Nobody sets out, in any experience I've ever had, to make a game that gets the kind've forum backlash SWTOR gets across these forums. I've leveled more than a few criticisms myself; there are things with which I'm quite dissatisfied; but one thing I'd like to put forth to this community, such as it is, is the following.

Let's not forget that they're human beings just like the rest of us.

Win, lose or draw, there's no useful end to achieve in hating them for things some of us might well, for reasons real or imagined, be dissatisfied with. It doesn't help us, and it won't help them bring us a better game, no matter whose idea of 'better' we're subscribing to.

--

As this is, statedly, an appeal, I would like to declare it to be an appeal to reason. I'm not going to go off on any more of an emotional or moralized position than I already have, and I'm not interested in making any grandiose declarations than I made in address of hating on the devs above.

So, as an appeal to reason, I would ask that anyone reading this and not merely dismissing it out of hand keep in mind that there's a really good chance that the developers, being human just like you or I, didn't set out to jerk any of us around.

That they didn't set out to piss us off, to plainsay it.

--

In closing, I'd like to ask anybody reading this as that might take a moment to care to reflect on it. Even if you're not one that's bashed around on fellow forum-goers and devs, try to put yourselves in their shoes for a bit.

How would you feel if you'd spent years of your life working on a project of this magnitude and you saw some of what got said as much gets said and presented as much gets presented on this forum?

What sort of reaction might you have to it?

What sort of interest would you have in addressing posts made, were you in such position as to address various concerns and criticisms, as they are frequently made?

--

TL;DR -- Let's get proactive on cleaning up our attitudes on this here forum if we'd ever like any chance of anything we have to say being taken seriously. And because devs are people that can get demoralized and distanced from their passions on such a project as this too.

Paying customers have the right to comment as they choose.

Asking them, albeit however nicely I believe isn't right, they paid for the product.

Also, just my general opinion.. but I believe every product should be criticized for its faults.

I always see people saying "Leave them alone!"

If it weren't for people's expectations and criticisms then products would never need to be improved.

As a consumer you should always demand quality for your money,

Falling into acceptance that something isn't up to par and not voicing your concern only hurts progress.

Paying customers have the right to comment as they choose.

Asking them, albeit however nicely I believe isn't right, they paid for the product.

 

Also, just my general opinion.. but I believe every product should be criticized for its faults.

I always see people saying "Leave them alone!"

 

If it weren't for people's expectations and criticisms then products would never need to be improved.

 

As a consumer you should always demand quality for your money,

Falling into acceptance that something isn't up to par and not voicing your concern only hurts progress.

I would agree with you, but even though we have something called freedom of speech, there is also something called constructive criticism.

I have seen this kind of behaviour in more game forums, so it's not new to me.

What I am saying is that just because it's not against the law to express yourself, it doesn't improve the game when you don't actually tell people what it is that's wrong.

Criticism is good, for the exact reasons you mention. But all this "this sucks" and "the worst MMO evar" type of banter doesn't actually improve anything. It doesn't even tell people what exactly the problem is. That's the type of crap we can do without as far as I'm concerned.

With that, people are also often childish in the sense that they have unreasonable expectations and temper tantrums over ridiculous things. This gives too much value to relatively small elements.

So, constructive criticism: yes please.

Exaggeration, baseless accusations, wild generalisations, unwarranted superlatives and excessive emotional displays: no thanks.

I would agree with you, but even though we have something called freedom of speech, there is also something called constructive criticism.

 

I have seen this kind of behaviour in more game forums, so it's not new to me.

 

What I am saying is that just because it's not against the law to express yourself, it doesn't improve the game when you don't actually tell people what it is that's wrong.

 

Criticism is good, for the exact reasons you mention. But all this "this sucks" and "the worst MMO evar" type of banter doesn't actually improve anything. It doesn't even tell people what exactly the problem is. That's the type of crap we can do without as far as I'm concerned.

 

With that, people are also often childish in the sense that they have unreasonable expectations and temper tantrums over ridiculous things. This gives too much value to relatively small elements.

 

So, constructive criticism: yes please.

 

Exaggeration, baseless accusations, wild generalisations, unwarranted superlatives and excessive emotional displays: no thanks.

Yes, I agree with this.

And my initial reply to the thread - I also agree with you, kinda, but at the same time I can see that there are some very, very bad decisions being made and somebody is not stopping certain people from doing more of those.

They are human beings, but there's this thing called brain storm. If you have enough people you can avoid making big mistakes, like choosing this Engine for the game.

The community is also pretty darn good when it comes to suggestions. There were plenty of good ones given, and people were pretty darn productive during Beta, yet it pains me to say that the Developers didn't really listen.

I can honestly say, that this anger being thrown around is coming from disappointment, because many of us tried very hard to help Bioware do the right things, and I know it's hard to do everything the community wants, because some things would actually damage the game (see LFD) but then again, some suggestions were clearly obvious to me and I am surprised Bioware didn't implement them.

The World of Warcraft General Forums have been filled with whines, cries, complaints, threats and statements of cancelled accounts, predictions of the death of WoW for every reason under the sun and just a generally unpleasant place for over 7 years now.

