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Why should I feel bad about wanting to faceroll fresh 55's?


BalphoWan

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Fine. You should feel bad because your "enjoyment" comes with the following prices:

 

- Gear grinds make having alts impossible

- Gear gap screws up game enjoyment for MOST (*) veteran players (when I kill someone I'd prefer to be able to say to myself: "HAH! I was better!" rather than "oh well, poor recruit-guy, never even had a chance with this gear")

- Gear gap screws up game enjoyment for non-veteran players (whatever gave you the idea that new players have some holy obligation to join warzones and get facerolled by everyone for your personal enjoyment, until they can get gear?!)

- Gear gap drives casual players away (and sorry, but I don't see why just because Mr. X happens to have a life and Mr. Y doesn't, why should Mr. Y get advantage over Mr. X. Mr. Y should be more skilled anyway, from all the time he spends in the game, and if he's not then he deserves to get ganked) and casual players are what keeps every MMO profitable for the company

- Most normal people would prefer matches to be won based on SKILL of the participants, not based on how much time they spend in game

 

(*) Of course there are those veteran players who just keep playing a lot... and don't have ANY skill to show for it. Take away their gear advantage and they're going to get pooned by pretty much everyone, hence the QQ about naked warzones.

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Looking at the numbers on level 55 bracket, unless I'm missing something, my 28K HP with Partisan gear sure looks better than the guys in 24K HP. I've no idea what they're wearing (maybe they didn't get the memo naked PvP no longer works), but it sure looks worse than what I got. The gear still gives you an advantage. It's just not like the old day where you win 1on2 and thank your EWH gear, WZ adrenal, and WZ medpack for having your back because it sure wasn't your skill that was responsible for winning.

 

I have 24k hp at 55, wearing my EWH gear.

 

I think what has most people disturbed is that old pvp gear means absolutely nothing- you pretty much might as well be naked.

 

There's no question that gear means as much as it always has- and that without it, you will suck at pvp.

 

This game has always been gear>skill- I don't see why anyone expected a change.

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I don't think we disagree that gear should give you some advantage. At that point it is just a discussion of quantity. You and I may disagree on how much of an advantage should come with better gear. That is merely just our opinions, and there isn't much discussion warranted on that subject.

 

Agreed. You want a greater advantage based on gear. I want a lesser advantage. Either of them are opinions. My only minor disagreement here is that there may be some discussion warranted based on the simple lesson that I, a reasonable good PvP player who gets a lot of enjoyment from PvP, was driven away by the level of advantage that you want. Conversely: You are annoyed by the level of advantage that I want, because ... it doesn't make you feel as cool, and it may eventually cause you to stop playing PvP. Either way: it's a potential player lost.

 

The minor discussion could be simply trying to gauge how many players are like you and how many are like me. I don't know the numbers and I won't put down a guess here, but its something that the community and Bioware could/should take interest in.

 

The point is that I worked long and hard to get my gear. I also worked long and hard to develop whatever PVP skills I have. And I think that the time and effort i put into getting those skills and gear warrant reward.

 

This is where we strongly disagree. The reward you want is to be able to annoy/drive away players. You are explicitly asking for an advantage strong enough to overcome skill, to the point that no starting player has any hope of defeating you in 1-on-1 battle.

 

I find that silly and harmful to the PvP player base. I also feel that it cheapens PvP and gives players in high-level PvP armor a bad reputation as people who grind for the explicit purpose of gaining an advantage that will let them appear to be skilled.

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Agreed. You want a greater advantage based on gear. I want a lesser advantage. Either of them are opinions. My only minor disagreement here is that there may be some discussion warranted based on the simple lesson that I, a reasonable good PvP player who gets a lot of enjoyment from PvP, was driven away by the level of advantage that you want. Conversely: You are annoyed by the level of advantage that I want, because ... it doesn't make you feel as cool, and it may eventually cause you to stop playing PvP. Either way: it's a potential player lost.

