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[Class Rep] Three Questions Regarding Our Wonderful Class

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes > Vanguard / Powertech
[Class Rep] Three Questions Regarding Our Wonderful Class

WillLongstick's Avatar


WillLongstick
03.03.2014 , 11:24 AM | #121
Quote: Originally Posted by Kooziejr View Post
Yes this question.

And:

PT tanks in PvP lack the burst defensives of Assassins (shroud) and Juggs (reflect). Further, PT tanks have a distinct lack of long CC compared to juggs (intimidating road - 6 sec mez), and sins (whirlwhind - 8 second cc). The classes all have 2 hard stuns but pts have no Mez/CC. To summarise, We neither have a burst defensive cooldown to stop large amounts of incoming damage or a CC/Mez that the other tank classes do and makes them very powerful in PvP. We understand that Powertech tanks are in a good place right now in PvE so a new defensive cooldown is probably out of the question for reasons of game mechanics. But a 6 - 8 second CC will have no bearing on PvE and will increase PT tank viability in PvP (especially Arenas). Both sins and juggs pick up stun talents in their tank tree...would there be any plans to give PTs a CC talent in their tanking tree in the future?
This is a PVP tank question I can get behind. Wording should be cleaned up so it doesn't come across as another VG "perception problem" question, but this is the correct direction to keep PVE Shield Tech unchanged.

Couple things: I primarily playing a PT tank in endgame PVE content, I'd rather lose Jet Charge than lose Hydraulic Overrides. That's our mechanic cheeser over Shroud and Saber Reflect. Get off the gap-closer for everyone idea.

I understand why people want Shoulder Cannon to be more consistent damage (at least for PVE). The sacrifices though aren't just PVP burst, this change to Shoulder Cannon would mess with the overall PVE tank balance (which is in a spectacular place right now). Right now, you can use 4 Shoulder Cannon missiles every 1:50 to heal for a total of 20% max health. 78s put a PT tank at ~44k health, so 0.2*44 = 8.8k healing. Divide by 110 seconds and we currently have Shoulder Cannon healing an average of 80 HPS. Putting Shoulder Cannon on a 10 second CD would up a PTs healing to 220 HPS. That's an imbalance that would need to be corrected in a way we won't like.

Think about removing the RNG from Pyro. If that happens then Pyro is a 4 button rotation that now requires no thought or reaction to procs. If you want Pyro to play like a Speak & Spell, sure keep asking for RNG to be removed.

The threat on PT grapple is annoyingly low as a tank (don't even bother using it for threat, Jet Charge has higher threat). Remember this is due to DPS having the grapple, and DPS not necessarily wanting 9k threat immediately when pulling something for mechanical reasons (NIM Kephess bombers). I do wish this would be addressed either by a Shield Tech talent or a modification from Ion Gas Cylinder.

Shield Tech talents require you to shield an attack. Perhaps it's not an issue of the tree being wrong, but your gear being wrong (I run 18% defense chance with full 78s and stim). I ran the numbers last summer, assuming equal post-mitigation damage, your gearing can make you take between 2850 and 3150 DTPS from melee/ranged attacks. Compare that spread to the 2400 to 3600 DTPS spread you take from force/tech attacks depending on how you gear. I think I've seen KeyboardNinja's numbers for PTs even turn away from defense now.

Just in general, it doesn't matter if you only PVE or only PVP and don't care about the other. Fact is, developers will not break the balance in one area just so you can be happy in the other.
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<Intrepid>

Kaos_KidSWTOR's Avatar


Kaos_KidSWTOR
03.03.2014 , 11:28 AM | #122
Quote: Originally Posted by Kooziejr View Post
1) You don't know how to play a PT
2) Re roll a mara/jug

You are clearly a PvE players and that is fine...I can tell you play absolutely zero PvP and if you do you are a terribad. Jet charge is not as good as hydraulics in PvP...in fact it would completely fk you over standing on Melee dps...Son...you don't understand the class MECHANIC. IT IS NOT A 4M class----THEREFORE THERE CANNOT BE A 4M gap closer! YOU NEED TO RE ROLL A MARAUDER OR JUGGERNAUT IF U WANT A GAP CLOSER - THEY ARE 4M classes! Do you understand this?