I would hope that devs aren't taking anything in these forums too personally. This is pretty much par for the coarse for mmo forums. Good, genuine issues brought up in a constructive manner will always be the vast minority of posts. Really it's the sanity of the forum moderators I'm concerned for. They're the ones who have to slog through this vile mess to find stuff to bring to the devs' attention.

Here's to you Mr or Ms Forum Moderator. *cheers*

bah, the internet is just an excuse to remove the filter that most people have in place when dealing with folks face to face. You have to take everything someone says with a grain of salt in this environment. You're always going to have the "cry and quit" type, the "nerd rage" type, forum trolls, generally people starved for attention in the real world so they do everything they can to spark drama on the web. It's nothing new and the devs and mods are well aware of it.

I say let them continue to act like spoiled children, personally. I usually end up laughing at them, not with them =p

As others sayed, Freedom of speech and the right to speak your mind as a costumer don't give us the right to be abusive and extremly rude as we used to see so many times in this forum!!

A total Lack of education is not "cool" or "fun" at all! We see here persons posting in such a way that they look like enraged monkeys or dogs ( My apologises to that 2 animals because i know for sure many of them can be more civilized then us!)

( Terrible sorry for my bad English)...

I'm sure they bang out their 9-5, meet up for drinks later and laugh at these forums because just like you said, they're people too. I wouldn't worry about it.

that would explain why writers and programmers have been quitting their jobs at bioware over the last month.

http://www.darthhater.com/articles/swtor-news/19939-drew-karpyshyn-leaves-bioware

http://massively.joystiq.com/2012/02/20/swtor-devs-leaving-bioware-to-make-indie-game/

to be honest i'd probably leave as well.

I'm sure they know how to differentiate between the constructive criticism and the idiots, or naive posters that complain for the sheer hell of it, or cos they don't know much about games.

They should be taking the points people are making and use some of them to improve the game. The rest, I'm sure they're adult enough to see it for what it is.

I completely agree that we should have more constructive criticism, as that kind of conflict gives just the right amount of input people need to improve themselves. To be honest if someone came to me and said "fakdizsheeet and fakoff!" to the work i spent my years on, I would punch that person in the face, whereas things like "i think it would work better if you did X instead of Y" would be more appreciated and taken more seriously.

I also agree that a lot of players in the community, almost as much as the number of idiots running around, are very sensible, creative, and experienced MMO players who have a general idea on what makes a good MMO and how it can be made. Balance in all things my friends.

By the way, why don't we get together and make a f2p mmo, see it from the other side for once?

Let's not forget that they're human beings just like the rest of us.

Pol Pot was also a human.

Your point?

The types of topics we see here are just par for the course. Both the WoW and Rift forums were in a similar state at release. I didn't really haunt the forums of other games I played, but they were likely the same.

Forums have long been a place for people to complain about stuff (not that's the only thing that goes on or anything though), especially when the developers make their presence known. I mean, I've seen everything from mild irritation to personal attacks to death threats on the WoW forums, many of those aimed at Ghostcrawler, who went out of his way to communicate with posters and explain design decisions in that game.

Hopefully the SWTOR devs have developed a thick skin towards the verbal abuse on the forums. I disagree with them on some points myself (Operative healers are NOT fine, whatever they want to say) but that's just my opinion.

opinions aside, I agree that moderation in how we comunicate is a good thing, but I wont say stop complaining for that reason.

There are alot of good threads around here pointing at whats wrong (from preformance issues, content/lack of content to Customer support) and I feel that it's our duty as paying and caring customers to point these things out, if we want the game to be as good as we want it to be that is.

And hey, they story in this game is pretty decent!

Let's get proactive on cleaning up our attitudes on this here forum if we'd ever like any chance of anything we have to say being taken seriously. And because devs are people that can get demoralized and distanced from their passions on such a project as this too.

Getting it so wrong.... I have more sympathy for desperate Funcom.

Paying customers have the right to comment as they choose.

Asking them, albeit however nicely I believe isn't right, they paid for the product.

 

Also, just my general opinion.. but I believe every product should be criticized for its faults.

I always see people saying "Leave them alone!"

 

If it weren't for people's expectations and criticisms then products would never need to be improved.

 

As a consumer you should always demand quality for your money,

Falling into acceptance that something isn't up to par and not voicing your concern only hurts progress.

I absolutely agree to such extent as that the criticism and commentary is even halfway civilized. Conversational "I like this, don't like that, this other thing is pissing me right off for this reason and that reason." is undeniably valuable and vital to such things as this.

Its the wind designers and marketers and the whole ensemble upstairs can stick a finger into and get an idea of which way it's blowing, and all that.

So no, I'd never ask people to just start saying nice things for the sake of being nice; be critical. Don't hesitate to let it be said if you're angry or disappointed; just try to say so more than behave as one having a tantrum.

That's the gist I'm getting at right there. I'd very much like all of us in all our diversities of opinion to be a body of players worth referencing.

I'd like for this forum community to be something valuable -for- our feedback, not despite our howling ranting.

And too, to show some civil respect to not just the devs, but to eachother, or howling ranting is where we'll typically stay from now until the game shuts down.