 

The minor discussion could be simply trying to gauge how many players are like you and how many are like me. I don't know the numbers and I won't put down a guess here, but its something that the community and Bioware could/should take interest in.

 

 

 

This is where we strongly disagree. The reward you want is to be able to annoy/drive away players. You are explicitly asking for an advantage strong enough to overcome skill, to the point that no starting player has any hope of defeating you in 1-on-1 battle.

 

I find that silly and harmful to the PvP player base. I also feel that it cheapens PvP and gives players in high-level PvP armor a bad reputation as people who grind for the explicit purpose of gaining an advantage that will let them appear to be skilled.

 

I can't keep saying the same things over and over again. Please read my former posts. I don't want to drive anyone away. I am still here after the grind so why would I think that it would drive other players away? I don't think it would drive other players away. It hasn't driven yyou away either. That is where we fundamentally disagree, and I don't know how much more we can beat a dead horse. I also don't want an advantage "to be cool." I want my time invested in PVP to reap a gear advantage which gives me an edge in PVP. That is how almost every single PVP paradigm is set up in every MMO on the market. I am not suggesting a novel concept. We just disagree about the degree of advantage that should be gained. That's all. I don't know what else can be said.

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Fine. You should feel bad because your "enjoyment" comes with the following prices:

 

- Gear grinds make having alts impossible

- Gear gap screws up game enjoyment for MOST (*) veteran players (when I kill someone I'd prefer to be able to say to myself: "HAH! I was better!" rather than "oh well, poor recruit-guy, never even had a chance with this gear")

- Gear gap screws up game enjoyment for non-veteran players (whatever gave you the idea that new players have some holy obligation to join warzones and get facerolled by everyone for your personal enjoyment, until they can get gear?!)

- Gear gap drives casual players away (and sorry, but I don't see why just because Mr. X happens to have a life and Mr. Y doesn't, why should Mr. Y get advantage over Mr. X. Mr. Y should be more skilled anyway, from all the time he spends in the game, and if he's not then he deserves to get ganked) and casual players are what keeps every MMO profitable for the company

- Most normal people would prefer matches to be won based on SKILL of the participants, not based on how much time they spend in game

 

(*) Of course there are those veteran players who just keep playing a lot... and don't have ANY skill to show for it. Take away their gear advantage and they're going to get pooned by pretty much everyone, hence the QQ about naked warzones.

 

I simply disagree with your assertions, and I don't think you can speak for MOSt veteran PVP players. But again, you are entitled to your opinion. Thanks for the response.

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This is where we strongly disagree. The reward you want is to be able to annoy/drive away players. You are explicitly asking for an advantage strong enough to overcome skill, to the point that no starting player has any hope of defeating you in 1-on-1 battle.

 

I find that silly and harmful to the PvP player base. I also feel that it cheapens PvP and gives players in high-level PvP armor a bad reputation as people who grind for the explicit purpose of gaining an advantage that will let them appear to be skilled.

 

Ok so you are delighted that PVPers lost their rewards for their time spent in game. What do you think should replace it? You specifically want to claw back any advancement a PVPer might make, back to starting level because hey, it makes you feel better. Why is your time in game more valuable than mine? There shouldn't be huge gear level advantages I agree, but these changes have gone too far. They didn't just remove the carrot, they removed the whole damn vegetable garden. They castrated PVP gear and put training wheels on PVE gear, plus allowed the PVE gear's higher budget stats to carry over into PVP. And so far I'm not seeing any reward for the PVPers. Just a whole lot of taking away, and nothing to strive for in PVP anymore.

Edited by Rantank
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Fine. You should feel bad because your "enjoyment" comes with the following prices:

 

- Gear grinds make having alts impossible No it doesn't.

