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Kaggath Series: Darth Sidious vs Sith Emperor


Beniboybling

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“No game of dejarik can be won without pawns...”

 

Final Round: Darth Sidious vs Sith Emperor

 

Welcome to the final instalment of the ‘Kaggath vs Series’. Over the past weeks I’ve been in pitting the power bases of iconic Star Wars characters against each other, many have fallen, and many have been rewarded with victory. But fear not, the Kaggath will return due to popular demand in the ‘Kaggath Tournament’! Stay tuned!

 

The last battle, Skere Kaan vs Naga Sadow, was a victory for Sadow, who overran Kaan’s forces with an army of illusions. But onto the final round.

 

For all those of you aren’t aware, the Kaggath is an ancient rite of the Sith, ‘one part duel, one part large-scale dejarik-match’. The two combatants have full use of their power bases, be it armies, strongholds or fleets, in order to outwit and outmanoeuvre their opponent. The Kaggath is no simply lightsaber duel, although it can come down to one, and the arena can be anywhere: a planet, a star system or the entire galaxy.

 

Before we begin, let’s just go over the ground rules again:

 

 

  • The arena: the known galaxy.
  • No outside help of any kind, the combatants cannot call upon assets outside their power base, or other prominent powers. This excludes allies of the era, i.e. Darth Vader, Thrawn, Darth Malgus. (Concerning the Dark Council, they are not excluded from Vitiate’s power base, but cannot engage in combat themselves only command others.)
  • No outside involvement, other powers will not and cannot interrupt or affect the battle, for the purpose of argument they are non-existent.
  • No surrender, fight to the death!
  • No immortality, when you’re dead, you’re dead!
  • No superweapons, i.e. Death Star, Eclipse, Force storms, Mekhis’s superweapons, Foundry. (the Executor and the Ascendant Spear are not classed as superweapons – and the Spear is operating at full capacity)
  • Technology level is universal (unless considered archaic or advanced at the time): blaster fire, armouring, lightsabers etc. are all the same regardless of period, all that matters is size, quantity and power.
  • Use your imagination: obviously these powers existed in a different time frame but let’s just pretend.

 

So, the combatants: Darth Sidious, the most powerful Sith lord in galactic history, a manipulative, machiavellian megalomaniac. The Sith Emperor, an absolute master of Sith magic, cunning, patient and devoid of any emotion or empathy. He feared only death.

 

Both combatants ruled over vast and sinister empires. Sidious commanded the Galactic Empire and its infamous armies. And the Sith Emperor led innumerable servants of the dark side and his own military power. But when these forces collide, who will emerge victorious?

 

Let the Kaggath begin!

 

Victor: Sith Emperor

Edited by Beniboybling
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This will be good, but I have a quick question.

 

Does Sidious have any military commanders at his disposal? Tarkin? Veers? Piett?

 

I'd take Thrawn over any of your mentioned commanders.

 

In a one-on-one, I'd probably go with the Emperor to be honest. He's supposed to have taken the power of an entire planet into himself. Palpatine, as insanely powerful as he was, never did that.

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Galactic Empire would flatten the Sith Empire in any space engagements, it was revealed that at the height of their power there were 20,000 Imperial I class SDs out there, that isn't even counting the rest! Then you have an SSD for every sector.

 

Then you have the most powerful ship sqaudron of all time: Death Squadron, Vader's personal fleet of ships, led by the Executor SSD with six other SDs, like the Avenger, their combined power took out a fleet of 40, that's right 40 Rebel cruisers, including two Mon Calamari Star Dreadnoughts.

 

It seems using the information we have and simple maths, that there were around thirty Super Star Destroyers before the defeat of Endor.

 

The biggest game changer is the Empire's size, which also means a far far superior war industry churning out better ships at a faster rate than the Sith Empire could, add on top of that, the Battle Meditation that the Emperor used on a galactic scale and you have the Sith Empire losing battles left, right and centre.

 

Then you have an army of such a larger size than the Sith Empire, that it isn't even worth bothering to mention that the manpower pool goes in the Empire's favour.

 

The Intelligence branch of the GE is also much much better than the SE's.

 

So the GE has far more men, far more ships of better design, far better intelligence, better commanders overall, more space to not care about, more industry and the most powerful Sith Lord of all time influencing every battle.

