I'm looking for some advice on what is generally considered to be the optimal relic set for a PvE Anni Marauder. I currently have on-use Campaign power relic and the Plasma Burst Device (on-hit elemental damage). I'm considering swapping out the Plasma Burst Device for a Matrix Cube in favor of raw stats, but curious about what everyone else prefers.

My current Strength is at 2060ish and Power is 680ish. Thanks!

Get the pvp relics and augment them.

Battlemaster relic has 103 power

War Hero has 113 power.

I hate pvp, so I just did enough to get the Battlemaster ones @ 500 comms each. (or is it 550?)

Also, I would say you have too much STR,

You're at the point where Power will give you a lot more damage.. try swapping out a STR augment for a Power augment and see the difference in your Primary max damage, and bonus damage.

My STR fully buffed and stimmed is 1885, and my force bonus damage is 951,melee bonus dmg is 680-ish.

Primary weapon max dmg is 1070.

33% crit, and 77% crit multiplier.

1024 power.

Keep your Strength augments. Power will not give you a "lot more damage" in practice, despite the slightly higher damage figures on your character sheet.

Either get two War Hero Boundless Ages relics, or one plus the Campaign proc relic.

Keep your Strength augments. Power will not give you a "lot more damage" in practice, despite the slightly higher damage figures on your character sheet..

Heck yes it does,I've parsed a ton of fights, and power is a bigger factor in overall damage for Annihilation Marauder.

Heck yes it does,I've parsed a ton of fights, and power is a bigger factor in overall damage for Annihilation Marauder.

If you're got repeated dummy parses with a set of Strength augments and a set of Power augments showing consistently higher DPS with the Power ones, I will certainly concede the point.

Thanks for derailing my thread and turning it into yet another Strength vs. Power argument.

You're welcome. Anyway, BiS is either 2x War Hero Boundless Ages relics or War Hero + Campaign internal proc relic. You'd have to test to be sure, but I suspect they'll be extremely close at any rate.

In regards to trinkets, the proc trinket actually parses (unfortunately) about 30 dps lower than the Matrix cube. I'd suggest using 2x power trinkets if you're not in the habit of utilizing an on-use power trinket. The net loss between using 2x power trinkets vs 1 power + 1 on-use power trinket is ~10 dps (but that was without using bloodthirst or power adrenals). Long story short:

2x War Hero Boundless Ages relics

In regards to Strength vs. Power, The math is there. I'm rounding down, but Power (4:1) has a lower coefficient than Strength (5:1) in regards to +damage. However, if you need/want to maintain +crit on certain pieces, then I'd suggest using a Might augment instead of an Overkill augment.

While I agree that Power > Strength seems counterintuitive, Marauders don't have a +strength talent which would increase strength's overall value, whereas Juggernauts do possess such a talent and the argument becomes less black and white.

Actually, even without a mainstat boosting talent, Strength is going to have a higher DPS increase than Power, point for point.

LagunaD posted a helpful explanation here.

You're welcome. Anyway, BiS is either 2x War Hero Boundless Ages relics or War Hero + Campaign internal proc relic. You'd have to test to be sure, but I suspect they'll be extremely close at any rate.

I actually parsed on a dummy hitting like an idiot for 20 minutes, 4 times 5 minutes and your suspicion is right.

I was parsing higher with the proc trinket than with a +100 power relic (the recruit one, I didn't have warhero one yet).

However, the difference (less than 2%) were not significant enough to decide if either of them were better, I would suspect they parse consistantly the same result (minus crit and other lucky shots) and I would have had to run 50 parses for each trinket to define a winner.

In regards to Strength vs. Power, The math is there. I'm rounding down, but Power (4:1) has a lower coefficient than Strength (5:1) in regards to +damage. However, if you need/want to maintain +crit on certain pieces, then I'd suggest using a Might augment instead of an Overkill augment.

1strength = 0.2 bonus damage, 1 power = 0.23.

We are not even in a 4:1 figure, it's a 9:2 there

However we agree, the crit increases makes up for the loss of pure power.

In regards to trinkets, the proc trinket actually parses (unfortunately) about 30 dps lower than the Matrix cube. I'd suggest using 2x power trinkets if you're not in the habit of utilizing an on-use power trinket. The net loss between using 2x power trinkets vs 1 power + 1 on-use power trinket is ~10 dps (but that was without using bloodthirst or power adrenals).

