To my eye the problem isn't that biochem is too good, it's that biochem is the only crafting skill that actually gives some sort of worthwhile advantage...which of course all crew skills should have.

Define "worthwhile advantage". All the tradeskills pretty much serve their function. (though perhaps could do so a little better at "end game") You can make money on them by selling what you make to other people. Also experience the pride of seeing other people use stuff you made. However only one of them offers a significant combat advantage. Which NONE of them should have.

If Biochem was removed tomorrow entirely, I'm not sure I'd even bother leveling crew skills unless I was bored.

Which is fine. Good even. Tradeskills work best for the economy when not everybody has them. You need far more consumers than producers. If you aren't making stuff to sell (or planning to make stuff to sell) you shouldn't be doing it.

The solution isn't to nerf the one crew skill they actually made worthwhile, the solution is to make them all worthwhile.

They are all worthwhile. Just that only 1 of them is worthwhile to "non crafters". None of them should be worthwhile to "non crafters". You see biochem as the only working crewskill because it offers a combat advantage. I see it as the only broken crewskill because it offers a combat advantage. Tradeskills shouldn't offer a combat advantage. They should be about trade. You should be able to buy everything tradeskills have to offer.

Right now, biochem is the only crafting skill that is valuable to have for most people.

Before we nerf it to the point where that has no value as well, let's see what they do to improve other crafting skills.

I'd rather see other crafting skills have an equal appeal as biochem (maybe some day I can switch back to armsmaking!) than have every crafting skill be more or less useless farm-fests.

... You see biochem as the only working crewskill because it offers a combat advantage. I see it as the only broken crewskill because it offers a combat advantage. Tradeskills shouldn't offer a combat advantage. They should be about trade. You should be able to buy everything tradeskills have to offer.

How exactly does biochem offer a combat advantage? Every rakata reusable item has a more powerful, boe counterpart that anyone can use.

Biochem offers a credit savings by not having to purchase said items and because of those credit savings the items you are using are LESS powerful than the items that everyone in the game has access to.

So please tell me where the combat advantage that biochem has is.

However only one of them offers a significant combat advantage. Which NONE of them should have.

Incorrect. This was the case a few patches ago when Rakata stims had more stats than normal stims. Post change, Rakata is actually inferior to the top tier BoE consumables.

Taking full advantage of your "crew skill perk" as a Biochemist is a combat disadvantage not the other way around.

Incorrect. This was the case a few patches ago when Rakata stims had more stats than normal stims. Post change, Rakata is actually inferior to the top tier BoE consumables.

 

Taking full advantage of your "crew skill perk" as a Biochemist is a combat disadvantage not the other way around.

Incorrect.

Biochem still have medpacks better than anything else non-biochem can get, you still have reusable adrenals and you still have best-in-stock stims for best price.

Not even saying about craftable purple lvl50 implants which can crit for augment slot.

Biochem has no disadvantages mate. Don't try to twist facts just to avoid something that needs to be done:

Reusable consumables need to disappear.

(heck, even the name of them is a contradiction all by itself)

Don't you just love it when those "BioChem has no advantage" people concentrate on the stims, and ignore the reuseable adrenals/medpacks, which is naturally where the problem actually lies? As a biochem, I don't even bother RE'ing to learn the reuseable stims. I'll only go through maybe 5 or 6 of them by the time I get to the next level of them. Healing and adrenals? Heck yeah.

It is not financially feasible for non-biochems to use adrenals/ (and medpacks) the way biochems can. Not even close. There is no possible way for the savings on adrenals (and medpacks) to be offset by sales other crewskills could make.

Now sure, they could fix this by making a "craft" of adrenals/medpacks drop out 99 of them or something. They could also simply remove the reuseable ones or remove the biochem skill restriction on them.

And if, as people are saying, the reusable things are worthless/no big deal?

Then why are certain people concerned by the thought of them either being removed or the biochem restriction removed?

Incorrect.