- Gear gap screws up game enjoyment for MOST (*) veteran players (when I kill someone I'd prefer to be able to say to myself: "HAH! I was better!" rather than "oh well, poor recruit-guy, never even had a chance with this gear") I wasn't aware you spoke for most veteran players, not that I disagree.

- Gear gap screws up game enjoyment for non-veteran players (whatever gave you the idea that new players have some holy obligation to join warzones and get facerolled by everyone for your personal enjoyment, until they can get gear?!) I have leveled up several 50s since I first started playing, and I started to go through the gear grind on my marauder when everyone was in EWH and I was in recruit. It's doable

- Gear gap drives casual players away (and sorry, but I don't see why just because Mr. X happens to have a life and Mr. Y doesn't, why should Mr. Y get advantage over Mr. X. Mr. Y should be more skilled anyway, from all the time he spends in the game, and if he's not then he deserves to get ganked) and casual players are what keeps every MMO profitable for the company So people who go through the gear grind suddenly don't have lives now?

- Most normal people would prefer matches to be won based on SKILL of the participants, not based on how much time they spend in game Time in game is often equivalent to skill in the fact that someone who PvPs more is likely to be more SKILLED, gear or not. This isn't 100% fact, though!

(*) Of course there are those veteran players who just keep playing a lot... and don't have ANY skill to show for it. Take away their gear advantage and they're going to get pooned by pretty much everyone, hence the QQ about naked warzones.

 

/10char

Edited by SystemProcess
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Balphowan,

Why do you feel you need justify your self to the community? As long as you are operating within the bounds of the game and the ToS/EULA, (ie, not cheating) then what does it matter if you do or do not enjoy "face rolling noobs"? We all have our own convictions and I do not determine mine by what the community says.

 

There are those who will come down on either side of any given fence...so it's for you to decide which side you want to be on in regards to this issue.

Just be warned though, if you land on my side, I'm going to blast you with my assault cannon ;)

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Obviously skilled players can also spend less time to do the same things. For example let's say you get exactly 100 comms per game and you win exactly 50% fo your game. For a lowbie, you'd need 1.33 games to finish your daily, and assuming you put all your comms into consumables as well, then you get (13.3 + 20) / 1.33 = ~25 consumables per game.

 

Now for a level 55 character with the identical payout, you'd need 2.66 games to finish your daily which nets you 30 consumables (this is assuming you used your RWZ comms to buy consumables), so you get (26.6 + 30) / 2.66 = 21.3 consumables per game. And this is assuming you make the rather ridiculous decision to use all your RWZ from the daily to buy consumables. So clearly, it is always more beneficial to have an alt running dailys to replenish your consumables and that's the smart thing to do. An unskilled player might not realize this. But I'd argue the overwhelming case for the average guy you used to roll over, he isn't thinking about consumables at all because whatever comms he has needs to go into gear first, so he's not choosing this by choice. The guy with a ton of consumables probably did put in some thought as to how to obtain them efficeintly, but the guy who isn't using them is doing so because he doesn't even have the time to get geared (which is why he got rolled) so even if he knew how to optimally get consumables, it doesn't help him.

 

Well, the thing about skill affecting times to get geared aren't really valid imo. A number of reasons;

a) This is a team based game, where the most comms are being rewarded to overall performance. Now, I don't care how good you are, a decent team together can annihlate you if you've been screwed by the Biogod's Qing system. As a result, wins, and consequently the extra comms that come with them usually are resultant from an overall lucky Q streak, not individuals skill

 

b) This game rewards participation over performance; Maybe it's just a gear thing, but I know when I first started playing PvP, I wasn't great. Even after I became relatively good, it still took me awhile. Even now, well above the average baddy (Maybe its my newly found optimized WH in conjunction with OP sniper, idk), I still feel like I don't get that many more comms unless I'm Qing with a Physics premade.

 

I know when playing Crysis 3, it took me ~4 days to get good, set GFX seetings to x1, and then the xp I gained was like times 3. Shooter games, well, crysis in particular, are definitely more skill-based, and certainly more "lone-wolf" friendly. I never even considered myself above average in that game, even after my huge leap forward.