So I'd started this post to say "I don't get how the difference can be that big" specifically in regards to the Matrix cube vs. proc relic.

Then I did a bunch of math.

Then I checked my combat logs, and realized that I'd made a mistaken assumption.

That mistaken assumption is that the proc relic always does its listed damage.

It does not.

Then I did some more math, and my original comment came back around (it shouldn't be a 30 DPS difference, perhaps half that on a good day), but the overall premise of Matrix cube > Proc relic does seem to hold water, though by a nearly insignificant margin (1% difference in total DPS or less).

To shorten this up, the remainder is stuffed into spoilers.

Spoiler 1: How Proc Relics Actually Work, and some DPS Assumptions

Spoiler 2: Math For Matrix Cube, and Assumptions on DPS Impact

TL;DR for the lazy:

The proc relic does more DPS than you would calculate directly from the listed tooltip damage.

The Matrix Cube should generally (some assumption here!) do slightly more DPS than a proc relic, however the DPS increase is likely to be in the 0-15 range under the vast majority of scenarios.

Independent of all this, the "real" right answer should be 2x augmented PVP power relics. The impact of the 27 crit rating on the cube contributes less to overall DPS than the additional power on the PVP relics.

Actually, even without a mainstat boosting talent, Strength is going to have a higher DPS increase than Power, point for point.

 

LagunaD posted a helpful explanation here.

I'm by no means going to suggest that my grasp of mathematics is on par with the gentlemen in the link you provided, Aurojiin, but I appreciate the time they took in deriving solutions from their data, and the time you took in providing a response and the link. I read it, so thank you.

However, my math is much more simple and colors my interpretation of the numbers.

I'll refer to a wishlist I made before War Hero Relics were provided with the current stats they possess.

I will take the raw number (Strength and then Power) and assert that it equals the bonus damage, with the variable being the relationship between the two.

Strength:

1885.8 = 377.2x

1885.8 / 377.2

x = 4.9978 or x = 5

Power:

918 = 211y

918 / 211

y = 4.35 or y = 4

These numbers, albeit basic, suggest that my Power is greater than Strength comment to be true. Granted, you will -always- have more strength then power, yet using the assumption that both values increase linearly, then my basic equation describes the relationship of each stat in relation to +bonus damage adequately enough for me.

Cheers!

 

TL;DR for the lazy:

The proc relic does more DPS than you would calculate directly from the listed tooltip damage.

 

The Matrix Cube should generally (some assumption here!) do slightly more DPS than a proc relic, however the DPS increase is likely to be in the 0-15 range under the vast majority of scenarios.

 

Independent of all this, the "real" right answer should be 2x augmented PVP power relics. The impact of the 27 crit rating on the cube contributes less to overall DPS than the additional power on the PVP relics.

The point I was making is that the Campaign Proc Relic was inferior to an inferior Matrix Cube Relic (the newer, updated one), and therefore the proc relic could not be considered BiS when an inferior matrix cube was parsing better.

I appreciate the time you took in forming the quantitative datas to better illustrate my earlier posting!

I'm by no means going to suggest that my grasp of mathematics is on par with the gentlemen in the link you provided, Aurojiin, but I appreciate the time they took in deriving solutions from their data, and the time you took in providing a response and the link. I read it, so thank you.

 

However, my math is much more simple and colors my interpretation of the numbers.

I'll refer to a wishlist I made before War Hero Relics were provided with the current stats they possess.

I will take the raw number (Strength and then Power) and assert that it equals the bonus damage, with the variable being the relationship between the two.

 

Strength:

1885.8 = 377.2x

1885.8 / 377.2

x = 4.9978 or x = 5

 

Power:

918 = 211y

918 / 211

y = 4.35 or y = 4

 

These numbers, albeit basic, suggest that my Power is greater than Strength comment to be true. Granted, you will -always- have more strength then power, yet using the assumption that both values increase linearly, then my basic equation describes the relationship of each stat in relation to +bonus damage adequately enough for me.

Cheers!

The Main stat = .2 (.21 w/ Sorc/Sage buff) damage and Power = .23 damage has been pretty well hashed out (918 x .23 = 211.14). A higher number is worse, so rounding down to 4 is inflating the benefit of Power fairly significantly.