Biochem still have medpacks better than anything else non-biochem can get, you still have reusable adrenals and you still have best-in-stock stims for best price.

Not even saying about craftable purple lvl50 implants which can crit for augment slot.

 

 

Biochem has no disadvantages mate. Don't try to twist facts just to avoid something that needs to be done:

 

Reusable consumables need to disappear.

(heck, even the name of them is a contradiction all by itself)

If Biochem's best medpacks are BoP still then they would need to adjust those to be in line (I don't have a biochemist and just assumed the top tier medpacks were nerfed too)

To rephrase, the comment about a disadvantage is reminding you all (since you seem to constantly forget) that Rakata stims/adrenals give less stats than their top tier BoE counterparts. Which makes it silly to say there's a "combat advantage" when anyone can get the exact same quality of stim/adrenal or better themselves regardless of crew skill.

It is not financially feasible for non-biochems to use adrenals/ (and medpacks) the way biochems can. Not even close. There is no possible way for the savings on adrenals (and medpacks) to be offset by sales other crewskills could make.

So the truth comes out. It's not a matter of worrying over a "combat advantage" that doesn't actually exist. You just don't want to spend credits.

Then why are certain people concerned by the thought of them either being removed or the biochem restriction removed?

Uhh... This has been answered several times already, but again: Because it fundamentally changes the way the crew skill functions (funny people here are whining about how trade skills should be about trading only, but also want to screw with the way we operate as a trade skill) and messes with the market, nevermind inflation. And because in general, there's no real reason to make the change anyways, and fundamentally restructuring things on a whimsy is poor design.

I have 8 characters on one server. I'm running each craft. I did not switch everybody to biochem. It's really nice for PVE and leveling and yes, I'm typically stimmed up more because it costs nothing for the biochem character, but at endgame I would switch to blues for the boosted performance and in PVP it doesn't really help you for heals. Quite frankly, I don't find any of the crew skills useless. I can see why Biochem is popular for the convenience-factor but as far as being more competitive, I don't see what it does there.

 

At end-game the make-stuff skills are only going to be good for selling things. End-game is end-game. Once you have everything you want, you can either keep expanding your fortune, or making stuff for new characters. Or you can switch to Biotech for the convenience and then QQ royally when new schems for other items become available forcing you to reset your crew skill again.

 

Or you can... wait for it... PLAY MORE THAN ONE CHARACTER and gain some freaking perspective. But seriously, when you're at 50, and you have the gear you want for you and all your companions, what is it crew skills are supposed to do for you before a content expansion?

This is all you need to know and understand about crew skills in general, so I fully agree. Support your guilds.friends if you're not into alting. If you are alting and are working on each adv class towards lvl 50, you'll have so much excess gathering crew skills of your choice. You dig biochem and need tons of mats? Put bio on each class if youd like, all that's holding you back is creds and even more creds, considering you'd want to pump up the affection of all your companions all over again to max.

Ow don't forget that certain classes have craft crits with their companions.

This goes for every craft not just biochem.

Incorrect.

Biochem still have medpacks better than anything else non-biochem can get, you still have reusable adrenals and you still have best-in-stock stims for best price.

Not even saying about craftable purple lvl50 implants which can crit for augment slot.

 

 

Biochem has no disadvantages mate. Don't try to twist facts just to avoid something that needs to be done:

 

Reusable consumables need to disappear.

