we can't avoid that actually regs are full of operatives concealment and their rep mirror.

 

and just for this they deserve a nerf to the ground.

 

i hate this spec. but really.

 

#nerfconcealmentuntildeath

guesss omeone has been getting a lot of sap caps on him or cant dmg operatives when they roll

Operative DPS is in a very good state atm. The major problem is, that they are squishy as hell. Just have a look at Brontes final burn: A group with 4 Operatives would be very painful for the healers. At least you can carry one through. The dps with good survivability (merc, marauder, sniper) are carrying the mechanics (and doing indirect dps with that) and operatives are doing the dps.

SWTORs goal should be, to make class stacking impossible on those fights. Some classes are better to engage certain mechanics, others are better to engage the dps check. A good mix is the way to go. The Devs are doing it well atm and operatives shouldn't be nerfed too hard.

Another topic is the necassarity of the burst spec. In many fights, the burstiness of lethality is enough for the dps-check. Giving Concealment an armor debuff would make the spec more useful in my opinion.

SWTORs goal should be, to make class stacking impossible on those fights. Some classes are better to engage certain mechanics, others are better to engage the dps check. A good mix is the way to go. The Devs are doing it well atm and operatives shouldn't be nerfed too hard.

 

Another topic is the necassarity of the burst spec. In many fights, the burstiness of lethality is enough for the dps-check. Giving Concealment an armor debuff would make the spec more useful in my opinion.

Yes, I play many specs. E.g. a Sniper can do pretty good damage, if no one attacks him, area damage can be negated, but heavy melee damage is a serious problem. Shadow tank is great to keep agro and is mobile, but then damage is (of course) low. Any Scoundrel (not just healers, but also dps) can easily place heal-over-time on everyone. Marauder can do a lot of damage while in Annihilation can also heal a bit, A Gunnery commando can do great area damage, pretty good single target damage (less then Gunslinger tho) and also some healing if really needed, and is highly mobile. So, many different specs are doing great and I much love a variety of specs being viable and played. (That being said both my Scoundrel and Commando tanked a bit in flashpoints)

Operative DPS is in a very good state atm. The major problem is, that they are squishy as hell. Just have a look at Brontes final burn: A group with 4 Operatives would be very painful for the healers. At least you can carry one through. The dps with good survivability (merc, marauder, sniper) are carrying the mechanics (and doing indirect dps with that) and operatives are doing the dps.

 

SWTORs goal should be, to make class stacking impossible on those fights. Some classes are better to engage certain mechanics, others are better to engage the dps check. A good mix is the way to go. The Devs are doing it well atm and operatives shouldn't be nerfed too hard.

 

Another topic is the necassarity of the burst spec. In many fights, the burstiness of lethality is enough for the dps-check. Giving Concealment an armor debuff would make the spec more useful in my opinion.

who da fu** play 4 operatives in brontes nim?

or if it just hm, it really doesnt matter right?

about that armour debuff its an intereting aprouch if i may say.

who da fu** play 4 operatives in brontes nim?

 

or if it just hm, it really doesnt matter right?

 

about that armour debuff its an intereting aprouch if i may say.

Classes are overtuned, when you can take 4 of them into the hardest encounters.

In HM it doesn't matter. Tanks taunt Brontes in the final Burn, so DPS didn't receive much damage. For NiM, several Operative DPS said, that aggro at the wrong time would kill them. However, you can avoid kicks, when you stealth out at the right time. However, that wouldn't work with 4 Operatives.

So, 4 Ops @Brontes wouldn't be a good idea. For Styrak, you may also run into healing-problems at the kell-dragon-burn. For, me, classes are not overtuned, when you cannot stack them. Before 5.3, you could stack Snipers or Mercs and it was fine. Currently it may be possible, but not so easy anymore.

Operative DPS is in a very good state atm.

The major problem is, that they are squishy as hell.

You first state that they are in a good state and then you complain about their squishiness. One statement can't be true.

