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Why isn't there a WZ quitters cooldown?

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > PvP
Why isn't there a WZ quitters cooldown?
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Caeliux's Avatar


Caeliux
03.27.2013 , 11:28 AM | #301
Quote: Originally Posted by JamieKirby View Post
If they had a warzone quiters debuff, then there wouldn't be any pvp in the game. lol
Yes there would, rules in Rift, WoW, and LoL are implemented and tons of ppl play them games.
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SuperGrunt's Avatar


SuperGrunt
03.27.2013 , 11:31 AM | #302
Quote: Originally Posted by JamieKirby View Post
If they had a warzone quiters debuff, then there wouldn't be any pvp in the game. lol
No it wouldn't, there are plenty of MMOs with quitter debuffs out there that have no problem fielding PVP teams. We also have a Debuff in place for the first person that leaves a FP, yet you don't see people QQing about that, the queue times might be slightly longer than they would be without, but you end up finishing more of them than you don't finish, and also you spend less time waiting for that first pop, than you would waiting for a replacement every 5 minutes because you keeping wiping and people can't stand not one shotting everything.
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SuperGrunt's Avatar


SuperGrunt
03.27.2013 , 11:37 AM | #303
Quote: Originally Posted by Dawncatcher View Post
At least quitting is taking more responsibility for your own desire to not play with an undergeared player than just kicking them out of a group you didn't even bother to create yourself. Yes, suggesting he go fix his gear and come back later would probably be more productive than just quitting, but if he's determined to challenge himself by trying to fight undergeared, there's not really much you can do about it, nor should be able to do about it, other than quit and/or stop letting Bioware pick your teammates and make a pre-made with a minimum gear requirement. Although one would hope someone who wants to challenge themselves being undergeared would test it out in duels rather than warzones, and you could tell them as much. However, being undergeared isn't technically against the terms of service, nor should it be.
The Terms of Service are not a shield to protect you. They are there to establish rules under which you can be punished outside of the game. IE Not just a slight debuff for being a total jerk and saying, "F everyone else, I helped you lose and don't care, bye."
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TUXs's Avatar


TUXs
03.27.2013 , 11:50 AM | #304
Quote: Originally Posted by SuperGrunt View Post
Actually I wasn't the one who brought Pre-mades into this discussion, and I shut him up by pointing out that fact to him. Yet you continue to go on about it.

Point of the matter is that if you want to go up against pre-mades then you wouldn't be in unranked PVP ROFLstomping PUGs in Recruit Armor. You would nut up get a 8 man group and go ranked. My ideas to improve WZs are as follows.

1. Pre-made groups in WH/EWH have no business in PUG WZs. If you want to group up, there is a queue for that, it's called Ranked WZs, get a bigger group, grow a pair and earn your victory, or accept your defeat.
2. Ranked WZs need to be able to have smaller groups so that people that can only get a 4 man group together have something that they can do other than Solo Queue for unranked WZs.
3. Leaving ANY group content for ANY reason that is not due to other people kicking you should result in you being prevented from doing that same activity for a period of time. I personally feel that 30 minutes is reasonable, if you don't then obviously the Dev team would take both opinions into consideration, and get more feedback than just ours, and make a decision, that we would both have to deal with, and likely neither one of us would be happy with.
4. People that join an WZ or FP or Ops in-progress should get some added incentive for joining it, and should also know before hand that they are joining it in-progress.
5. People complaining that if such and such happens they are leaving, in my opinion just need to leave. That is childish and not progressing the discussion.

I feel that all of these would help to alleviate the Quitter epidemic that we have, but at least 2 of them are really not on topic for this thread.
Actually, having work to do shut me up, not you or your comments.

I brought up "premades" as a reason I leave, hence my desire for not having a debuff, so I was 100% on-topic. I don't quit when I'm losing, but I do play this MMO (any MMO) to be with the people I want to play with. Removing my ability to group up in an MMO makes this more like a console shooter where you get split up into teams. That's stupid.

Your idea that I should be penalized in any way for grouping with other people in an MMO is laughable. Whether we drop from a HM FP or NiM Ops or a WZ that my friend didn't make it into, NO penalty should be imposed because all that would lead to is LESS people doing said activity. But...I think your real reason for wanting punishment is because you despise premades (judging by all that you've written).

I'll offer you similar advice to what you posted for #1 - "grow a pair" and start a group. You're welcome.

#4 of your "ideas" is the only one I agree with. I'd love to know if I'm joining a WZ in progress because I do solo queue probably 40-50% of the time. I think that rather than punishing quitters, the better idea would be to reward the people who stay. Not unjustly, but fairly. And the people who are fill-ins, deserve a reward as well - something like the average of the teams medals at the time seems fair. If the team has 28 medals total, I'd get 4 just for joining. This is something I'm 100% in agreement with you on.