Granted, you will -always- have more strength then power, yet using the assumption that both values increase linearly, then my basic equation describes the relationship of each stat in relation to +bonus damage adequately enough for me.

Yes, but no one is arguing against the premise that Power has higher bonus damage than Strength. The point, though, is that the added crit chance increases your DPS by more than the additional bonus damage, as is mathematically demonstrable.

exactly and one has to consider that even though the damage gain of both power and strength is consisstent in number.

the amount of damage of the attacks to which they are added increases.

therefore the effect of those relatively to the already existing damage decreases (100+1 =1% vs 1000+1= 0.1%)

the damage you get from crits increase by both the crit chance and the already existing base damage

(100 damage with 30% critchance and 1.75 multiplier-> +53 extra damage= 53% )

(1000 damage with 30% critchance and 1.75 multiplier-> +530 extra damage= 53%)

so the higher the damage of your attacks the higher becomes the effect of crit vs a static damage increase of power

example:

my rapid shot does 1100 max damage in tooltip.

i increase my attack power now by 37 points -> the damage increases to 1109

i increase it by a further 37 points -> damage increase to 1118 (+9 again so the boost is in fact static)

now let us assume i have 35% crit chance and 1.75% multiplier.

the average damage dealt would be 1109+(1109 x0.35x 1.75) = 1788.26

now i replace the +37 power with 37 crit rating points (let us assume that i have already 300 crit-rating so let's take the average crit gain from 300-350 http://www.jedilace.com/2012/02/ )

that would translate into +0.0278% per point -> +1.029%

no let's do the same math again but this time with 36.03% critchance and 1100 base damage:

1100+(1100x 0.3603x 1.75)= 1793

so in that simplified scenario my dps would increase from 1788 to 1793 when taking crit rating instead of power.

Thanks for derailing my thread and turning it into yet another Strength vs. Power argument.

I think you've done a good thing here by promoting discussion!

Yes, but no one is arguing against the premise that Power has higher bonus damage than Strength. The point, though, is that the added crit chance increases your DPS by more than the additional bonus damage, as is mathematically demonstrable.

I don't discount your point in that Strength increases critical chance, that is an obvious point (I hope) that no one disagrees with (myself included). However, it has been described to me that 50% critical chance is the cap for critical chance, whereby obtaining anymore would be a pointless endeavor on my part and a misappropriation of stat weights. Operating under this assumption as being true, a marauder's particular spec influences their choices in the requisite mods and enhancements.

In other words, concerning the variances in specs, as being Anni spec, my melee critical chance goal is 30% raid buffed. So the net return on critical chance diminishes for my particular spec after 30%, whereby making strength augments less valuable to my overall performance than power augments.

Assuming all things being equal, if my melee critical chance is 30%, with the Malice talent from the rage tree, my force critical chance is then 36%. I then add the Juyo Form modifier of 15% (from 5 stacks of Juyo Form) to reach 51% critical chance with my bleed effects. Considering then that 40% of Anni damage comes from bleeds, I have reached the critical chance threshold on which my Anni spec will allow without diminishing returns, and therefore misappropriating stat weights.

If I were say Carnage or Rage spec, I would have to change my stat weights and thus be inclined to subscribe to the linear logic of Critical chance increases my damage.

TL : DR

Strength not only increases bonus damage, but also critical strike chance - something we all (should) know. However, when considering which spec you are running with, valuing crit over bonus damage would be negligent on the part of the player.

The Main stat = .2 (.21 w/ Sorc/Sage buff) damage and Power = .23 damage has been pretty well hashed out (918 x .23 = 211.14). A higher number is worse, so rounding down to 4 is inflating the benefit of Power fairly significantly.

The values are actually one in the same. The .2 versus .23 is attaching a % value, whereby stating that 20% of Strength and 23% of Power equals bonus damage and nothing more.

My equation breaks it down via a ratio, whereby stating (very simply) that, "For every 5 points of Strength, I gain 1 point of bonus damage" and "For every 4 points of Power, I gain 1 point of bonus damage."

Granted, I rounded my numbers for the sake of simplicity, yet the math still shows the actual value of 4.99 for Strength and 4.35 for Power - I didn't neglect the numbers, I presented both. Again, as aforementioned earlier, I rounded up and down for the sake of simplicity, it doesn't degrade the value of the conclusions in doing so.