And even if I assume that you wanted to state that a lower survivability compensates for an overly powerful damage output, that would be wrong. Instead, the only correct cause of action would then be to bring both their DPS en par with all the remaining classes as well as their survivability.

Very few people play Scoundrels or Operatives. Nerfing them will make that even lower.

Why not buf the class and make them more attractive huh?

More variety, more fun!

You first state that they are in a good state and then you complain about their squishiness. One statement can't be true.

P sure he means their actual DPS output is fine, not using the term to refer to Concealment/Lethality specs. DPS is good, Survivability is bad is totally a statement where both are true : )

You first state that they are in a good state and then you complain about their squishiness. One statement can't be true.

 

And even if I assume that you wanted to state that a lower survivability compensates for an overly powerful damage output, that would be wrong. Instead, the only correct cause of action would then be to bring both their DPS en par with all the remaining classes as well as their survivability.

Indeed the high dps compensates the low survivability. I don't see any reason, why this is a problem. It's a typical glass-canon. In my opinion, dps and utility should be in a symbiosis. Every class has its advanteges. Mercs have their mobility, their survivability and the easy rotation; good for target swapping, more flexible in energy management but low dps overall; marauders have Predation, bloodthirst, survivability, mobility, but melee, target swapping is not the easiest thing, so they have more sustained dps, Operatives have no mobility, no good target swapping, a medium Raidbuff and very bad survivability, so they have high dps; AP PTs have easy target swapping, a very good mobility, mid-range, medium survivability, so they have medium dps.

When all classes have equal opportunites in terms of dps, survivability, mobility etc., we won't need 18 different DPS-specs anymore. Then, we only need one class, with a dps, a tank and a heal spec.

Balance doesn't mean, that alle classes must have the same characteristics. It just means, that they must be competitive compared to each other, concerning to their role. Some specs are a glass canon, other specs are neither glass nor canon. The diversity of classes and specs is an important part of an mmo.

Indeed the high dps compensates the low survivability. I don't see any reason, why this is a problem. It's a typical glass-canon. In my opinion, dps and utility should be in a symbiosis. Every class has its advanteges. Mercs have their mobility, their survivability and the easy rotation; good for target swapping, more flexible in energy management but low dps overall; marauders have Predation, bloodthirst, survivability, mobility, but melee, target swapping is not the easiest thing, so they have more sustained dps, Operatives have no mobility, no good target swapping, a medium Raidbuff and very bad survivability, so they have high dps; AP PTs have easy target swapping, a very good mobility, mid-range, medium survivability, so they have medium dps.

 

When all classes have equal opportunites in terms of dps, survivability, mobility etc., we won't need 18 different DPS-specs anymore. Then, we only need one class, with a dps, a tank and a heal spec.

 

Balance doesn't mean, that alle classes must have the same characteristics. It just means, that they must be competitive compared to each other, concerning to their role. Some specs are a glass canon, other specs are neither glass nor canon. The diversity of classes and specs is an important part of an mmo.

In substance I tend to agree.

Indeed the high dps compensates the low survivability. I don't see any reason, why this is a problem. It's a typical glass cannon. In my opinion, dps and utility should be in a symbiosis. Every class has its advanteges.[...]

 

When all classes have equal opportunites in terms of dps, survivability, mobility etc., we won't need 18 different DPS-specs anymore. Then, we only need one class, with a dps, a tank and a heal spec.

 

Balance doesn't mean, that alle classes must have the same characteristics. It just means, that they must be competitive compared to each other, concerning to their role. Some specs are a glass canon, other specs are neither glass nor canon. The diversity of classes and specs is an important part of an mmo.

I'm sorry, but that's nonsense. First, there's a difference between balance and stylistic divercity. these two parts don't contradict each other. So even with 18 DPS classes that all deal the same overall damage, there are still enough options to make classes unique, diverse and flavorful.

