excellent defenses, reliable damage, excellent burst and THE BEST GROUP PVP UTILITY IN GAME. Even if marauders were the worst class in the game, they would still be taken for predation in rated groups.

 

You see while dotting up several targets using affliction looks nice on the damage board it doesn't contribute to the kill. You seem to believe that this AOE justifies the class, but in actuality the sorc aoe abilities are only good for pointlessly spreading damage over time. Forcestorm does low damage and leaves you immobile, and affliction tab dotting hardly causes a threat. Chain lightning only hits hard off of crit in full lightning spec, and you can only get a proc for it off of casts. So that leaves deathfeild as our best aoe ability, which that move alone far from justifies a sorc DPS in rated.

 

 

Sustained AOE does not matter in ranked when high burst focus fire nets a good team kills in seconds. Sustained AOE might get you the numbers at the end of the match, but in reality you did little else other than slightly pressure the enemy team.

Edited by AdmiralParmesan
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sorcs are the squishiest class and the single target dps is laughable..

 

the state of sorc pvp is a joke.. i cant believe how far this class has fallen...

 

while im getting chain crit for 4-5k and running for my life i can barely scratch my target with whopping crits of 3k at most

 

this cant be ignored the class is unplayable in warzones without gaurd

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sorcs are the squishiest class and the single target dps is laughable..

 

the state of sorc pvp is a joke.. i cant believe how far this class has fallen...

 

while im getting chain crit for 4-5k and running for my life i can barely scratch my target with whopping crits of 3k at most

 

this cant be ignored the class is unplayable in warzones without gaurd

 

 

in fact the only class i do well against in warzones now.. are other sorcs/sages

 

 

im fairly certain if i stood in one spot a maurader could kill me in about 5 seconds tops..

 

however i can stand and let loose on one of these fks and their hp barely moves...

 

our dots are a WASTE of gcd... our big abilities such as death field, crushing darkness, chain lighting ahit like wet noodles and lightning blast isnt worth the gcd to cast it instantly...

 

to keep sorcs as squishy as they are its only rational to dramatically up their dmg output..

 

by my logic sorcs/sages should have THE HIGEST single target dmg in the game to counteract their pitiful hp and defense

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First of all the post is completely inaccurate but there are so many problems with it I will break it down for you.

 

Burst is what matters in pvp whether it is AOE or single target. Even if sorcs had the single target burst marauders have they still would not be as good as marauders. This is actually because of several reasons. First of all Sorc damage is unreliable. All of our good damage eventually relies on casting, which every class in the game has an interrupt off global cooldown so casting is not always an option. Due to our low defenses we are required to kite melee in order to survive, however since our casts make us immobile we can not produce good damage while kiting. Marauder has excellent defenses, reliable damage, excellent burst and THE BEST GROUP PVP UTILITY IN GAME. Even if marauders were the worst class in the game, they would still be taken for predation in rated groups.

 

You see while dotting up several targets using affliction looks nice on the damage board it doesn't contribute to the kill. You seem to believe that this AOE justifies the class, but in actuality the sorc aoe abilities are only good for pointlessly spreading damage over time. Forcestorm does low damage and leaves you immobile, and affliction tab dotting hardly causes a threat. Chain lightning only hits hard off of crit in full lightning spec, and you can only get a proc for it off of casts. So that leaves deathfeild as our best aoe ability, which that move alone far from justifies a sorc DPS in rated.

 

 

Sustained AOE does not matter in ranked when high burst focus fire nets a good team kills in seconds. Sustained AOE might get you the numbers at the end of the match, but in reality you did little else other than slightly pressure the enemy team.

 

In a spectacular display of pvper narrow-mindness you totally missed my point.

 

All of what you say is indeed true. If its a situation that requires bursting down someone, sorc is not there. Survivability IS laughable in PvP. But the aoe remains, and must still he considered.