And that, to me, would be a terrible waste of the opportunity wasted by so many forum communities to shape up a bit, get a smidge presentable and be useful to their own interests as sources of feedback rather than insufferable, ignorable mobs.

I agree, the only reason a lot of these negative posts are made to begin with is because the posters can hide behind their anonimity. You dont go to a store and be this insultive to the personnel. Just because it is anonymous, doesnt make it right.

A lot of people here are a long way from constructive criticism so the argument that it only improves the game is faulty.

I have made some fairly unnuanced posts here myself opposing haters and Ill try to limit that because it rarely helps. Maybe we could all try to give a little less attention to undeserving posts.

Momma allways said .."if you've got nothing good to say, then say nothing at all"

If we followed that mantra on the forums, nothing would get fixed either. Nature of this beast unfortunately.

Paying customers have the right to comment as they choose.

Asking them, albeit however nicely I believe isn't right, they paid for the product.

 

Also, just my general opinion.. but I believe every product should be criticized for its faults.

I always see people saying "Leave them alone!"

 

If it weren't for people's expectations and criticisms then products would never need to be improved.

 

As a consumer you should always demand quality for your money,

Falling into acceptance that something isn't up to par and not voicing your concern only hurts progress.

There is a difference from a person writting a post about not liking the game, and someone making a post about issues with the game as in bugs and glitches.

The problem with this forum is that most if not all posts are pure dribble written by spiteful kids. No productivity in most of the posts, just foul "I WANT NOW" type of posts.

Yeh there is a few issues with the game, bugs, engine tweaking etc. But none of it deserves the trash that some of the kids in here post.

Pol Pot was also a human.

 

Your point?

Humans tend to function most optimally in social groups when terms of communication are not merely thrust upon them, but agreed upon in the form of a (typically implied) social contract.

Pol Pot was indeed human. His actions, no matter how heinous, do not alter that state.

If anything, they exemplify a capacity of humanity that ought be learned from and, for all our mutual goods, never be repeated in spirit or in deed.

So, my point: will we agree to a basic social contract of reasonable decorum?

We stand to gain a modicum of respectability as a forum community if we do, as well as credibility as a representative agency that is valuable to our gaming interests in the context of SWTOR as well as to those providing us with the game.

If not...please take a broad look about the forums and ask yourself if this is how it should stay when it would be -so easy- for it to be otherwise. For it to be better in terms of that referenced value and credibility.

Paying customers have the right to comment as they choose.

.

No, they don't.

No where in any law or constitution does it allow you to berate, slander, verbally abuse, or freely insult someone because you pay for their product.

This whole feedom of expression thing does not apply this way. Frredom of expression is the freedom to express beliefs and opinions. It is not Carte Blanche to abuse another person or entity.

If you can't politely discuss problems or concerns, than, as my parents used to say, "Don't say anything if you can't say it politely".

You don't have to like people, but you have to be polite and civil. The anonymous nature of the internet lets people get away with being complete and total (insert apprpriate adjective here).

Make your suggestions and complaints with a civil tongue. Otherwise you risk being completely ignored regardless of the validity of your complaint.

I have zero sympathy because:

1) They ignored beta tester feedback on the majority of issues

2) They continue to ignore PTR feedback

3) They outright lied during development about what their goals were for this game, especially their reasoning for omitting certain features that they have since gone back on to add

4) They copied aspects from various MMOs (which is fine) - but they ignored the most important aspects that keep a MMO going long-term

5) They focused on the wrong playerbase

They simply had a "I'm better than you" attitude during developement, poking fun at other MMOs and claiming theirs was going to be this special snowflake and it wasn't. They generated a lot of empty hype over a completely sub-par MMO experience. It's the most linear MMO I've ever played being that there is zero choice AT ALL in the leveling experience. The planets have no life to them, the game world has no life to it. Your actions have no impact on anything you see. For something so focused on "story" they failed to copy the ONE thing that WoW does that would 100% benefit this game. PHASING. Phasing would have allowed them to remove the constant tunnel instance gameplay and instead focus on phases of advancement so you could at least see people out and about instead of everyone disappearing behind green curtains.

There's more - but I don't want to QQ any more right now.

that would explain why writers and programmers have been quitting their jobs at bioware over the last month.

 

http://www.darthhater.com/articles/swtor-news/19939-drew-karpyshyn-leaves-bioware

 

http://massively.joystiq.com/2012/02/20/swtor-devs-leaving-bioware-to-make-indie-game/

 

 

to be honest i'd probably leave as well.

I'm pretty sure this is what the OP was talking about...

The links you posted say the following have left BW: 1 writer, 1 programmer, 2 concept artists, yet you make out like people are jumping a sinking ship.

Karpyshyn stated many times he was leaving because he wanted to work on other writing projects and has a good relationship with BW, the concept artists probably felt they'd done the majority of their job in designing the world and wanted to go work on something new.

The fact that the last 3 started their own indie company suggests they wanted to do something different, which is perfectly normal.

Making out that BW staff are deserting in droves is somewhat sensationalist, a company with hundreds of staff can expect a fairly moderate staff turnover.