In PvE the problem IS NOT the gap closer....People get less DPS on dummies regardless (THey start 4m from the dummy)!. YOU NEED THE SUSTAINED DPS FIXED....IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH GAP CLOSING..YOU ARE A BAD PLAYER IF U THINK PTS NEED A GAP CLOSER OR THAT THIS WILL SOMEHOW INCREASE THEIR DPS TO COMPETITIVE LEVELS....

You can all argue tooth and nail for the next 10 years that PTs need a gap closer. IT WILL NEVER HAPPEN. THAT IS NOT THE CLASS MECHANIC. Please stop suggesting this....It WILL NEVER HAPPEN. Saying "we need a gap closer" will not solve this problem...it makes you look stupid on the forums to the people who actually used them more than 2 weeks because people have said that every patch since 1.1.....When 2.7 rolls around there will be NO GAP CLOSER JET CHARGE ADDED FOR DPS. So, either RE ROLL or L2P PT properly. Read past threads to learn HOW TO PLAY PT properly. You clearly DO NOT UNDERSTAND and it is too hard for you if you think you need a gap closer. GO PLAY ANNIHILATION MARAUDER they have a gap closer on a Very low cooldown...you will enjoy that.

Rant over.

Scenario for you based on your suggestion: Sniper Vs PT in a node fight 1 v 1 from 35m start away from eachother assuming no hydraulic override and jet charge instead.

Sniper: Legshot @ 35 Meters
Sniper: Explosive Probe @ 35 Meters
Sniper: Ambush @ 35 Meters
Sniper: Followthrough

PT - Uses first attack (YOU CANNOT CHARGE A SNIPER!) Don't forget legshot coming again in 8 seconds when hes 25M away again after a roll (Charge and Grapple don't work on sniper!)
You lose 80% to 0%

WHAT? you used your CC breaker on legshot?

Sniper: Flashbang
Sniper: Explosive Probe
Sniper: Ambush
Sniper: Followthrough
Sniper: roll away
Sniper: Leg shot
Sniper: Series of Shots followthrough
Sniper: Takedown

So as you can see....with your change in mechanics are you a completely useless class against any decent sniper and cannot kite Melee at all.....which is terrible because melee will kill you quicker from 4m than you can kill them...

I know you won't understand this. I have tried explaining the whole "jet charge" thing so many times but people don't get the class. They think they need to be on top of everyone and everything and if they get knocked back to 16-17 metres in a raid that they need to "CHARGE BACK" LOL L2P. Learn to use explosive dart. It does more damage than force leap and by the time the GCD you are back within 10m anyways. The only time when PT gap closer would be nice is at 25-30M away..but hey L2P the class and you won't be that far away. Over and out. Rant now officially over. One more thing. L2P

I have a level 32 Powertech Tank, and a level 55 Vanguard Tank, i almost exclusively play my Vanguard tank in PvP, and sweep house with things, rarely die, though dont kill things too often but am a general nuisance because of my damage reducers and Taunts. I also play a level 43 Guardian in Vigilance, and once played a 55 Carnage Marauder till i got really bored with it and deleted it for a Sorc, i also have a level 21 Juggernaut in Vengance, I also Main a 55 Operative in Concealment and regularly PvP with it. So I know my PvP and PvE. Though i will say i am on the Harbinger server so PvP isnt my main focus.

Also, you forget something, you can Grapple the sniper while he is Rolling... So, Argument Invalid. Just grapple the sniper, Cryo him, and run away. I dont face snipers as my VG tank because i know i havent the tools yet to take one on yet. I rarely ever think of Hydraulic Overrides/Hold The Line because as a Merc in leveling, and as my Vanguard during leveling, i never had them! I didnt level as Tactics or Arsenal, i leveled as Tank, and Healer for my Merc. So, as a result im not conditioned to use them! I typically just use Kolto Overload or Grapple them to me if i can and beat the snot out of them.