 

You cannot either make it a proverbial glass cannon without making OP for PvE, or significantly lowering sustained to balance the new burst.

 

You raise a good point about lightning, it has to move too much. Its a sniper, without the defense and cover mechanic, with actually longer cast and less burst. Making more instant, making lightning a very bursty class would probably help, or give it mechanics to be able to stand its ground and cast without hugging the wall like a lost frightened kitten.

 

But you need to place it higher in the tree, or you go back to the first hybrid, which had too much sustained/burst combo.

 

And weither you like it or not, a class that can unleash powerful AoEs does need to compensate somewhere. The way they currently do it, yah its not working. Polarity shift got slightly better, but the fact you'll be dead after one cast doesnt exactly makes it awesome. Quick self heal is nice as well, but it only buys you a few seconds in fight, and i mostly use it to quickly heal up after a fight to avoid losing time seething if another node is under attack.

 

Madness and hybrid gives you mobility, and currently are the "sole" option in PvP, even if a lightning spec left alone can hurt a lot, they are pretty much never left alone.

 

But, out of warzones there are also PvE ops, and unless you want merc and snipers to start qqing they are not as good as sorc for ranged dps and being disregarded in favor of a sorc due to that, you will want it done right, or all that is going to happen is another nerf eventually, and we'll be back to where we are now.

 

I agree some group utility would be nice, recklessness effect on force lightning should be revised (nice crits, but give use something more imo. Either on FL, or make it able to cast that force storm with no channel, at the cost of both charge why not? Can also be a talent for lightning tree that makes it do that)

 

That would be a way to actually add some dps, still be AoE strong and then you are free to focus a particular target caught in the storm.

 

Some ideas, but always, if you fix pvp and screw pve, you are back to case one, maybe in a month, or a year, but the fall will be even more brutal, with even more people who have a sorc as their main rage quitting.

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In case im mistake sorcs are already fairly behind in pvp and pve as dps. Ideas to not effect the nature of pve much while making positive changes for pvp are in fact possible. Heres such an idea.

 

Take for example Force storm. Making it instant cast would be great, but wouldn't help the class much if recklessness was used doing it as you suggest. Similarly it would be too big on an increase to PVE AOE damage if you could instant cast force lightning and hard cast force lightning on the same spot in PVE. Instead you could make a separate cooldown picked up high in the lightning tree for an instant cast force storm. When the cooldown is used on force storm it will put force storm on cooldown for say 40seconds (obviously this exact number could be changed)

 

Now the specific numbers aside this would moderately boost lightning's PVE single target damage which is a boost it needs to catch up to the other dps specs. In addition it would be a good kiting tool for lightning in pvp and a decent way to maybe get a lightning storm proc while being pressured.

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My brother plays sorcerer and he melts people pretty fast, there are no shiny 6k crits but he consistently does good damage. He can crit heals for 6k tho.

He kills the target often faster then my focus sentinel because he is ranged, and my sent has trouble hitting moving targets. And lastly sorcerers have excellent utility.

Their weakness is that they are squishy and that should not change really. Sorcerers are probably the best balanced class imo.

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My brother plays sorcerer and he melts people pretty fast, there are no shiny 6k crits but he consistently does good damage. He can crit heals for 6k tho.

He kills the target often faster then my focus sentinel because he is ranged, and my sent has trouble hitting moving targets. And lastly sorcerers have excellent utility.

Their weakness is that they are squishy and that should not change really. Sorcerers are probably the best balanced class imo.

 

LMAO

 

this SENTINEL thinks sorcs are fine

 

 

trolololololol

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In case im mistake sorcs are already fairly behind in pvp and pve as dps. Ideas to not effect the nature of pve much while making positive changes for pvp are in fact possible. Heres such an idea.