 

Here is the one advantage the Sith Empire has: better ground troopers, by that I mean the Sith, with more powerful commanders, etc.... in the Sith Lords who would lead them.

 

Let's not even go there with a one-on-one battle, Sidious would school him in lightsaber combat, has the most powerful Force Lightning ever and can become the most powerful and devastating Sith being by an even higher degree than before if he does somehow die.

Edited by Rayla_Felana
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Well Sidious is canonically the best Sith ever so...

One-on-One Sidious > Vitiate

 

BUT this things obviously doesn't have to come down to a one-on-one. The next clear advantage that comes to mind is this: Vitiate has a LOT more Sith at his disposal then Sidious does.

 

At a glance the rest (when it comes to their empires) is all very simliar. I'll need to see some more points made before I can do much elaborating.

 

I think it'll be a close fight regardless, but I'll be rooting/arguing for Vitiate 'cause I'm a die hard OR man.

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Galactic Empire would flatten the Sith Empire in any space engagements, it was revealed that at the height of their power there were 20,000 Imperial I class SDs out there, that isn't even counting the rest! Then you have an SSD for every sector.

 

Then you have the most powerful ship sqaudron of all time: Death Squadron, Vader's personal fleet of ships, led by the Executor SSD with six other SDs, like the Avenger, their combined power took out a fleet of 40, that's right 40 Rebel cruisers, including two Mon Calamari Star Dreadnoughts.

 

It seems using the information we have and simple maths, that there were around thirty Super Star Destroyers before the defeat of Endor.

 

The biggest game changer is the Empire's size, which also means a far far superior war industry churning out better ships at a faster rate than the Sith Empire could, add on top of that, the Battle Meditation that the Emperor used on a galactic scale and you have the Sith Empire losing battles left, right and centre.

 

Then you have an army of such a larger size than the Sith Empire, that it isn't even worth bothering to mention that the manpower pool goes in the Empire's favour.

 

The Intelligence branch of the GE is also much much better than the SE's.

 

So the GE has far more men, far more ships of better design, far better intelligence, better commanders overall, more space to not care about, more industry and the most powerful Sith Lord of all time influencing every battle.

 

Here is the one advantage the Sith Empire has: better ground troopers, by that I mean the Sith, with more powerful commanders, etc.... in the Sith Lords who would lead them.

 

Let's not even go there with a one-on-one battle, Sidious would school him in lightsaber combat, has the most powerful Force Lightning ever and can become the most powerful and devastating Sith being by an even higher degree than before if he does somehow die.

 

I don't mean to be snappish, but there seems to be a lot of speculation here due to not having info regarding the SE.

 

1. Sidious's ships get zero tech advantage per Kaggath rules. They only get to be better tech-wise if they were awesome in their time (they were awesome for their time, but so were the SE's ships)

 

2. GE's won't have more ships then the SE. The SE has been building for a thousand years I think? They're be making ships just as, if not faster, then the GE's ships.

 

I just can't think of anything that would suggest that Sidious's fleet would be bigger then Vitiate's. Heck, I would think Vitiate's fleet would be bigger since they'd been growing for a thousand years.

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Yes, these characters are allowed - as are the Sith Empire's Moffs and military commanders e.g. VoidWolf

 

Wait a second; isn't that against the Kaggath rules?

 

People like Revan weren't allowed generals like Saul Karath before. How come Sidious is getting his generals?

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I totally agree that in a full scale battle of empires, the Galactic Empire would win. I just question whether Sidious could really be more powerful than a guy who consumed the power of all the individuals in his home planet (N-something?). Besides, lightsaber combat between two Sith Sorcerers (I think they'd both fall under that category) is pretty pointless. It'd be a contest of will and force power.
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I don't mean to be snappish, but there seems to be a lot of speculation here due to not having info regarding the SE.

 

1. Sidious's ships get zero tech advantage per Kaggath rules. They only get to be better tech-wise if they were awesome in their time (they were awesome for their time, but so were the SE's ships)

 

2. GE's won't have more ships then the SE. The SE has been building for a thousand years I think? They're be making ships just as, if not faster, then the GE's ships.

 

I just can't think of anything that would suggest that Sidious's fleet would be bigger then Vitiate's. Heck, I would think Vitiate's fleet would be bigger since they'd been growing for a thousand years.