Edit: If you arent even open to the suggestion you cant even see the results, Maybe if you were more open minded to the idea, it could work! But since your so closed minded, you cant see what could work. If it doesnt work, then you can always just go back to Square one, and re look the ideas.

Brunner_Venda's Avatar


Brunner_Venda
03.03.2014 , 11:29 AM | #123
Quote: Originally Posted by TACeMossie View Post
This was almost a double post (deliberately) but then scythe came to the rescue!

This second post is gonna be a questions-based post and as such will be relevant to this thread



PvE BASED - PYROTECH SPEC

Another thing Patch 2.6 did, was remove the PvE Hybrid. Now we know you dont like hybrids, but the sad thing is that aside from 1-2 obscenely good Vanguards/Powertechs (e.g. C-tor), Powertechs needed the AP/Pyro hybrid to compete in PvE situations - mainly because of the great resource management, decent sustained damage, and the AoE damage to really help in specific situations. But with 2.6, the hybrid was cut, and we had to go back to full trees, where problems really started to show. In Pyrotechs case, these problems were most obvious in the high RNG Dependencies on its resource management, as well as how a necessary talent (Rapid Venting) gave a stat that would hurt its resource regeneration system (particle proc accelerator's 6 second ICD gets ruined by the 2% alacrity on a stable internet connection). With the 2.7 changes being planned, we can see that RNG is being removed from the aresenal spec on mercs, as well as from all specs of Sorcs - but the real thing seen there is that ICDs are being modified to allow alacrity without it hurting the proc rate (see - 8 second ICD on Barrage). Are there any plans in the future for reducing the RNG behind the Pyrotech Powertechs proc system and getting rid of alacrity problems in the spec?

WILDCARD QUESTION - ADVANCED POWERTECH SPEC

This spec is probably one of the specs that really needs to be looked at. Until patch 2.6 came out, the spec wasn't a spec - it was pieces of a hybrid spec that was half shield spec in PvP and half pyro in PvE. This is confounded by it literally being the lowest parsing dps spec in the game, and the entirety of its viability in the new dread ops come from adds being a little too easy to bunch up, while its PvP Viability is tied entirely to having explosive fuel up, and the slow on Prototype Flamethrower. Are there any plans to really look into improving Advanced Powertech so it no longer becomes second rate to the other specs?

Now if someone wants to take those 3 questions and shorten them a bit so the devs dont have enough to make a stupid answer for, then we'd have something that looks like what we need.
I agree with these two questions, but the tank question should revolve around the defense chance/shield chance ability proc issues.

WillLongstick's Avatar


WillLongstick
03.03.2014 , 11:50 AM | #124
Quote: Originally Posted by Brunner_Venda View Post
I agree with these two questions, but the tank question should revolve around the defense chance/shield chance ability proc issues.
From KeyboardNinja's gearing thread:

HM DF Build: {2800,{defense->707,shield->1233,absorb->861}}
HM Average: {2800,{defense->517,shield->1333,absorb->950}}
HM DP Build: {2800,{defense->452,shield->1367,absorb->981}}

That's 17.2% defense for HM DP and 20.1% defense for HM DF. (18% defense chance averaging between the ops)
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Ottoattack's Avatar


Ottoattack
03.03.2014 , 12:03 PM | #125
Quote: Originally Posted by Kaos_KidSWTOR View Post
I have a level 32 Powertech Tank, and a level 55 Vanguard Tank, i almost exclusively play my Vanguard tank in PvP, and sweep house with things, rarely die, though dont kill things too often but am a general nuisance because of my damage reducers and Taunts. I also play a level 43 Guardian in Vigilance, and once played a 55 Carnage Marauder till i got really bored with it and deleted it for a Sorc, i also have a level 21 Juggernaut in Vengance, I also Main a 55 Operative in Concealment and regularly PvP with it. So I know my PvP and PvE. Though i will say i am on the Harbinger server so PvP isnt my main focus.