 

Take for example Force storm. Making it instant cast would be great, but wouldn't help the class much if recklessness was used doing it as you suggest. Similarly it would be too big on an increase to PVE AOE damage if you could instant cast force lightning and hard cast force lightning on the same spot in PVE. Instead you could make a separate cooldown picked up high in the lightning tree for an instant cast force storm. When the cooldown is used on force storm it will put force storm on cooldown for say 40seconds (obviously this exact number could be changed)

 

Now the specific numbers aside this would moderately boost lightning's PVE single target damage which is a boost it needs to catch up to the other dps specs. In addition it would be a good kiting tool for lightning in pvp and a decent way to maybe get a lightning storm proc while being pressured.

 

As said, make it talented if need be, putting FS on cd for 40 sec though is just gimping back AoE damage.

 

You could also talent lightning barrage to be able to apply to force storm with a tier 5 talent linked to it.

 

The "link to recklessness" would just make the sorc's burst linked to its AoE, which I do believe should be considered as the class signature dps basic. Obviously, number should be ran to make sure its not OP, but I do not think a burst linked to AoE every 1,5 minutes would raise PvE DPS to an exagerated dps number. Obviously, there needs to be e mechanic to prevent catimg a force storm over it, but I don't think it should warrant a CD longer than 6-10 seconds. Remember safe lightning effusion, the force cost of an instant force storm would be very hefty on a madness-spec.

 

But it would be a way to keep group pressure around a node, ball carrier etc and not being "rooted" in to place, giving you that burst you need, not through revamping the whole numbers, but applying an attack over another.

 

Currently with my gear I do about 1,1k dps. If i had a FS over that, its a 1,8k dps burst over 6 seconds, then its unavailaible for 1,5 minutes. I don't think its too much overkill, but maybe I'm wrong. I simply find its a good way to play on the class strenght, while fixing some issues.

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My brother plays sorcerer and he melts people pretty fast, there are no shiny 6k crits but he consistently does good damage. He can crit heals for 6k tho.

He kills the target often faster then my focus sentinel because he is ranged, and my sent has trouble hitting moving targets. And lastly sorcerers have excellent utility.

Their weakness is that they are squishy and that should not change really. Sorcerers are probably the best balanced class imo.

 

A sorc kills a target faster than a focus sent? Really now? I highely doubt that and I did not roll dps to be utility I rolled dps to dps and there other classes like sniper and marauader who has better dps and utility.

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sorcs sustained dps is fine it just lacks burst IMO. When teamed with a good burst dps there dps is very effective if you're the sole dps on the team things can get a bit hairy especially against multiple healers.. Good dps sorc shouldn't be eating hits when played correctly ofc they can b e taken down really fast but thats just the nature of the class. Edited by AngusFTW
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I find it difficult to believe that the posters in this thread declaring the overall viability of DPS-Sorcs in either PVE or PVP actually play the class in either Endgame PVE or PVP.

 

First, we have an individual who seems to think sustained and diffuse damage (achieved with Aff and FS spam) that allows large total damage numbers at the end of warzones actually amounts to anything productive.

 

Furthermore, that same person (verfallen) seems to think Sorcs can “unleash powerful AoEs” and therefore its other deficiencies make sense insofar as balance is concerned.

 

This of course fails to notice that our two principle AoE abilities (DF and FS) are nowhere near the most effective or powerful of such abilities in the game and actually result in a net-decrease in overall DPS if spammed in the manner in which he described.

 

Sorry, verfallen you demonstrate a poor understanding of the basic mechanics of the class in either a PVP or PVE situation which leads me to question if you have actually played a Sorc in Endgame.

 

Next, we have a Sentinel player who dabbled with Sorcs and Mercs and seems to think we are perfectly balanced. The degree of inaccuracy and backhanded defense of his own class is so abundantly obvious as to be borderline-baiting.

 

And those of us who actually play this AC as a DPS class in Endgame see glaring problems.

 

DPS-Sorcs have been in limbo for some time.