 

I remember thinking that all the people who had all the attatchments to their guns only beat me because of the better stats. I was wrong. By the time I was able to be good enough to obtain the mods by this point in release (less than a week), I was good enough to use any gun. Lots of good performance doesn't necessarily equate to more comms, at least in my experience

 

c) Extremely low skillcap. Let's be honest, anyone who can call themselves exceptionally "skilled" at this game has got to be kidding themselves. The ability to press buttons is insignificant next to the power of the force. Very skilled players will find themselves performing barely better when it comes to easy newb-friendly classes like Mercs that require a low skill ceiling to obtain a mean level of skill that would require much more effort in a class like an Assassin or Operative. Consequently, those classes are perceived as overpowered when skilled individuals use the class' tools to their advantage. I tend to fall into this group, because I am damned furious whenever I want to activate resilience, yet have no cooldowns that give me any sort of edge over an Assassin (Now I have a roll, so watch out! :p). Even though I possess the skill to hit the button, and the strategy to know when/where to hit it, I am unable to do so because of gameplay mechanics. These mechanics mean that even skilled players will not get to use certain tools to their advantage, even if they can use them better than baddies.

 

Baddies with shroud >usually better than> skilled individuals without shroud.

Edited by Zunayson
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Balphowan,

Why do you feel you need justify your self to the community? As long as you are operating within the bounds of the game and the ToS/EULA, (ie, not cheating) then what does it matter if you do or do not enjoy "face rolling noobs"? We all have our own convictions and I do not determine mine by what the community says.

 

There are those who will come down on either side of any given fence...so it's for you to decide which side you want to be on in regards to this issue.

Just be warned though, if you land on my side, I'm going to blast you with my assault cannon ;)

 

Excellent point. I will see you out there... ;)

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I remember back in EQ1 people told me I'm awesome tank and I always told them you should thank my gear for being awesome because I can do most of this stuff while totally AFK. It seems like that's the preferred method of playing for most people in PvP though. People want to thank their gear for being awesome as opposed to themselves for being awesome.

 

 

This completely. Anyone who doesn't pvp to try their skills against another in a relatively equal setting is just a bully who gets a kick of of beating up people with an unfair advantage imo. I would like to see these guys in real life be stuck naked in a ring weaponless while someone walks in wearing full plate and is mentally retarded yet still wails on them. I bet the gear difference is the first thing the start screaming at =)

 

But it's only a game right, not real life. Okay - so you can only pick on people in a digital environment, good for you!!

Edited by rhakoth
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I only read the first two pages of these replies (because my boss is coming in soon :D ), so maybe someone already mentioned this, or maybe no one cares at this point... but with the OP mentioning that he still does mostly PvE I got to thinking...

 

I don't do any top-end PvE, but don't the flashpoints have one or two "hard" modes, where they get tougher than normal? Given that, I wonder, once you've geared up some in PvE, do you go back and do the FP in "easy" mode because now you can faceroll them that way? It seems to me this idea "that my gear has earned me the right to faceroll noobs" is along the same lines as going back and doing easy mode PvE once you've geared up. I believe, in PvE, the point of gearing up is so that you can now compete in the harder FP, right? So wouldn't that argue, if you wanted an analogy between PvE and PvP, that there would be "gear brackets" in PvP - and earning better PvP gear would allow you to now compete in the "higher gear" PvP bracket?

 

That's all just a theoretical exercise on my part though. I don't really care one way or another about gear to argue it strongly. I like facerolling people once in a while just as much as the next guy. I dislike getting stomped probably just as much as the next guy. I was full EWH in 1.7 with my main, and I knew I wasn't good enough for uber gear to help me when I had to 1v1 any skilled PvP person anyway - so I called for help in chat. :)

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Those posts usually praise the attempt to eliminate the gap between a fully BIS geared PVP player and a fresh 55 with little to no PVP gear. Many of those that have taken that position often flame PVP players for wanting to roflstomp fresh level 55 players. I find myself feeling ashamed that I enjoy doing that. And this has started to bother me.