(heck, even the name of them is a contradiction all by itself)

I'll link the items for you so that you can compare them:

Biochem resuables (only usable by 400 biochem):

Medpack- heals 3750-4575 gives +15% max health for 15 sec http://www.torhead.com/schematic/fPfMQdp/rakata-medpac

Adrenal- 475 secondary stat for 15s http://www.torhead.com/schematic/gJRz4Ai/rakata-attack-adrenal

Stim- 112 main stat / 46 escondary stat http://www.torhead.com/schematic/7e4VdBG/rakata-resolve-stim

Biochem BOE's (usable by anyone):

Medpack- heals 3750-4575 + 1665 over 15 sec http://www.torhead.com/schematic/9Zadcx7/prototype-ultimate-medpac (note this is not even exotech quality, it is a RE lvl 48)

Adrenal- 535 secondary stat for 15s http://www.torhead.com/schematic/eZf2oYp/exotech-attack-adrenal

Stim- 128 main stat / 52 secondary stat http://www.torhead.com/schematic/eZf2oYp/exotech-attack-adrenal

So again, where is the combat advantage that Biochem has? If you want to argue about credit saving/making potential, that is a different discussion.

So again, where is the combat advantage that Biochem has? If you want to argue about credit saving/making potential, that is a different discussion.

When the credit saving potential is so incredibly disproportionate, it becomes a combat advantage. My biochem can stay adrenalled/medkitted pretty much 24/7 with no worries. Any other character of my characters, regardless of which crewskill they are choosing to follow, or even any other means of making profit, will go bankrupt in a flash trying that unless they *severely* decrease the per unit manufacturing cost of said adrenals/medpacks.

So again, dramatically increase the yield of adrenals/medpacks (at all levels, not just exotech), remove the reuseables, or remove the biochem restriction on the reuseables. 1 of those three needs to happen.

And, from what I remember, it's only at 50 that consumeable adrenals beat out reuseable adrenals.

And, from what I remember, it's only at 50 that consumeable adrenals beat out reuseable adrenals.

At other tiers they're equal ( equal meaning the same, and therefore also not an advantage )

So again, where is the combat advantage that Biochem has? If you want to argue about credit saving/making potential, that is a different discussion.

Due to the cost prohibitive nature of consumable stims/adrenals/medpacs, biochem people with the reusables effectively have a permanent stat boost and healing/adrenal abilities. Players without biochem could potentially be on an even playing field, but it is simply not practical to buy enough consumables to have stims for every warzone and FP, and to have medpacs/adrenals to use constantly in WZ's, FP's, and Ops whenever their cooldown is up. That would cost millions of credits per week. You'd have to be farming credits more than actually playing.

Again, because of this people without biochem won't use those consumables nearly as often. Thus, biochem in effect grants permanent abilities and stat boosts over other players. Crafting skills should not do this, at least not to a level so much in excess of all the other crafting skills.

To fix this, they should make all the normal purple reusables BoE, and then buff the rakata reusables back up and let those be BoP with a 400 biochem req. This way biochem gets about the same advantage as other crafting skills which get to make slightly better gear (eg. synth/armortech), and can also sell other reusables on the GTN. Those will be HIGHLY sought after and should be profitable to make and sell, very much so initially.

To fix this, they should make all the normal purple reusables BoE, and then buff the rakata reusables back up and let those be BoP with a 400 biochem req. This way biochem gets about the same advantage as other crafting skills which get to make slightly better gear (eg. synth/armortech),

Well, I'd actually argue those OTHER skills shouldn't have BoP stuff that give them a bonus either, and thus the rakata stuff still shouldn't have a 400 biochem req, even if they are made better (again)

Over 150 in stat points at all times for free is useless? How can one be so dumb. You can also craft items JUST LIKE EVERY OTHER PROFESSION can. Oh and there are TWO TWO TWO DID I SAY TWO slots for your crafted items. But somehow you think biochem is worse than another profession. LIKE WOW! WOWOWOWOWOW

 

EVERYONE who is not biochem right now is a F-O-O-L.

d=(^.^d) I agree with you having been a recently turned 50 S.I and already making all my reuse stims/adrenals/and medpacks

Well, I'd actually argue those OTHER skills shouldn't have BoP stuff that give them a bonus either, and thus the rakata stuff still shouldn't have a 400 biochem req, even if they are made better (again)

I agree with that 100%. I'm in full favor of no crafting skills giving any specific gameplay advantages. The whole point of crafting should be to craft, sell, and trade those items. It would all be BoE, if it were up to me. My proposal was based on the assumption that Bioware is unlikely to change all the other skills.