Simply put, 20% (or 1/5) of ones main stat equals bonus damage, which is the same as what my ratio equation (5:1) states. Moreover, i could make the addendum to the (4:1) Power ratio for the sake of accuracy in saying its a (4.35:1) ratio, but it just looked more aesthetically pleasing with a nice, round number.

In other words, both are correct, it's just 2 different ways of looking at the same thing.

Simply put, 20% (or 1/5) of ones main stat equals bonus damage, which is the same as what my ratio equation (5:1) states. Moreover, i could make the addendum to the (4:1) Power ratio for the sake of accuracy in saying its a (4.35:1) ratio, but it just looked more aesthetically pleasing with a nice, round number.

 

In other words, both are correct, it's just 2 different ways of looking at the same thing.

Not really. Because your numbers inflate the difference between Str and Power. Using .21 and .23, you see that Power has 10% more bonus damage than Str. Using 5:1 and 4:1 implies that Power is 20% better.

Not really. Because your numbers inflate the difference between Str and Power. Using .21 and .23, you see that Power has 10% more bonus damage than Str. Using 5:1 and 4:1 implies that Power is 20% better.

Yarly!

Allow me to correct the logic by clarifying that, in your current interpretation of my rounded numbers, using the 5:1 and 4:1 ratios (since 5:1 is 20%, and 4:1 is 25%), im saying that Power is 5% better - when in fact its closer to 2%. But now we're just splitting hairs

Read thoroughly and not just what you want to read, I made the adjustment as per your point in the "fairness" of my numbers, whereby making the power ratio addendum to a 4.35:1 instead of 4:1.. where 4.35:1 is the same as saying 23% (or .23), just a different way in looking @ the same thing; they will both equal (roughly) the same number when applied correctly.

Yet after all this, I already provided the numbers much earlier in my previous post(s), you simply read what you wanted to and disregarded the rest

Hopefully we're on the same page now.

I don't discount your point in that Strength increases critical chance, that is an obvious point (I hope) that no one disagrees with (myself included). However, it has been described to me that 50% critical chance is the cap for critical chance, whereby obtaining anymore would be a pointless endeavor on my part and a misappropriation of stat weights. Operating under this assumption as being true, a marauder's particular spec influences their choices in the requisite mods and enhancements.

 

In other words, concerning the variances in specs, as being Anni spec, my melee critical chance goal is 30% raid buffed. So the net return on critical chance diminishes for my particular spec after 30%, whereby making strength augments less valuable to my overall performance than power augments.

 

Assuming all things being equal, if my melee critical chance is 30%, with the Malice talent from the rage tree, my force critical chance is then 36%. I then add the Juyo Form modifier of 15% (from 5 stacks of Juyo Form) to reach 51% critical chance with my bleed effects. Considering then that 40% of Anni damage comes from bleeds, I have reached the critical chance threshold on which my Anni spec will allow without diminishing returns, and therefore misappropriating stat weights.

 

If I were say Carnage or Rage spec, I would have to change my stat weights and thus be inclined to subscribe to the linear logic of Critical chance increases my damage.

 

TL : DR

 

Strength not only increases bonus damage, but also critical strike chance - something we all (should) know. However, when considering which spec you are running with, valuing crit over bonus damage would be negligent on the part of the player.

from what i understood you are assuming that no matter how high your buffs/abilities or stats are your crit chance will be 'hard capped' at 50% and therefore you will not gain the +15% of the juyo form bonus crits when your have above 35% critchance already

you realize that this would make feats like recklessness (http://www.torhead.com/ability/cAzQA13/recklessness) that increase assasin's/sorcs force crti chance by 60%, illogical by definition. and also explosive fuels of powertech will tell you otherwise since they crit more then 50% (more like 75% with pvp set) with their rail shot when it is active (with explosive fuels you can can actually see your crit chance got to 60% + even in your sheet).

what i think your friend meant by crit chance having a 'cap' at 50% is that if you take the 5% base chance +5% sniper buff you cannot get higher then 50% with the bonus from mainstat and crit rating (since 1500 points of crit rating give +27% and 2000 mainstat +12% a total of 49%)

Yarly!