And second, it's ludicrous to try to achieve balance by keeping multiple significant inbalances. An attack that could oneshot an opponent but has a 60s cooldown would still be insanely inbalanced although the DPS score would be similar to other attacks. Likewise, a skill that absorbs 100% of the damage 1/10th the time would still be different than a permanent 10% damage prevention.

Even worse, there would be no way to measure the degree of balance. A class that deals more damage but has a lower survivability would be strictly superior in any situation where survivability isn't a factor... i.e. in most operations. And it gets crucial when the inbalance is unparalleled. That's why games introduce different class roles and categories in the first place.

And feel free to bring up anything that support your claim and shows the magnitude of Operative's 'lack of survivability'.

Even worse, there would be no way to measure the degree of balance. A class that deals more damage but has a lower survivability would be strictly superior in any situation where survivability isn't a factor... i.e. in most operations. And it gets crucial when the inbalance is unparalleled. That's why games introduce different class roles and categories in the first place.

With such simple equation, in your opinion, every sustained melee class must be superior in "most operations", because they (should) have the highest dps overall. In addition, when they balance defensive abilities after your opinion, there would be no reason, to play other specs. That would create a situation of great imbalance between the sustained melee classes and the other specs.

However, your equation is wrong. You maybe can take 4 classes of this type in an operation. You would possibly down most of the bosses. However, in some cases, you need different classes with different advantages. Operations are not only about DPSing some NPC's. It's about mechanics. There are different classes, which are good to deal with different mechanics. For example TFB boss 5: A shadow dps can survive every tentecle slam with force speed and even without. It's superior for this boss fight. But it's not for - let's say - Dread Council.

What I wanted to point out: In my opinion, there are several characteristics, that are making a class helpful to deal with a fight, that are more or less important, relating to the different boss encounters. It's mobility, rotational difficulty, AoE-abilities, range, etc..... and survivability and damage output are part of that list. The devs job is, to bring all these points in a symbiosis. That allows classes with great advantages and disadvantages, like the Operative DPS. It's a damage machine, that has - compared to other classes - a low survivability.

Another example is Serenity/Hatred: Great AoE-Melee-Damage, but also low survivability. It is useful in some cases. However, you won't take it to Brontes NiM, because in this fight, you need other advanteges.

The reason, why it is so difficult to properly balance the classes is, that this one class possibly has an advantage, which makes it more useful in different situations, then other classes. Another example: AP PT. There are requests to buff it's defensive cooldowns. When the devs are following these suggestions, AP PT would be the to-go-class @Brontes NiM. It is already very strong there and will be even better with a decent survivability buff.

And that's the crux: You cannot equalize all classes damage and surviability - the classes are about many more factors, then these two. And, when you try, to bring all those characteristics at the same level, you would destroy their uniqueness. Then, you would have 18 classes, which are mostly the same.

With such simple equation, in your opinion, every sustained melee class must be superior in "most operations", because they (should) have the highest dps overall.

Over 3 million operation parses show that even the 'overpowered' Arsenal spec couldn't compete with the DPS of other melee or sustained specs. So at least, I have some data proving my point.

StarParse surely isn't flawless, but it's hard to deny that it's pretty close to the truth. For me, the downsides are that you can't filter on a certain spec, a given patch version or exlude any damage that wasn't dealt to the boss (i.e. in case of AoE damage f.e.). But it's still more valuable than a subjective opinion.

And feel free to go through the results of each boss and check how operatives perform.

Over 70% of all operatives played Lethality - the melee sustained spec. First, you can compare operatives it with assassins - over 90% of them playing Deception - the melee burst spec. Then compare them with Snipers - over 80% of them chose one of the ranged 'sustained' specs that had an even higher DPS before the recent nerf. It must be exceptionally easy to find out DPS disadvantages for operatives. And the third task is to compare Operatives with Sorcerers. Over 70% of them chose the ranged burst spec and according to your 'operatives are just fine' statement, these two DPS classes are equally powerful. One of the sorcerer specs was buffed, but only by approx. 1.7%. So It should be more than trivial for you to quote this sentence and to provide the data that proves your point. Right?