 

The Star Destroyers are bigger, have more guns, have more shield generators and can carry more fighters, there are also well over 20,000 of them, The main Imperial Navy for the SE is seen right there in the game and then you have the Dark Council's fleets, twelve of them, a real match for the 20,000 SDs on the Empire's side.

 

You really think that the SE has a larger industry than the GALACTIC Empire? I would suggest looking it up, do remember that the Sith didn't take any of the Republic's industry, they blew it to hell, which is mused on as a fool's mistake later on in the Cold War by Malgus, doesn't matter how much time you have when your opponent has far more shipyards, most of which is run by the Kuat Drive Yards, a monster organization by the time of the galactic Civil War, the same organization that was part of the ship building industries used by the Republic Navy at the time of the Great galactic War, where the Republic Navy effectively equalled the SE in size.

 

If the Sith Empire only managed to get as far as the Mid-rim worlds, the deepest of which was Alderaan, before they met high resistance and even started losing ground up to Korriban, how well do you think they'd do against the Empire which replaced a Galactic Republic that had a thousand years of relative peace and time to build infrastructure, only the CIS could rival them because their forces were made up of the most easily produced droids in the Galaxy and they still lost.

 

Then the Empire itself that was so big, the New Republic didn't actually believe they could take on the Imperial Remnant until they realised the Empire had devolved into a Warlord like state that was too busy fighting each other, until of course Thrawn came along and became the Supreme commander of the Empire and was handily thrashing the New Republic again, because they'd stopped fighting themselves.

Edited by Rayla_Felana
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I totally agree that in a full scale battle of empires, the Galactic Empire would win. I just question whether Sidious could really be more powerful than a guy who consumed the power of all the individuals in his home planet (N-something?). Besides, lightsaber combat between two Sith Sorcerers (I think they'd both fall under that category) is pretty pointless. It'd be a contest of will and force power.

 

Darth Sidious did the same thing on Byss, with 16 billion people who didn't even realise it was happening, he did this slowly, with his own power and no rituals, whilst basically on vacation relaxing in his armchair, he also managed to mindwipe the entire of Coruscant so they didn't remember a Super Star Destroyer being parked underneath the Imperial Palace.

 

Oh and Darth Sidious was an ambidextrous master of every lightsaber form whilst Vitiate is noted as being no combatant at all and relatively useless with a lightsaber in the Revan novel.

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Do you one better, Shadow Guard or Sovereign Protector.

 

I was speaking from a military perspective, but "Oh Yeah!" those guys are beast.

 

But would the Dark Troopers, Shadow Guard and Sovereign Protectors be enough to counter the SE's Sith? I think so, though it will be a bloodbath.

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I was speaking from a military perspective, but "Oh Yeah!" those guys are beast.

 

But would the Dark Troopers, Shadow Guard and Sovereign Protectors be enough to counter the SE's Sith? I think so, though it will be a bloodbath.

 

Well the Shadow and Sovereign are special military. :p But ya I would think so, moreso the latter seeing as they would have at least basic training in using The Force(heightened reflexes/senses, maybe a force power or two) so they could be put on the level of a Sith or at least the average sith warrior, against a true Sith Lord though they could be in trouble.

Edited by Wolfninjajedi
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Wait a second; isn't that against the Kaggath rules?

 

People like Revan weren't allowed generals like Saul Karath before. How come Sidious is getting his generals?

This fight is a little difference, for one they won't appear in the tournament because they are simply too powerful, and secondly its the grand finally - so I thought I'd up the anti here. And besides, in the scale of things - how promiment is a few Moffs in comparison to the galaxies greatest Sith Lords?

 

We also need to really consider the importance of having a sith army - Sidious has few if any weapons to defend against the full might of a Sith - apart from himself and sheer firepower.

 

EDIT: People have mentioned Dark Troopers, Shadow Guard, etc. but how do they match up in terms of numbers and power?

Edited by Beniboybling
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Well the Shadow and Sovereign are special military. :p But ya I would think so, moreso the latter seeing as they would have at least basic training in using The Force(heightened reflexes/senses, maybe a force power or two) so they could be put on the level of a Sith or at least the average sith warrior, against a true Sith Lord though they could be in trouble.