The 1.2 Patch destroyed our PVP bonafides as a DPS class and we have always lacked in burst or mobile DPS in PVE Operations.

 

BW wants us to be pure Healers, that much is clear at this point.

 

Their mistake was in giving us an expectation to play as a DPS class.

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DPS sorc's in pvp are not all that great either bioware simply hates the sorc and operative class if they need to find a solution to a class problem they either nerf merc, operative or sorc.

 

This is hilarious. I remember between 1.0-1.2, people were crying about Sages being underpowered and Sorc's overpowered, especially Operatives as well. Snipers, well snipers just stink in pvp as it is.

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I find it difficult to believe that the posters in this thread declaring the overall viability of DPS-Sorcs in either PVE or PVP actually play the class in either Endgame PVE or PVP.

 

First, we have an individual who seems to think sustained and diffuse damage (achieved with Aff and FS spam) that allows large total damage numbers at the end of warzones actually amounts to anything productive.

 

Furthermore, that same person (verfallen) seems to think Sorcs can “unleash powerful AoEs” and therefore its other deficiencies make sense insofar as balance is concerned.

 

This of course fails to notice that our two principle AoE abilities (DF and FS) are nowhere near the most effective or powerful of such abilities in the game and actually result in a net-decrease in overall DPS if spammed in the manner in which he described.

 

Sorry, verfallen you demonstrate a poor understanding of the basic mechanics of the class in either a PVP or PVE situation which leads me to question if you have actually played a Sorc in Endgame.

 

Next, we have a Sentinel player who dabbled with Sorcs and Mercs and seems to think we are perfectly balanced. The degree of inaccuracy and backhanded defense of his own class is so abundantly obvious as to be borderline-baiting.

 

And those of us who actually play this AC as a DPS class in Endgame see glaring problems.

 

DPS-Sorcs have been in limbo for some time.

The 1.2 Patch destroyed our PVP bonafides as a DPS class and we have always lacked in burst or mobile DPS in PVE Operations.

 

BW wants us to be pure Healers, that much is clear at this point.

 

Their mistake was in giving us an expectation to play as a DPS class.

 

You misunderstand my meaning.

 

In current PvP games, AoE sustained is not as important as burst, but the class' ability at it needs to still be considered. You can't give eveyone the same burst and have a class also being able to pull it AoE wise. Thats currently one of the issue with smasher warriors and knights.

 

DF still hits rather hard for instant AoE, and so does CL, altough it needs a proc to go off.

 

My suggestion of linking burst to it is mainly to fix the "inefficiency" damage wise of being stuck 6 seconds channeling FS.

 

I do play sorc endgame, and I do see the same issues as you do. But I also know wrath powered CL are just going to make things imba on the other side. Raising the burst too high with the same sustained might also make the class too powerful versus other rdps in a raid. I got most other class, and the harsher CD or ressource cost makes their AoE potential inferior to sorcs. Again, its currently not compensating, but must be considered in the needed future changes.

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There are many ways to make madness sorc more viable... they could create procs that increase the damage on Shock via stacks for example; have these go off of periodic damage crits - so each time Affliction or Creeping Terror crit, you get +5 or +10% Shock damage per stack, up to 5 stacks; to affect both the main Shock and the secondary Shock if it procs.

 

Or they could flat out increase the damage on a few abilities. Honestly, I'd increase the damage on both DoTs by as much as 50%. People cleanse pyro dots don't they? Why is no one concerned with cleansing sorc dots? Because they are not that scary. Increase the damage by 35-50% and you'll bring them closer to the dots other classes have.

 

And along with dots, increase the damage on DF by 25%. Why? Why not? So it will hit for 6-6.5k and create some burst for what should be the burstiest class in the game, being also the squishiest. There is no way to bring down the cd from 15 seconds and it only hits 3 targets. And even if you increased the damage by 25% it would still hit for less than Smash, on 2 less targets. I don't see why this could not be done and the sorcs given some burst.

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