Punishments don't work...they lead to less people doing something and encourage worse behavior by people who would have otherwise left.
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Dawncatcher's Avatar


Dawncatcher
03.27.2013 , 12:00 PM | #305
Quote: Originally Posted by SuperGrunt View Post
Adding a debuff where you would be prevented from joining a WZ again for X minutes would not be anyone telling you what to, or not to do. It would simply be adding some consequence for you rage quitting a WZ. As I said in a earlier post in another MMO with larger groups where this wouldn't be such a problem there is still a debuff for leaving a PVP match, as is there in most other MMOs.

With the small size of groups in WZs in this game, 1 person leaving can swing a winning WZ into a losing WZ.

The problem here though isn't the rare, "Oh crap family aggro I gotta go," moments. I don't complain when I back fill a winning WZ. It's the "Oh well, we're losing, and I feel entitled to win, BYE!" ones that are the problem. You aren't entitled to anything other than life liberty and the pursuit of happiness in the US. You winning a WZ would be the end goal of that pursuit of happiness, but notice I said pursuit, not happiness. Winning a WZ might be happiness, but happiness isn't the right we where promised, it's the pursuit of happiness. Meaning you have to work for that happiness.
It isn't Bioware's responsibility to enforce consequences for poor gameplay decisions. In ops, Bioware doesn't stop you from doing hardmodes in Recruit gear; ops leaders refuse to invite you. If you really think you can do it in Recruit gear, you are free to start your own group and try to find people willing to test your theory with you. Bioware doesn't stop you with a screen saying "sorry, you aren't allowed here" if you try to run through an opposite faction city with defenders 25 levels above you on your way to a datacron; you should not however be surprised if your character dies in the attempt. And possibly makes it through after a medical probe or two. Bioware doesn't prevent sentinels from entering heroic areas after they deliberately try to out-aggro the tank; their group-mates may lose patience with them.

Yes, of course there's a huge difference between "my family needs me" and "I don't want to lose, bye". And yes, the people who leave far too late in the match for a backfiller to get even one medal are really annoying. (That late in the match, if you do genuinely have to go take care of family, please do just go AFK.) But it's not really a distinction you can ever expect a computer to make, aside from perhaps looking at how far into the match the person quit, but even then, a computer could never tell as well as a person. Which is another reason those sorts of judgement calls should be left to raid leaders, not computer servers. And a diversity of raid leaders allows for a wide variety of viewpoints on the matter to be represented.

And legal rights really have nothing to do with this, aside from legal rights not to be literally forced to do anything you don't want so long as you aren't under arrest by the police (pressured, yes, gun to your head, no), and to spend your own money as you choose (post-taxes). Which I don't think anyone is disputing, as no one has suggested any consequences of a legal nature.

I've never disagreed that one person leaving can swing the balance, turning a win into a loss. But it's besides the point. For one thing, in the grand scheme of things, whether it's a win or a loss has no impact on anyone's real life; failure to pay attention to one's family does. For another, many of the same people who do quit for all the wrong reasons have already declared that they would game the system, going semi-AFK and putting in just enough effort to stop any AFK detection methods from working. Better that they just quit early on rather than gaming the system or sitting there complaining about how we have no chance and demoralizing the rest of the group. Which is fine if the match is just about over anyway, but not so great early on, only a minute or so in when a backfiller would still have plenty of time to get medals and turn the match around. So any computer-imposed debuff should a) be sensitive to how far into a match the person quit (big difference between quitting a minute in, or before the match has even started, and 30 seconds before the end) b) never exceed 5 minutes, to reduce collateral against people who left to take care of family or simply have a faulty internet and c) the match you just left should be exempted (so you can backfill into your own slot after a disconnect).

Kubernetic's Avatar


Kubernetic
03.27.2013 , 12:07 PM | #306
Quote: Originally Posted by DarkSaberMaster View Post
Lol. People are still posting even after the devs said nothing is going to happen? Lol. This is too funny.
They can choose as they wish, and I'll govern myself accordingly.

But there are other games coming that fix all of the problems with SWTOR's PVP. I'd rather do my PVP here in Star Wars, but every time I see quitters bolt from a warzone 30 seconds in, that becomes a little less possible.

Besides, they said they WERE looking at part of it, so IMHO, the story isn't over on this yet.
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SuperGrunt's Avatar


SuperGrunt
03.27.2013 , 12:09 PM | #307
Quote: Originally Posted by TUXs View Post
Actually, having work to do shut me up, not you or your comments.

I brought up "premades" as a reason I leave, hence my desire for not having a debuff, so I was 100% on-topic. I don't quit when I'm losing, but I do play this MMO (any MMO) to be with the people I want to play with. Removing my ability to group up in an MMO makes this more like a console shooter where you get split up into teams. That's stupid.