The problem isn't biochem is too powerful. This has never been the case. The problem is the other crewskills are essentially useless in a combat situations. Bioware should stop making Biochem more useless, they should spend their time making the other crewskills less useless.

Except crewskills SHOULD be useless in combat situations. So they need to make Biochecm more useless until it actually IS useless like the other CORRECTLY useless crewskills.

edit:

I agree with that 100%. I'm in full favor of no crafting skills giving any specific gameplay advantages. The whole point of crafting should be to craft, sell, and trade those items. It would all be BoE, if it were up to me. My proposal was based on the assumption that Bioware is unlikely to change all the other skills.

Actually not that hard, there's only a handful of items that would need changing, or simply making better stuff craftable that isn't BoP.

Except crewskills SHOULD be useless in combat situations. So they need to make Biochecm more useless until it actually IS useless like the other CORRECTLY useless crewskills.

It is only your opinion that crewskills should be useless in combat situations. That is terrible game design in that it doesn't provoke players that have no desire to create/sell items to use the system at all. Many serious end game players only use crewskills/tradeskills for their inherent combat bonuses. To make everything completely useless and you will see a great deal of the population even less motivated to waste time playing this game.

If Bioware follows your idea (which is likely unfortunately) then they might as well turn the servers off now. This isn't SWG or any other sandbox. This game is based around combat. Anything that doesn't somehow tie to combat needs reworked to do so.

In my guild those with biochem make stims/medpacs/adrenals for the people joining Ops. This is funded by a Guild Bank, plus the load is spread out across multiple members of the guild who are biochem/bioanalysis/diplomacy.

As it stands Biochem works well for our guild. Once Bioware implements crit crafting Orange armor & allowing armoring to be removed from tier gear then I personally believe that Synthweaving & Armormech will become the most in-demand skills. I mean who would not want to have the option of adding +28 to each piece of your armor? Thats a 140 stat increase... what I could do with 140 more power on my Sage... <drool>.

I recommend those that are crying nerf to biochem to please remember the game is an MMO & does not revolve around you. If you want a game that does please go and play super mario bros.

In my guild those with biochem make stims/medpacs/adrenals for the people joining Ops. This is funded by a Guild Bank, plus the load is spread out across multiple members of the guild who are biochem/bioanalysis/diplomacy.

 

As it stands Biochem works well for our guild. Once Bioware implements crit crafting Orange armor & allowing armoring to be removed from tier gear then I personally believe that Synthweaving & Armormech will become the most in-demand skills. I mean who would not want to have the option of adding +28 to each piece of your armor? Thats a 140 stat increase... what I could do with 140 more power on my Sage... <drool>.

 

I recommend those that are crying nerf to biochem to please remember the game is an MMO & does not revolve around you. If you want a game that does please go and play super mario bros.

A one time purchase over a lifetime supply of consumables? Orange armor will compound this problem, since once you get a critted piece for every slot there is no benefit to having said crafts.

Except crewskills SHOULD be useless in combat situations.

The funny thing is. I completely agree with that point. But they've already accomplished that for Biochem.

That is terrible game design in that it doesn't provoke players that have no desire to create/sell items to use the system at all.

That's not terrible game design. Terrible game design is forcing players who want nothing to do with a certain aspect of gameplay to spend time messing with it.

Think of the huge conniption your average raider would have if 1.2 made it so you had to PvP in order to get top tier raiding gear (or vice versa).

Leave crew skills to the people who actually want to craft and don't make people who aren't interested forced to be involved in it ( I know one of the major design changes that pissed me off more than anything in WoW was when 3.x made having 2x maxed crafting professions mandatory ).