In addition, when they balance defensive abilities after your opinion, there would be no reason, to play other specs.

Please quote the part where I wrote something about how to fix the defensive abilities of operatives. And even more so, feel free to be more elaborate on the part how distinct, but overall equally powerful defensive capabilities renders specs useless.

And once again, feel free to bring up any data that shows the operative's extraordinary deficit in regard of survivability. This is your only argument, so you better be specific on that part at least.

You maybe can take 4 classes of this type in an operation. You would possibly down most of the bosses. However, in some cases, you need different classes with different advantages. Operations are not only about DPSing some NPC's. It's about mechanics. There are different classes, which are good to deal with different mechanics. For example TFB boss 5: A shadow dps can survive every tentecle slam with force speed and even without. It's superior for this boss fight. But it's not for - let's say - Dread Council.

And here, you derail from the discussion about overall DPS balance by highlighting the differences of particular skills.

In your example about TFB, the concept is to leave the platform before the tentacle hits the ground. And even the ranged specs have to jump onto the platform to be able to attack the tentacle. According to your logic, BioWare would have to buff all ranged classes!

And how about Kephess and the AoE damage reflection. Does that qualify for a permanent damage advantage for certain classes? Or how about Blaster's Rain of Bomb special. Do the defensive abilities that prevent 99~100% of the damage justify for a permanently lower DPS?

What I wanted to point out: In my opinion, there are several characteristics, that are making a class helpful to deal with a fight, that are more or less important, relating to the different boss encounters. It's mobility, rotational difficulty, AoE-abilities, range, etc..... and survivability and damage output are part of that list. The devs job is, to bring all these points in a symbiosis. That allows classes with great advantages and disadvantages, like the Operative DPS. It's a damage machine, that has - compared to other classes - a low survivability.

Sure, you can repeat that statement, but it doesn't add anything new to the discussion.

My point is that BioWare has to balance the effectiveness of all clasess without taking survivability into acount, simply because the latter might not matter. For the same reason, BioWare has to balance the HPS of every heal spec without taking survivability into consideration.

Another example is Serenity/Hatred: Great AoE-Melee-Damage, but also low survivability. It is useful in some cases. However, you won't take it to Brontes NiM, because in this fight, you need other advanteges.

Hatred - just like Madness - is centered around life leech, restoring small amount of HPs on every attack. And in most PvE fights that's really powerful.

In an optimal case, Hatred can achieve an HPS score of approx. 1.7k - i.e. 1,7k HP restored each second. But even in less optimal situations, they should be able to achieve an efficiency of 80% or more. Checking some HM brontes parses, the DTPS score is somewhere between 1.2k and 1.7k and the typical HM brontes HPS score are about 1.0k and 2.0k for non-tank teammates. And that means Hatred Assassins can easily outheal most of the damage they receive.

And they are well suited for the NIM fights as well. Force Shroud/Resilence can absorb 100% of the damage the spheres might deal and the 60% damage absorb of Phasing Phantasm / One with the Shadow is unparalleled among all DPS classes. Force Cloak can be used during phase transition or in case of critical RNG damage (by Kephess f.e.) and the heal will be on top of that

See the difference? I use available data and precise statements to support anything I say. I thereby enable anyone to falsify my points either by be rectifying my conclusion or by providing alternative data.

And that's the crux: You cannot equalize all classes damage and surviability - the classes are about many more factors, then these two. And, when you try, to bring all those characteristics at the same level, you would destroy their uniqueness. Then, you would have 18 classes, which are mostly the same.

Most DPS classes already deal a similar amount of damage. What BioWare plans is to bring the 3 DPS specs they haven't adjusted in line with the remaining 15 specs. In other words, everything bad you claim would happen if the specs would deal an equal amount of damage is already the status quo for most classes. There are 8~9 specs in the +0% category (depending on where you put Fury). Did an apocalypse happen? Were they rendered useless?