You could've been a little more introspective before the massive changes to bolster; and then you would be more at home with the changes.

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OP is a duck. Facerolling fresh 55s isn't all that far off from repeatedly ganking lower-level people in open world (you put more effort into levelling, lulz).

 

Bored of the game? Take a break, simple as that.

Edited by Helig
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You are sorely misunderstanding me. I never said nor do I want others to get facerolled. I said that I enjoy when it happens sometimes, and I don't think I should be ashamed of enjoying it. I also explicitly said in a later post that I do not seek out lesser geared and/or lesser skilled players. If I did, I would have griefed players during the Gree open world PVP event on Ilum. That is something very different from your accusation. I choose targets in a WZ based on strategy in that particular WZ. I enjoy a fight on an even playing field, much more than when I faceroll a lesser geared/skilled player. But why can I not enjoy both, especiially when I do not seek out the latter?? Why can't I enjoy the fact that it took me a lot of time and effort to be able to get to a point where I can do that?? Is that so bad?? If it is, then I am guilty as charged.

 

And by your logic, I can enjoy facerolling someone if I am more skilled than them, but not if it iis because I am more geared. Why?? Both take time and effort to acquire. Whether it is skill or gear that is the reason I facerolled an opponent, neither were given to me. They were earned. So why is one more honorable than the other??

 

 

Who said either was honorable? If you enjoy facerolling people you're a bad person. If you don't think people should be facerolled then you shouldn't do it. If you enjoy doing it then you like that people get facerolled ergo you are a bad person.

 

You can look at where your time and effort have gotten you, and be appreciative of that, but you should want to take that skill into an environment where it can actually shine. Facerolling bads is what people who say they have skill do when all they have is mediocrity and a big ego.

 

TL;DR No one said it was better, you're still a bad person. I don't have to read the rest of your idiotic drek.

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Sleep has helped me (maybe) see this a little better.

 

If I'm understanding this, the OP is basically asking for the "Right to Haze".

 

He was roflstomped and facerolled for weeks when he started playing. He paid his due, got his uber-gear, and now feels that its his right to inflict the same hazing on other new players.

 

This works great if you're trying to set up a clique or a gang (or a fraternity, though I think I already covered that with the previous two options). For a game that is supposed to be welcoming... not so much. It will appeal and cater to the hardcore and er... firmcore players, but I'd guess that the more casual majority sees it as an annoyance thats not worth the effort. Why play PvP where players are actively seeking to make the game less enjoyable for you, when in PvE you get the support of other players. Either of them can have jerks or gear-snobs on your side. Why PvP? Why subject yourself to the hazing? Just so you can haze others?

 

I won't say the OP is a bad person for wanting this. I can't say that this is a bad way to run a game (I don't have the stats to support the claim). I will say that facing almost insurmountable disadvantages isn't really enjoyable for me. If my reward for soldiering through it is the right to haze other new players... then I'll pass. I personally find hazing reprehensible and morally corrupt, and I can't support a game mechanic based on it, or really respect anyone who desires it.

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Ah I see the OP edited his OP somewhat to concede that his tone was wrong. I feel it was closer to the truth and maintain you're a bad person.

 

But lets take this new question: Why should you feel bad for taking advantage of a gear disparity. Ah now that I don't feel you should feel bad for. But here's my question to you. Do you feel ENTITLED to have a vast gear disparity to take advantage of?

 

An advantage that you gain that is intentionally built into the system you shouldn't feel bad for taking advantage of (though unintended advantages gained through exploits you probably should unless they become necessary to compete). Taking advantage of a gear disparity was fine on a personal level. It created a lot of undesirable play as a whole though and BW decided to change their system.

