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The Contraband Slot Machine

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OddballEasyEight's Avatar


OddballEasyEight
01.24.2015 , 08:45 AM | #1301
Quote: Originally Posted by Neglience View Post
If it is so easy to do, why isn't everyone doing it ? Well, i know that clicking the button is easy, but still players keep complaining to be gauged by other players.
I'm doing it as we speak.
Who's to say others aren't doing it too?

Difference is, I'm not gouging players on the GTN, I'm using the mats for crafting.

And THEN gouging people (J/K, I'm fairly reasonable in my pricing. I have a profit margin and I stick to that to the great annoyance of some other crafters, judging from the number of "OMG WHY ARE YOU UNDERCUTTING BY SO MUCH!!!" type in-game emails I've gotten)
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EnkiduNineEight's Avatar


EnkiduNineEight
01.24.2015 , 08:46 AM | #1302
If the slots remain where they are I am going to be disappointed myself. I was one of the frequent voices that the slots needed to be adjusted. Before finding the threads here (I tend to hide from the various general forums but would frequent the suggestions forums as I have found my enjoyment of a game suffers when I delve into the forums) I was dutifully recording my results and submitting them as a bug and appending said bug with each new stack of tokens.

I controlled my slots use, I only have 6.5 stacks of Jawa Junk from my slots play, (and increased my Cartel Market Certs by two stacks and some) but it did feel like I was getting something for nothing. The odds eally were off. From the beginning I knew that, if I were more the self absorbed capitalist sort I should sit here and burn through as much in game currency as I have (and I have just over 100mil across my 20 characters as I've been playing since release and before) and take advantage of it but I'm just not that sort of person. I grabbed enough, I hope, to continue to outfit my up and coming alts and left it at that.

If they leave them (winning odds) where they are, they are still by an order of magnitude off just in the other direction.

I'm most especially annoyed that they took my .001 suggestion for rate of return for a 'Special' jackput and turned it into .001% because someone doesn't understand math.

There is no way a reskinned walker mount that's 90% movement (level 10 speeder) should be 100 times harder to achieve than the Kingpin Rancor.

I wanted a 'credit sink' but that's patently ridiculous. If anything, the odds of getting one should be significantly better than the Kingpin Rancor and it should be bound to legacy so it can't be sold, but you could move it to the character you wanted it on. This would convince quite a few more people to yank the level more frequently, making this an effective credit sink, because they would have an actual chance to get a mount from it they could send to anyone in their legacy. Just as they could in the Nightlife Event with the Vectron 'trash' jackpot.

We've been provided good information from honest gathering/crafters who can tell you what the average price to gather Grade 11 missions. Doonium tops the list @ $6,000 credits per Doonium harvested. So the most expensive is also the material used in multiple crafting skills.

It is very simply to balance your expected results per slot pull so that your sunk cost of using the machine equals an amount that is a multiple of the cost to obtain materials that you will receive from play. If they want you to get 1 jawa junk per stack of tokens played, then the sunk cost of the play should equal (IMO) @ 12,000 credits. You pay a price premium for the speed and convenience.

The market would bear this increase of materials available and make Grade 11 materials more accessible was was noted as a desire by the team.

Best/cheapest way to achieve them would be gathering.
Fastest way to get them would be slots but they would be at least twice the cost per material.
Excess material gets marketed on the GTN lowering costs but those people who can list for the cheapest are still the trade skillers.

I am very disappointed with the .001% drop rate for the speeder. That is ridiculously punitive and, as evidenced by many comments, not nearly enough of an inducement to play the slots which are now seen as a complete waste of time and a punitive money sink.

I wanted rates of return lowered. I just wish the dev who made the changes actually understood math OR more likely, they understand math but just made a mistake in haste to get something fixed. It does a lot, for a community and in your interpersonal relationships, to admit when you made a mistake and attempt to make it right. I think the vast majority of all people who have commented on this issue would be significantly mollified and actually switch their opinion to one of being satisfied and happy with the game and the slots even if they were never returned to close to their prior 1.0 version if the community Team was more forthcoming and we knew there was a plan of action to make things better than present, but no where near as destructive as they were prior.

I know I _personally_ would be happy if my cost per Jawa Junk ranged up to 18,000 credits 'lost' on the machine per dropped Junk.

I think the rate for the certificates could be raised but find 2% was far too generous, .9% or 1% (averaging 1 per stack the majority of the time) might be more fair and considering most of them will be hoarded not too big an influx in the economy. If they are concerned, since certs would be easier to get and more plentiful for everyone, just make all cert purchasable items bind on pickup and allow 'bound' decorations (EG you have the item that unlocks the decoration into your collection in your possession, you have not actually added it to your decoration collection) to be donated to your guild.

This removes the potential currency conversion of cartel market certificates, so their 'cost' per drop would work with the cost associated for Jawa Junk.