 

Allow me to correct the logic by clarifying that, in your current interpretation of my rounded numbers, using the 5:1 and 4:1 ratios (since 5:1 is 20%, and 4:1 is 25%), im saying that Power is 5% better - when in fact its closer to 2%. But now we're just splitting hairs

 

Read thoroughly and not just what you want to read, I made the adjustment as per your point in the "fairness" of my numbers, whereby making the power ratio addendum to a 4.35:1 instead of 4:1.. where 4.35:1 is the same as saying 23% (or .23), just a different way in looking @ the same thing; they will both equal (roughly) the same number when applied correctly.

 

Yet after all this, I already provided the numbers much earlier in my previous post(s), you simply read what you wanted to and disregarded the rest

 

Hopefully we're on the same page now.

Please stop telling me to read more closely, when you are still making the same mistakes.

In relation to each other, which is the relevant point, 4:1 is 20% better than 5:1 ( or 5:1 is 25% worse, if you'd rather look at it that way), when in fact the difference in value is much lower than that.

Just use the .20 (.21 w/ Sorc/Sage buff) and .23 actual values rather than misleading estimates, and you won't have that problem.

However, it has been described to me that 50% critical chance is the cap for critical chance, whereby obtaining anymore would be a pointless endeavor on my part and a misappropriation of stat weights. Operating under this assumption as being true, a marauder's particular spec influences their choices in the requisite mods and enhancements.

Unfortunately this is incorrect. The only real critical cap is 100% (for obvious reasons). Besides that, critical chance is just the 5% base, plus bonuses/buffs/talents, plus up to 30% from critical rating and 30% from your main stat. Of course, both critical rating and mainstat crit asymptotically approach their limit, so they will never actually reach it. DR is so strong on critical rating that you won't see far beyond 12% in practice, and while DR is low on your mainstat, you're limited by the available amount from current gearing levels.

There's certainly no 50% total crit chance limit, and no matter what you're not getting anywhere remotely near the 85% force crit chance needed to cap bleed crits. Thus, the added crit chance from Strength will apply its full benefit, generally eclipsing the higher bonus damage of Power.

what i think your friend meant by crit chance having a 'cap' at 50% is that if you take the 5% base chance +5% sniper buff you cannot get higher then 50% with the bonus from mainstat and crit rating (since 1500 points of crit rating give +27% and 2000 mainstat +12% a total of 49%)

Thanks for the clarification. This is probably what the individual tried to relate to me without going into too much detail - which is not to say you went into too much detail - but rather you went to great lengths to clarify a very simple assumption I made based on the information available at the time. So thank you sir!

Please stop telling me to read more closely, when you are still making the same mistakes.

 

In relation to each other, which is the relevant point, 4:1 is 20% better than 5:1 ( or 5:1 is 25% worse, if you'd rather look at it that way), when in fact the difference in value is much lower than that.

 

Just use the .20 (.21 w/ Sorc/Sage buff) and .23 actual values rather than misleading estimates, and you won't have that problem.

Strength:

1885.8 = 377.2x

1885.8 / 377.2

x = 4.9978 or x = 5

377.2 x 5 = 1886

1885.8 x .2 = 377.16 or 377.2

Power:

918 = 211y

918 / 211

y = 4.35 or y = 4

211 x 4.35 = 917.85 or 918

918 x .23 = 211.14 or 211

Again, two different sides of looking @ the same thing, just that each equation is solving for a different variance on the numbers provided.

Unfortunately this is incorrect...

There's certainly no 50% total crit chance limit, and no matter what you're not getting anywhere remotely near the 85% force crit chance needed to cap bleed crits. Thus, the added crit chance from Strength will apply its full benefit, generally eclipsing the higher bonus damage of Power.

Again, I do not discount the linear logic of more crit equals more white damage dps, but considering the fact that we have a limited budget in which to allocate secondary stats, I would find it remiss to then just say "alls i needs is strengths to increase my deeps" when in fact this is not the case.

What I said earlier, and i still maintain, is that on pieces of gear in which you need to maintain +critical chance, then augmenting strength would maximize your overall return; yet when maintaining power on a certain piece, it would make more sense in maximizing the overall return in using a power augment over strength when critical isn't your focus on that piece of equipment.

Strength influences the frequency of criticals to occur, yet Power influences the overall number in which the ability crits for - moreso than Strength.

What I think all of us can agree on is that all classes have a "goal" in which they work towards when optimizing gear in the constraints given to us with what is available. However, to just say Strength is greater than Power (or the opposite) is a foley - find that balance in which you're comfortable with concerning your particular spec.