 

So while a legitimate advantage exists, if you choose to use it, there's nothing wrong with that. Doing what you can, within the rules, to win should be praised. That includes using grenades, stims, warzone consumables, premades, keybinding, etc. That's perfectly legit. While they were usable in warzones that included using on use power relics and adrenals. Those are things available to anyone willing to put the effort in to obtain them, and if you don't want to put in the effort, stop whining.

 

Gear disparity was a big one though because no matter how you slice it, you can't ding as a fresh 50 (now 55) on your very first toon, and have full partisan gear. Yes you can get it in a week but before, that was a week of being an empty spot on a warzone, and that sucked. Sucked for you, sucked for your teammates, sucked for any opponents who cared more about competition than facerolling. Yes I giggled when I got absurdly large hits on undergeared people too, but I can admit the game is much better when gear is less of an issue, and fresh 55s, or just PVEers trying to break into pvp, can contribute.

 

Should PVP gear be better than non PVP gear? I've said a million times it should be. Should it be so much better you can steamroll fresh 55s with no gear? Absolutely not. The game is better overall without that crap around.

 

That's why, even as I shake my head at the exploits being continuously found for the new bolster, I agree with the spirit of it.

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I love how a BW created issue has become a situation where people are now being blamed as being unsporting or bullies because they don't advocate a system that flies in the face of achievement. Seriously, I have no problem when someone beats me in a WZ. How often is it 1/1 anyway? usually some sniper or ranged person taking potshots at you anyway. Maybe some of the "skilled" players can find a way to keep themselves alive when focused, but whatever..

 

I do have a problem with people thinking that it's wrong to want to secure an advantage over another. Hell, that's 99% of human behavior, in and out of game. Heck, in the wild, predators don't go out and try to take down a gazelle in its prime, they look to pick off the weak, sick, or otherwise infirmed. In other words, they look for the situation that where they have the advantage. That's the natural order of things.

 

The whole premise of the end game, whether pve or pvp is to engage in activies that will secure you an advantage. That means better gear. Those are the time sinks we accept in our quest to have the best endgame gear for our respective activity (PVP of PVE). Why are people grinding this gear? To show it off? No, it's to be able to complete the hard modes (PVE) or achieve the top tier of pvp gear.

 

Whether it's real life or a game, common sense dictactes that there is a progression, and someone is always going to be down the road a bit more than you and have an advantage. We deal with it and grind the gear out. The "fair" concept is that everyone can have that same advantage when they secure the gear (and anyone can do it). The system does NOT work that way now.

 

Someone will always have an advantage. Somehow, this sick, twisted world has gotten to the point where people think it makes sense to punish achievement and reward non-achievement. I honestly have no idea what gear to use, slots to keep empty, or whatever other jury-rigged solution to implement to have the proper gear in PVP now. That in and of itself is the problem.

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First off stop calling the OP a bad person for having an opinion and playing the game, without cheating or hacking. I don't agree with him. I think it's self destructive as it turns away new players and ultimately destroys the game. But that doesn't make him a bad person.

 

If he was saying "I touch little boys for fun" then yes he's a bad man. But hes not. He's saying "I play a competitive game and gain satisfaction destroying others with an advantage (an unfair advantage due to the degree of impact IMHO) that I gained through time and effort". That doesn't make him a bad person or even a bully. Though there are some cyberbullies out there in the game.

 

Stick to game related opinions... Not personal attacks.

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Sleep has helped me (maybe) see this a little better.

 

If I'm understanding this, the OP is basically asking for the "Right to Haze".

 

He was roflstomped and facerolled for weeks when he started playing. He paid his due, got his uber-gear, and now feels that its his right to inflict the same hazing on other new players.

 

SWToR isn't a prison block. The fact that you got abused and violated when you were a newcomer doesn't justify an entitlement to do the same to other newcomers once you've settled in.

Edited by Helig
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