This effectively moves currency from the system (money sinks are good) but also provides a better rate of return for the player so that the rewards portion of their brain is triggered more often, increasing their pleasure from using the slots, and thus encouraging them to participate in a specifically designed money sink.
5 Green Mats per stack of tokens
3 Blues per stack of tokens.
1 Purple per stack of tokens.
Similar drop rates for reputation items.
More 'free spins'
.5% rate to .1% rate for the Speeder (.001 to .005) which is 'bound to legacy' and is an adaptive speeder. Much closer to the Vectron on the high return end than the Rancor.
Token cost set so that after your expected odds, the total 'cost' to you per stack (eg lost currency- original cost - sellbacks of rep items unused) is equal to say 15,000-20,000 credits.

Token cost to _increase_ in the future when you release Grade 13 or whatever your next planned materials grade is so that the cost per stack of tokens and your expected returns are in line with the increased costs for gathering the same materials so that a constant ratio exists making it always cheapest to gather materials via missions.

You're not going to make the hardcore 'Make slots = 1.0 Slots because EVERYONE ELSE IS GREEDY BUT I AM NOT!' crowd happy. Their numbers are small, don't worry about it. They'll still play they'll just whine about it.

You're not going to make the 'MMO's need to be harder than my real job!' crowd happy either. It will be too easy per their experience. They'll likely stick around to and complain.

Folks in-between the extremes, no matter where their starting point, would likely come to accept the middle ground approach and appreciate having a fun toy that tickles their pleasure receptors with an increased frequency of 'useful' return from the slots even though they will know it is _costing_ them credits. You'll have likely repaired your relationship with the very vocal (and by extension, some of your most hardcore fans/boosters) community and done a "good thing" for the game as a whole.

Tolunart's Avatar


Tolunart
01.24.2015 , 08:54 AM | #1303
Quote: Originally Posted by Neglience View Post
But thats the point behind your argument. Things should not be rare or hard to get, BW should make them easy to get. Thats as easy as it can go.
Because if it's not black, then it must be white. There are never more than two choices.

Menolley's Avatar


Menolley
01.24.2015 , 09:01 AM | #1304
Draqksco I disagree with your statement:

Quote:
The only non-lazy mat gatherers out there are the one doing HM FPs and Ops for Exonium, and those farming nodes. Every other method of obtaining mats only requires virtual couch potato effort of clicking a UI.
It's an unfair generalization. Are you saying that being disabled and only having one good hand to play with makes me lazy since I am unable to do FPs and Ops for mats?

Edited to add:

I am not the only disabled player by a long shot either. Check out "Able Gamers Foundation"

Draqsko's Avatar


Draqsko
01.24.2015 , 09:09 AM | #1305
Quote: Originally Posted by EnkiduNineEight View Post
If the slots remain where they are I am going to be disappointed myself. I was one of the frequent voices that the slots needed to be adjusted. Before finding the threads here (I tend to hide from the various general forums but would frequent the suggestions forums as I have found my enjoyment of a game suffers when I delve into the forums) I was dutifully recording my results and submitting them as a bug and appending said bug with each new stack of tokens.
*snip*
It was alot more than just your input, so do not blame yourself for this.

With that said, this entire post is exactly the point I've been driving at. THERE IS A POINT OF BALANCE with the slot machine and crew skills that DOES NOT involve effectively eliminating either one, and we should seek that point instead of seeking either extreme. You can make them competitive against each other and let the player decide which method they want to use. One is faster but costs alot more, the other is slower but is much cheaper.

Draqsko's Avatar


Draqsko
01.24.2015 , 09:14 AM | #1306
Quote: Originally Posted by Menolley View Post
Draqksco I disagree with your statement:



It's an unfair generalization. Are you saying that being disabled and only having one good hand to play with makes me lazy since I am unable to do FPs and Ops for mats?

Edited to add:

I am not the only disabled player by a long shot either. Check out "Able Gamers Foundation"
Maybe you need a better guild. I've had guildies who are disabled and had no issue taking them through operations or flashpoints, if it means I have to work twice as hard so they can experience that so be it. We both have fun doing it. Isn't that the point of an online game, to have fun with a community of players, not at the expense of other players?

Being disabled never means you shouldn't try.

eartharioch's Avatar


eartharioch
01.24.2015 , 09:20 AM | #1307
Quote: Originally Posted by Draqsko View Post
Their other argument was that 186 gear was not entry level PVE gear for Ops. That 178 was. Guess they never ran ops cause they are too busy clicking their crew skill boxes to realize the recommend gear level for level 60 Ops is this:

Story mode Ravagers: 186
Hard mode Ravagers: 192
Story mode Temple: 186
Hard mode Temple: 198

Yep sounds to me like 186 is entry level gear for endgame content.
It sounds like *you* don't get what *they* said. The end game starts with HM FPs, which (per Group Finder) use 178 gear. If you don't want to run HM FPs, you can do other things and get the 186 gear you need for the SM OPs. You don't *have* to buy it off the GTN, the Basic Comm and Level 55 NiM vendors will sell you 186 gear if you [can] earn their coin.
Q: What did the five fingers say to the face?
A: It's a SLAP!
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Max_Killjoy's Avatar


Max_Killjoy
01.24.2015 , 09:28 AM | #1308
Quote: Originally Posted by Draqsko View Post
Maybe you need a better guild. I've had guildies who are disabled and had no issue taking them through operations or flashpoints, if it means I have to work twice as hard so they can experience that so be it. We both have fun doing it. Isn't that the point of an online game, to have fun with a community of players, not at the expense of other players?