Generally adding arbitrary combat advantages is just a way for the developer to conceal the actual problems with the crafting system in a game ( back to WoW: the fact that outside the service crafters the craft skills were largely garbage... funny enough, the same problem TOR is having right now, except TOR only has one short-term value / service crafter ).

Due to the cost prohibitive nature of consumable stims/adrenals/medpacs, biochem people with the reusables effectively have a permanent stat boost and healing/adrenal abilities.

I still think this is a weak argument though. I put the effort into making sure I have a beefy stockpile of consumables for my use.. its hardly my fault, Bioware's fault, or a Biochemist's fault if you're unwilling to do the same.

The only tangible advantage that Biochem has is that basically every item it wants to sell is top tier, while many of the other crafting professions have their gear outstripped by top tier gear from raids/pvp ( especially the modification making professions ).... and that's an issue with the other professions, not an issue with Biochem.

Oh.. The "just do the same for every other crew skill" argument, while valid, is a bit of a misleading argument... because by and large making those items BoE is purely advantageous to the crafter, while in this instance such an endeavor would fundamentally change the way the crew skill works ( which is especially grievous because it's the only crew skill in the game that sells short term value items, taking that away would alienate any player who prefers that style of trading )... whereas giving my cybertech the ability to sell those high end speeders is just gravy.

A one time purchase over a lifetime supply of consumables? Orange armor will compound this problem, since once you get a critted piece for every slot there is no benefit to having said crafts.

Really? Maybe on your server but on mine the benefit will be easy money. As of right now the purple level 49/50 crit armor pieces go for 200k+. So yeah the Synthweaver would have to buy his stims but he wont have a problem affording them by selling items on the GTN.

Again the game does not revolve around YOU. It is an online world with an online economy & there is plenty of ways to make money. If you have not figured out how to do so then I almost feel sorry for you, dont try and take it out on biochem's.

Really? Maybe on your server but on mine the benefit will be easy money. As of right now the purple level 49/50 crit armor pieces go for 200k+. So yeah the Synthweaver would have to buy his stims but he wont have a problem affording them by selling items on the GTN.

You do realize that it takes maybe 30 synthweaving skill to make orange armor? And it only needs the cheapest and most readily available supplies?

Stuff is expensive because it's rare/expensive to make/time consuming to make (or get the skill to make).

that lvl 49/50 crit armor pieces go for 200k+, because they require mandalorian iron, 400 skill, Numerous RE attempts to learn the correct schematic, and then takes a long time to crafter per attempt.

Orange stuff is none of the above. Schematics show up (frequently enough) from Underworld trading as a free bonus. Mats required aren't rare. Skill level (and level of mats required) are low.

Unless they do more than simply make orange items crittable, orange items will *destroy* the armor making skills. Other than cosmetics, there will be virtually no reason to have more than 30 skill. (or maybe 100, think the first orange helm may require 100 skill).

Really? Maybe on your server but on mine the benefit will be easy money. As of right now the purple level 49/50 crit armor pieces go for 200k+. So yeah the Synthweaver would have to buy his stims but he wont have a problem affording them by selling items on the GTN.

 

Again the game does not revolve around YOU. It is an online world with an online economy & there is plenty of ways to make money. If you have not figured out how to do so then I almost feel sorry for you, dont try and take it out on biochem's.

I did not say anything about the value of item being sold. I am saying that with the upcoming changes to orange gear availability and augmentation, after the first piece you get for a slot there is no additional benefit to being a synthweaver, armormech, etc. A slightly less potent reusable that is not consumed however does provide a bonus to that individual player for all the times where they dont have to be min-maxed.

I did not say anything about the value of item being sold. I am saying that with the upcoming changes to orange gear availability and augmentation, after the first piece you get for a slot there is no additional benefit to being a synthweaver, armormech, etc. A slightly less potent reusable that is not consumed however does provide a bonus to that individual player for all the times where they dont have to be min-maxed.

Except all the credits you make selling armor to other people. Biochem is just saving their users credits. Oh look both skills accomplish the same thing....