Also, you forget something, you can Grapple the sniper while he is Rolling... So, Argument Invalid. Just grapple the sniper, Cryo him, and run away. I dont face snipers as my VG tank because i know i havent the tools yet to take one on yet. I rarely ever think of Hydraulic Overrides/Hold The Line because as a Merc in leveling, and as my Vanguard during leveling, i never had them! I didnt level as Tactics or Arsenal, i leveled as Tank, and Healer for my Merc. So, as a result im not conditioned to use them! I typically just use Kolto Overload or Grapple them to me if i can and beat the snot out of them.

Edit: If you arent even open to the suggestion you cant even see the results, Maybe if you were more open minded to the idea, it could work! But since your so closed minded, you cant see what could work. If it doesnt work, then you can always just go back to Square one, and re look the ideas.
I am not sure what this rambling is about. You say you play tank, which has both HO and JC. You do not mention anything regarding dps, which JC request that a lot some posters have is coming from. Then you say we need to be "open minded." I assume that you want JC base line for PTs. No, and here is why.

Gyronamics's Avatar


Gyronamics
03.03.2014 , 12:16 PM | #126
Quote: Originally Posted by WillLongstick View Post
Issue 1: Vanguard or Commando Hammer Shot hits a target with 7 separate attacks. Powertech Rapid Shots hits a target with 5 separate attacks and Merc Rapid Shots hits a target with 10 separate attacks. I don't want to break out the math, but this gives Powertech's easily the lowest chance of any Pyro class to trigger CGC, and it gives PT tanks about a 10% lower chance to trigger IGC (lowering Heat Blast's CD) than Vanguard tanks. I would like to ask if they could set the cylinders up in a way that results in all of the final probabilities coming out the same.
While you're not breaking out the math remember that mercenaries have double hits on most ability attacks due to offhand e.g. railshot hits twice

That's relevant because commandos have just the one hit on railshot, power shot, only 3 hits on unload vs 6. In best rotation you don't use default attack at all or extremely rarely.

So in best damage rotations default attack is effectively irrelevant and mercenaries are getting the best deal for chances on CGC procs.
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Mathemagica's Avatar


Mathemagica
03.03.2014 , 12:28 PM | #127
Quote: Originally Posted by WillLongstick View Post
From KeyboardNinja's gearing thread:

HM DF Build: {2800,{defense->707,shield->1233,absorb->861}}
HM Average: {2800,{defense->517,shield->1333,absorb->950}}
HM DP Build: {2800,{defense->452,shield->1367,absorb->981}}

That's 17.2% defense for HM DP and 20.1% defense for HM DF. (18% defense chance averaging between the ops)
Personally, I think the numbers you give are quite a lot. In practice, this reduces the expected amount of shielded attacks by almost 1/5. I didn't bother to do a precise calculation now, but a rough estimate makes me guess that this influences the average cooldown of Heat Blast by about a second.
If you go over the length of a Boss fight or the combat time during a Warzone/Arena this starts making a difference (especially the additional Absorption you would gain from Heat Blast).

Edit: Nevermind, I found your original post now. I was in a hurry when I wrote this. But I still don't like the idea that defense can actually hurt the mechanics of a tanking tree.

I spent some time thinking about the AoE-mez people are discussing and here's what I think.
This is probably the first time I ever hear someone complain about the lack of cc in SWTORs PvP. It is unlikely that we get another cc option without losing something which would probably be Carbonize.
While I haven't done much PvP since about 2.3 (read: No Arena-experience), I still remember that I was glad to have an AoE-stun and not an AoE-mez on frequent occasions. Especially since we actually have access to an AoE-mez thanks to grenades. While grenades can't be used as frequently as other classes AoE-abilities, I would be somewhat surprised if you would need an AoE-mez almost every time it is available.