Being disabled never means you shouldn't try.
The point of a game is to have fun.

Some people don't really give a damn about the "community" part of it, they'd rather just play in peace, live and let live, and leave others alone in turn.

EnkiduNineEight's Avatar


EnkiduNineEight
01.24.2015 , 09:31 AM | #1309
As an addendum to my immediate prior post:

I think they should consider adding some additional drops to the machines, these could be as rare as or even slightly rarer than the rancor. (.0009 OR .09% with the feeling lucky buff for the Rancor). what these would be would be 'Jackpot Crates' which are similar to the 'grand acquisition' packs that have been sold. Where-in the player who hits this jackpot is given a full set of armor, or perhaps a rare speeder, crystal, etc from the pack the machine represents.

These don't even need to be bound because their infrequency would be high enough (again, I suggest slightly harder to get than the Rancor) that they would not be a significant addition to the GTN or a players wealth if sold.

Looking at the Contraband Packs I would conceivably (So, lets say at odds that are an order of magnitude greater than the Rancor, so instead of .09% use .009%) recommend that they have the potential to drop any of the following:
Red Blade Set
Thana Vesh Set
Restored Triumverate Set
Recovered Hero Set
Each of the three relaxed Sets. (Jumpsuit, Uniform and Vestments)
White-Black Sabre crystals (individually not as a set)
The Cartel Skiffs (Individually)
The Aratech Speeders (individually)
Music Therapy Probe
Portable Relaxation Unit
Revan Statue
Various pets, emotes, moods (perhaps this reward comes with several in the jackpot crate)
Weapons (individual weapon from all the weapons in this pack, can leave some omitted of course)

What this does is gives players a chance to get a really neat jackpot (beyond a reskinned vehicle) with significantly difficult odds that encourages them to play the slots. I know that I would certainly take to converting a portion of my credits, every time I earn more, and use them to feed aslot machine because I may be able to fill out my collections.

Since a number of items are still omitted,there is still a reason to buy the packs when you put them on sale, the slot machine would not eliminate this need/market for your real world currency Catel Market packs. But a broad enough/rare enough selection is chosen that you pique the players need/greed to have the results.

Since there is also a suitably large number of potential rewards, it gives the slot machine a significant life span. More as you release each generation of Slot Machine to make up for another prior (never the current) shipment from the Cartel Market.

So not only does this provide an enticing currency sink, tweak the reward/pleasure centers of your players but it does one more thing.

It really encourages more player interaction in areas where slot machines can be found.

The community is encouraged to make their strongholds/guild halls public if they have these devices. This is a benefit then to players who do not yet have them. The eventual variety of the machines makes for new and interesting social hubs for players. The number of special Jackpot Crates and their widely varying contents encourage player interaction and chatter as they hit their jackpots and open the crates.

This gives more ipetus for players to purchase and decorate their Strongholds. Quite frankly my entire purpose formy strong holds was to maximize out the bonus for conquest points and I didn't care at all how I decorated. I just filled hooks until I had the bonus. I would frankly beencouraged by this syste to at least make ONE ofmy strongholds look nice and I would dedicate space within it to my 'casino' and it would be made open to the public.. all thngs I do not do presently because there is no point to it for me (and many others).

The slot machines can be an excellent method for you to really increase the fun of the game, make Grade 11 (and future grades) more accessible to players, increase the rate at which currency is 'flushed' from the system higher allowing perhaps for some other 'less fun' money sinks to be scaled back further and overall increasing the 'fun to play' aspect of the game. You increase social hub activity, and you make those social hubs PLAYER driven.

So, for your consideration....

Draqsko's Avatar


Draqsko
01.24.2015 , 09:31 AM | #1310
Quote: Originally Posted by eartharioch View Post
It sounds like *you* don't get what *they* said. The end game starts with HM FPs, which (per Group Finder) use 178 gear. If you don't want to run HM FPs, you can do other things and get the 186 gear you need for the SM OPs. You don't *have* to buy it off the GTN, the Basic Comm and Level 55 NiM vendors will sell you 186 gear if you [can] earn their coin.
Didn't know you had to do FPs to unlock Ops.. And truthfully, with this release, the HM FPs took better gear than the Ops did with the bugged damage buff silvers got. At least in Ops you only had to deal with champions and golds.

But even if your supposition was true, and that is what "they" meant, the fact is they are out of touch with what the rest of the community considers endgame content. Here's a hint, it's not flashpoints, it's operations. If BW dropped this expansion with 12 flashpoints and no operations, the forums would explode with complaints about lack of endgame.