 

Against your average rank and file Sith Warrior, the Shadow, Sovereign and Dark Troopers will be fine, but the Sith Lords will prove difficult. I'm thinking the Dark Troopers will be the most effective just because the the sheer firepower they can put out.

 

Or the AT-AT's can kill the Sith :p

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This fight is a little difference, for one they won't appear in the tournament because they are simply too powerful, and secondly its the grand finally - so I thought I'd up the anti here. And besides, in the scale of things - how promiment is a few Moffs in comparison to the galaxies greatest Sith Lords?

 

We also need to really consider the importance of having a sith army - Sidious has few if any weapons to defend against the full might of a Sith - apart from himself and sheer firepower.

 

EDIT: People have mentioned Dark Troopers, Shadow Guard, etc. but how do they match up in terms of numbers and power?

 

The number of Guardsmen are unknown, but speculated to be less then fifty to tens of thousands, but at any one point were estimated to be at 400. This is just the regular Royal Guard however, the exact numbers for the specialized variants are unknown but I guess if we take from what is said of the Royal Guard we could try and estimate, though it would be an estimation of...well an estimation.

 

The Dark Trooper is the same way.

Edited by Wolfninjajedi
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Or the AT-AT's can kill the Sith :p

Lol, you obviously haven't played TFU! But seriously, Force jump, lightsaber that can cut through anything, force lighting and Force push etc vs big walker with long, thin legs and a body just begging to be ripped apart.

 

I thought I might put by SWTOR Encloypedia to use and compare an Imperial Star Destroyer with a Harrower-Class Dreadnought:

 

Length

Harrower: 800 metres

Star Destroyer: 1600 metres

 

Troop Capactiy

Harrower: 7300

Star Destroyer: 9700

 

Starfighter/bomber Capacity

Harrower: 127 (35 shuttles)

Star Destroyer: 72 (23 shuttles)

 

Standard Armament:

Harrower: Turbolaser cannons, Quad-laser turrets, ion cannons, proton torpedo tubes, concussion missile launchers

Star Destroyer: ion cannons, turbolaser batteries, heavy turbolaser batteries, heavy ion cannons, tractor beams.

 

Overall the Star Destroyer is superior to the Harrower, but not by a considerable amount, a harrower could still take on a Star Destroyer and win. After destroyers displayed themselves to be vulnerable to star fighters in the Battle of Endor...

 

I may do some more of these on troops etc at a later date.

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Does the book specifically how much armament the Harrower ships carry?

 

Class 1 SDs carry= 6 Dual heavy turbolasers, 2 dual heavy ion cannons, 2 quad heavy turbolasers, 3 triple medium turbolasers, 2 medium turbolasers, 60 Taim & Bak XX-9 heavy turbolasers, 60 Borstel NK-7 ion cannons

 

So it has 135 total cannons on the ship and thats just a class 1 SD a class 2 SD has 154 cannons or more actually, the Borstel ion ones also could disable a ship for several minutes with volley fire.

Edited by Wolfninjajedi
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Kaggath Debaters, Sith lovers, we all know how awesome and epic vitiate's empire was, but honestly, the galactic empire could crush it easily for one sole reason. There was a lot of civil war going on in vitiate's empire. They're fighting slave revolts, citizens of newly conquered planets, and vitiate's sith even fight each other pretty often. For this reason, i believe Vitiate's empire would slowly corrode because there's just a bunch of civil war going on, but Palatine's empire, thanks to the rule of two, doesn't really have to watch for betrayal as nearly as much.

 

Now if we remove the fact they're at civil war, (thinking out loud starts here) I'd say they're pretty even. Now I know from others here that Thrawn was a great strategist in terms of space combat, but even he fell eventually (it just took him longer). I'm not denying he was a great strategist, but I honestly don't think having Thrawn means having an auto win for every space battle. Now, about the 1 on 1 vs sidious and vitiate, what i think would happen is that sidious winning, and maybe being a bit tired, but just ends up fighting and defeating a voice instead, so it wouldn't really be a win unless the rest of vitiate's empire was already dead. And to a bit of a tactical advantage, I have to give another point to Palpatine, just because he's.....in my opinion, not as caring of the older sith (naga sadow, marka ragnos), which would probably explain why he was willing to blow up Yavin 4, something vitiate probably would never do.