Even worse, you believe that a 3% DPS loss for Concealment / Scrapper to bring the DPS o this single spec closer to the score of all the other specs in this category would be of major significance, even before you know how BioWare plans to achieve that. Maybe they don't lower the DPS directly and alter the energy management or the usage of Tactical Advantage. And maybe, they lower the 'behind the target' restriction of Backstab like they did with Shadow Strike.

Lethality on the other side could get some nerf. Those who are playing it skilled may get the best numbers over 50 millions dos on wrzs, and their biggest hit may be 35-38 k (i saw some of them hitted that hard). Lethality see s to be opped in skilled hands

I must be doing something wrong, I get 8k hits on mine. Rarely more than that and never more than 10k, at 70. Also, millions of dot spread fluff on a pvp scoreboard means nothing.

Lethality/Ruffian damage in pvp is a joke.

Lethal Stike (the big single hitter) deals a 50/50 split between internal and kinetic, so you won't ever see it in a great big 1-hittter. But if each half does 10k....

Also, Corrosive Assault deals massive damage assuming you set your dots up and they didn't cleanse them off. But that attack is also not shown in 1 big hit, but in a "volley of corrosive shots."

Anyway, the way I like to play Lethality is to dot everyone up and offheal. When I see an enemy at less than 50%, I roll in with my CA's because ops deal big damage to enemies with less than 30% health.

But ya, go concealment.

You first state that they are in a good state and then you complain about their squishiness. One statement can't be true.

 

And even if I assume that you wanted to state that a lower survivability compensates for an overly powerful damage output, that would be wrong. Instead, the only correct cause of action would then be to bring both their DPS en par with all the remaining classes as well as their survivability.

You just really don't get what he's trying to say bud. Must be an SM hero or something.

Some classes have major advantages in PVE. Let's take Gunslingers for example. If Lethality is doing 11k dps why not bring 4 to every raid and have 44k dps be pumped out by just 4 of them! You could easily make every DPS check like this. However you won't be able to make the heal check like this, that is where gunslingers come in, they can provide a Damage Reduction Sheild for the whole raid making them a valuable part of the group. Let's take PT for example....they are able to sonic rebounder the group and give everyone a reflect on the next hit, which is very useful on fights like Underlurker and Draxus. Now let's use Sentinels. They have a raid buff, arguably the best raid buff, and they also have Transcendence which is great for helping the group to do mechanics like getting out of the red in corrupter zero. It also grants everyone 10% Defense for a few seconds which can also help the healers.

So what can operatives do? Aside from a raid buff and occasional stealth Rez, all they can do for the group is DPS, it makes sense why they have the highest DPS doesn't it? They have the least utility.

You bring different DPS to do different jobs. For example when my guild kills Firebrand and Stormcaller NIM we bring an Scroundrel, Sentinel, Gunslinger and Shadow. Each has their own job to do. The gunslinger puts shields down when the tank is low on defensive cool downs, he also is able to double dot both tanks. The sentinel uses transcendence to help everyone get back to the bosses quicker after the orange Sheild phase. The shadow DPS off taunts for the firebrand tank on the swaps....have you noticed a reoccurring theme here???!!?! All of those classes are helping the raid in more ways then just dpsing! They bring UTILITY to the raid. What does our Scoundrel do? He does top DPS and that's about it, don't get me wrong he's super valuable and we would struggle to down it without him but that's all Scoundrel DPS can bring to the table. The ability to pump out damage a little better then everyone else.

You are one of the types of people that will never be happy. At the moment some classes will outdps others and some out survive others. i personally think a few classes need buffs, like Sage, Commando, Sharpshooter, Plasmatech and Focus...however balance isn't in a bad place. If they flatlined it and made it so every class did say 9k no more no less you just did 9k.... Then people like you would be complaining that Scoundrel, Vanguard and Shadows need a buff because they are too squishy.