In short: With the nerfs to CCs in the past and in 2.7, I doubt that we will get an additional CC-ability without losing one and we have a very good setup right now. An AoE-stun and an AoE-mez seems better to me than two AoE-mezzes, because flexibility is very useful in PvP.

Kaos_KidSWTOR's Avatar


Kaos_KidSWTOR
03.03.2014 , 12:31 PM | #128
Quote: Originally Posted by Ottoattack View Post
I am not sure what this rambling is about. You say you play tank, which has both HO and JC. You do not mention anything regarding dps, which JC request that a lot some posters have is coming from. Then you say we need to be "open minded." I assume that you want JC base line for PTs. No, and here is why.
Thing is, I play Tank PT and VG because of the leap, That and it's decent fun. I would play Pyro over tank if it had a leap.

ScytheEleven's Avatar


ScytheEleven
03.03.2014 , 12:57 PM | #129
Quote: Originally Posted by Kaos_KidSWTOR View Post
I have a level 32 Powertech Tank, and a level 55 Vanguard Tank, i almost exclusively play my Vanguard tank in PvP, and sweep house with things, rarely die, though dont kill things too often but am a general nuisance because of my damage reducers and Taunts. I also play a level 43 Guardian in Vigilance, and once played a 55 Carnage Marauder till i got really bored with it and deleted it for a Sorc, i also have a level 21 Juggernaut in Vengance, I also Main a 55 Operative in Concealment and regularly PvP with it. So I know my PvP and PvE. Though i will say i am on the Harbinger server so PvP isnt my main focus.

Also, you forget something, you can Grapple the sniper while he is Rolling... So, Argument Invalid. Just grapple the sniper, Cryo him, and run away. I dont face snipers as my VG tank because i know i havent the tools yet to take one on yet. I rarely ever think of Hydraulic Overrides/Hold The Line because as a Merc in leveling, and as my Vanguard during leveling, i never had them! I didnt level as Tactics or Arsenal, i leveled as Tank, and Healer for my Merc. So, as a result im not conditioned to use them! I typically just use Kolto Overload or Grapple them to me if i can and beat the snot out of them.

Edit: If you arent even open to the suggestion you cant even see the results, Maybe if you were more open minded to the idea, it could work! But since your so closed minded, you cant see what could work. If it doesnt work, then you can always just go back to Square one, and re look the ideas.
I am 99.99% certain you cannot pull a Sniper/Slinger while they are rolling. They are immune to all damage/physics while rolling...hence why when I'm on mine, I'll save my roll when going against a PT Pyro for when they use TD so I can resist it.
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Brunner_Venda's Avatar


Brunner_Venda
03.03.2014 , 01:12 PM | #130
Quote: Originally Posted by Kaos_KidSWTOR View Post
Thing is, I play Tank PT and VG because of the leap, That and it's decent fun. I would play Pyro over tank if it had a leap.
Pyro doesn't need a GAP closer. Instead it has a snare on sweltering heat that hampers the mobility of a target considerably. You also have six seconds of immunity to roots and slows every 30 seconds. The sweltering heat slow can be re applied pretty much constantly, making any target permanently slower than you because it doesn't affect resolve.

AP runs 20% faster than anyone else with pneumatic boots, it also has a huge slow attached to retractable blade and prototype flame thrower. It also has 9-10 seconds of HO every 30 seconds. AP is the most mobile PT spec. It doesn't need a gap closer.

Tank needs a GAP closer to jump to an enemy that's threatening a healer. That's your job as a tank, to taunt that guy and absorb 50% of his DPS off of that healer. Tank gets six seconds of HO. It doesn't have pneumatic boots, retractable blade, or sweltering heat to control enemies.

Kooziejr isn't the most polite or eloquent guy sometimes, but this is exactly what he means by 'learn to play'. Learn to use the existing tools at your disposal to close gaps as a DPS. The tools are already ridiculously good. Use them!