 

Last note, if Palpatine took Korriban, it would really hurt vitiate's empire in the long run. (End thinking out Loud)

 

I still root for vitiate.

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Kaggath Debaters, Sith lovers, we all know how awesome and epic vitiate's empire was, but honestly, the galactic empire could crush it easily for one sole reason. There was a lot of civil war going on in vitiate's empire. They're fighting slave revolts, citizens of newly conquered planets, and vitiate's sith even fight each other pretty often. For this reason, i believe Vitiate's empire would slowly corrode because there's just a bunch of civil war going on, but Palatine's empire, thanks to the rule of two, doesn't really have to watch for betrayal as nearly as much.

 

Now if we remove the fact they're at civil war, (thinking out loud starts here) I'd say they're pretty even. Now I know from others here that Thrawn was a great strategist in terms of space combat, but even he fell eventually (it just took him longer). I'm not denying he was a great strategist, but I honestly don't think having Thrawn means having an auto win for every space battle. Now, about the 1 on 1 vs sidious and vitiate, what i think would happen is that sidious winning, and maybe being a bit tired, but just ends up fighting and defeating a voice instead, so it wouldn't really be a win unless the rest of vitiate's empire was already dead. And to a bit of a tactical advantage, I have to give another point to Palpatine, just because he's.....in my opinion, not as caring of the older sith (naga sadow, marka ragnos), which would probably explain why he was willing to blow up Yavin 4, something vitiate probably would never do.

 

Last note, if Palpatine took Korriban, it would really hurt vitiate's empire in the long run. (End thinking out Loud)

 

I still root for vitiate.

Big error here, Vitiate is the most emotionless, uncaring Sith Lord who ever existed (OK so maybe we give Nihilus that one) He want to destroy the ENTIRE UNIVERSE!!! and then do it again! and again! He destroyed an entire planet and planned to do the same on a galatic scale. Vitiate would blow up Yavin 4 in his sleep. (if he could) He'd destroy the entire universe to win.

 

But anyway, seeing as both Empires are at the height of their powers, Vitiate does not suffer from in fighting - this is Vitiate at the helm everyone fears him Sith Empire. Oh and may I mention, Vititate as his own Imperial Guard, to counter Sidious.

 

IMO Vitiate's Sith slam into the Empire like a sledgehammer - I mean did you see how the 501st fared against the Ewoks? How the hell are they gonna beat the Sith? I say they lose most , if not all, ground battles. But thats my opinion - feel free to attack it. :p

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This fight is a little difference, for one they won't appear in the tournament because they are simply too powerful, and secondly its the grand finally - so I thought I'd up the anti here. And besides, in the scale of things - how promiment is a few Moffs in comparison to the galaxies greatest Sith Lords?

 

We also need to really consider the importance of having a sith army - Sidious has few if any weapons to defend against the full might of a Sith - apart from himself and sheer firepower.

 

EDIT: People have mentioned Dark Troopers, Shadow Guard, etc. but how do they match up in terms of numbers and power?

 

Wow.....

 

I give victory to SE because of this. Vitiate has the entire Dark Council and legions of Sith (and depending on the time he would have Malgus). *I* don't think there is a counter for this. I think Vitiate wins.

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Big error here, Vitiate is the most emotionless, uncaring Sith Lord who ever existed (OK so maybe we give Nihilus that one) He want to destroy the ENTIRE UNIVERSE!!! and then do it again! and again! He destroyed an entire planet and planned to do the same on a galatic scale. Vitiate would blow up Yavin 4 in his sleep. (if he could) He'd destroy the entire universe to win.

 

But anyway, seeing as both Empires are at the height of their powers, Vitiate does not suffer from in fighting - this is Vitiate at the helm everyone fears him Sith Empire. Oh and may I mention, Vititate as his own Imperial Guard, to counter Sidious.

 

IMO Vitiate's Sith slam into the Empire like a sledgehammer - I mean did you see how the 501st fared against the Ewoks? How the hell are they gonna beat the Sith? I say they lose most , if not all, ground battles. But thats my opinion - feel free to attack it. :p

 

To be fair, by the Battle of Endor the 501st were a bunch of very old men well passed their prime state. Being clones, and aging twice as fast as a normal human and since they started out during the first battle of the Clone Wars they would be old.

Edited by Wolfninjajedi
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