Your idea that I should be penalized in any way for grouping with other people in an MMO is laughable. Whether we drop from a HM FP or NiM Ops or a WZ that my friend didn't make it into, NO penalty should be imposed because all that would lead to is LESS people doing said activity. But...I think your real reason for wanting punishment is because you despise premades (judging by all that you've written).

I'll offer you similar advice to what you posted for #1 - "grow a pair" and start a group. You're welcome.

#4 of your "ideas" is the only one I agree with. I'd love to know if I'm joining a WZ in progress because I do solo queue probably 40-50% of the time. I think that rather than punishing quitters, the better idea would be to reward the people who stay. Not unjustly, but fairly. And the people who are fill-ins, deserve a reward as well - something like the average of the teams medals at the time seems fair. If the team has 28 medals total, I'd get 4 just for joining. This is something I'm 100% in agreement with you on.

Punishments don't work...they lead to less people doing something and encourage worse behavior by people who would have otherwise left.
Considering I only just yesterday finally got rid of my last Recruit piece and have more than my fair share of wins under my belt, assuming that 50% of the people in a WZ have to lose. I don't think I need your advice that I should form/join a group. When I do join a group for PVP it's for Ranked WZs only. I don't feel that Pre-mades have any place in our unranked WZs. So I guess I have more of a pair than you do, because I quite often get into WZs against Pre-mades, and I don't leave just because I am losing, I leave because the WZ has ended. I don't state things that I don't follow.

Your idea that you shouldn't be punished for punishing other people for being randomly grouped with someone who decides to leave is ridiculous. You choose to accept a Queue as soon as it pops and then leave b/c one or more of your group members didn't make it into the WZ, sorry but you should accept the consequences, or not accept the queue pop. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to know that if you get a debuff for leaving a WZ that you wouldn't get it if you didn't go into the WZ.
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Kubernetic's Avatar


Kubernetic
03.27.2013 , 12:12 PM | #308
Quote: Originally Posted by sanchito View Post
What they should implement most urgently, in my opinion, is if a certain amount of people have quit a warzone stop backfilling and end it right there. There is no point in playing it to the end anyway in this scenario, so everyone can move on to the next one and hope for better luck there
Just freeze an equal number of players on the opposing team until the other team has its back-filled members entering the warzone.

Fixes all of the problems. A few players on the other team get frozen for a minute or two, but hey, those are the breaks. If we're honestly pretending that warzones are at all equitable and that it's supposed to be possible for a team to win, then a few heads are going to get knocked one way or another.

If we ABSOLUTELY MUST refrain from debuffing any player for leaving a warzone, then it's time to equalize the warzone in another manner.... freeze members of the opposing team for the time necessary until the match is on equal footing again.

Done!
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Dawncatcher's Avatar


Dawncatcher
03.27.2013 , 12:13 PM | #309
Quote: Originally Posted by SuperGrunt View Post
The Terms of Service are not a shield to protect you. They are there to establish rules under which you can be punished outside of the game. IE Not just a slight debuff for being a total jerk and saying, "F everyone else, I helped you lose and don't care, bye."
The Terms of Service are the limit of what Bioware should get involved in. A computer server cannot tell if some said, "Goodbye, I can't stand to lose, but I only decided this 30 seconds before the end of the match, and I don't care about the poor backfiller who will join and not get a single medal," or "My wife is shouting! Bye!" Computers cannot tell if people are being jerks; that is for other people to attempt to determine. Hence why you should just make a pre-made and discuss in advance what your reliability expectations are.

And I doubt Bioware has ever sued a customer or otherwise punished them "outside the game". What happens in SWTOR stays in SWTOR, for the most part. Perhaps at most you might get a silence from speaking in chat channels or a ban. But they're not going to come after you and sue you, or at least I doubt it. If someone else wanted to sue you, Bioware might give them your information, but only in response to a legal subpoena; but generally people just ignore list you rather than resorting to that sort of thing.

Dawncatcher's Avatar


Dawncatcher
03.27.2013 , 12:18 PM | #310
Quote: Originally Posted by Kubernetic View Post
Just freeze an equal number of players on the opposing team until the other team has its back-filled members entering the warzone.

Fixes all of the problems. A few players on the other team get frozen for a minute or two, but hey, those are the breaks. If we're honestly pretending that warzones are at all equitable and that it's supposed to be possible for a team to win, then a few heads are going to get knocked one way or another.

If we ABSOLUTELY MUST refrain from debuffing any player for leaving a warzone, then it's time to equalize the warzone in another manner.... freeze members of the opposing team for the time necessary until the match is on equal footing again.

Done!
How many medals per minute does the frozen player earn while frozen? What if they get frozen right when they're about to get their first killing blow, or are in the middle of a 1v1 fight over a node, or are in the middle of planting a bomb in Voidstar? Have you really thought this through?