So before the forums went down there was a thread on defense and vigilance trees and tanking, saying that the upper part of the defense tree dosnt add a whole lot tank wise and the mid part of the vigilance tree does. The strategy is based on the protector ability and involves jumping around to get a huge bonus to defense (40% with unremitting and protector from the vigilance trees) but to do this you have to use guardian leap to jump to someone and then force leap back to your target.

I just wanted to continue that discussion. Here is one of the trees posted in the thread

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#500fMG0u0MZhGrMMhzzM.1

The tree dosnt have blade barrier but according to some the scaling was off and it wouldn't block much damage end-game.

I'm highly interested in this spec, as a proud 'Overpower Tank' in parts of LoTRO. Although I wouldn't be surprised if we see things shift around a bit fairly soon, and wouldn't be sad to see the Defense tree get some love... this looks like it could be a lot of fun.

One potential issue is that it really doesn't come together until level 50. Guardian Leap is a huge damage reduction, utility and general awesome ability for this spec, as well as the key to getting Unremitting off every 20 seconds.

I also suspect that if there's a way to go 14 into defense and 27 into Vigilance, it might be better; Commanding Awe is a great ability, and more importantly you get a flat 4% damage reduction. Unless I'm missing something, that beats a 4% chance to shield 20% of damage by a bunch.

I really can't imagine the trees last beyond the first class pass - it makes no sense you get some better damage mitigation in the DPS tree than the tanking tree.. and if history is any teacher, they will modify the DPS tree first, then fix the tanking tree.

Some of the Vig builds for tanking do come off sound, and work out well in practice (Got my last guard to 46) -- my only warning is not getting too comfortable with them, because I can't imagine that was the design vision for the trees.

I really can't imagine the trees last beyond the first class pass - it makes no sense you get some better damage mitigation in the DPS tree than the tanking tree.. and if history is any teacher, they will modify the DPS tree first, then fix the tanking tree.

 

Some of the Vig builds for tanking do come off sound, and work out well in practice (Got my last guard to 46) -- my only warning is not getting too comfortable with them, because I can't imagine that was the design vision for the trees.

Yes I strongly agree. I do think that Guardian DPS will be one of the things most affected by class balance in the coming months, especially since they stated their intention of making a guardian dps every bit as competitive as any other dps AC/Tree. I'm more than happy with this vision, seeing how I plan on rolling a dedicated DPS role as a Guardian.

I really can't imagine the trees last beyond the first class pass - it makes no sense you get some better damage mitigation in the DPS tree than the tanking tree.. and if history is any teacher, they will modify the DPS tree first, then fix the tanking tree.

 

Some of the Vig builds for tanking do come off sound, and work out well in practice (Got my last guard to 46) -- my only warning is not getting too comfortable with them, because I can't imagine that was the design vision for the trees.

The same could be said for going all-out Defense. Heck, it happened before. Our Defense tree was better (in my opinion) until a few builds ago when they swapped things around. Whatever "vision" they have might end up actually making a Vigilance tank even more viable, you can't ever predict that.

Either way, if they do a major change to the trees they'll let us to a free respec and then folks can figure things out from that point.

Hmm.

In the build mentioned in the OP, I found a few talents missing.

So my question is. How much will they be missed?

Hilt strike - Tooltip says huge threat? Will that be so much a none issue?

- Neither vigilance nor defense end talent.

So no extra attack (rotation issues?) Will the attack that seems like a big hitter be missed or not?

Hmm.

 

In the build mentioned in the OP, I found a few talents missing.

So my question is. How much will they be missed?

 

Hilt strike - Tooltip says huge threat? Will that be so much a none issue?

 

- Neither vigilance nor defense end talent.

So no extra attack (rotation issues?) Will the attack that seems like a big hitter be missed or not?

The problem with Hilt Strike is the 60 second cooldown. And it's only single target. Our threat seems just fine on a single target, and even if it wasn't, you can only use it once a minute. So it doesn't seem that big of a loss to me.

The Defense top skill is pretty nice, definitely, but Overhead Slash is comparable if you use Vigilance (the skill, not the tree) to reduce the cooldown to 9 seconds. So I don't think there's anything lost there.

Not sure what the "extra attack" question is about.

Hmm.

 

In the build mentioned in the OP, I found a few talents missing.

So my question is. How much will they be missed?

 

Hilt strike - Tooltip says huge threat? Will that be so much a none issue?

 

- Neither vigilance nor defense end talent.

So no extra attack (rotation issues?) Will the attack that seems like a big hitter be missed or not?

Hilt Strike has a 60 sec cooldown, which is a long time even if the threat is worthwhile.

You'll also note that the damage from Overhead Slash is greater than either end talent.

That said, there isn't only 1 way to assign talents and you can be an effective tank moving farther up either tree.

You'll also note that the damage from Overhead Slash is greater than either end talent.

Guardian Slash does a lot more damage than Overhead Slash once you get a stack of 5 armor debuffs on an enemy. That's why I felt the need to point out the shorter cooldown for OH which I think makes it at least as much DPS in the long run.

So before the forums went down there was a thread on defense and vigilance trees and tanking, saying that the upper part of the defense tree dosnt add a whole lot tank wise and the mid part of the vigilance tree does. The strategy is based on the protector ability and involves jumping around to get a huge bonus to defense (40% with unremitting and protector from the vigilance trees) but to do this you have to use guardian leap to jump to someone and then force leap back to your target.

 

I just wanted to continue that discussion. Here is one of the trees posted in the thread

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#500fMG0u0MZhGrMMhzzM.1

 

The tree dosnt have blade barrier but according to some the scaling was off and it wouldn't block much damage end-game.

XsteckXx - Yeah this discussion was resumed on the main Jedi Knight thread attached to a 'guide' that tried to explain the upsides and downsides to specializing in the tree.

So far the discussion has continued well, even if the guide has attracted some flames. Hopefully whatever build people choose we can at least continue to offer options for something other than the cookie-cutter full defense tree guardian.

I feel that classes with the fewest options generally are played by the fewest people, and this class has several viable options.

Seraphimm

Hmm.

 

In the build mentioned in the OP, I found a few talents missing.

So my question is. How much will they be missed?

 

Hilt strike - Tooltip says huge threat? Will that be so much a none issue?

 

- Neither vigilance nor defense end talent.

So no extra attack (rotation issues?) Will the attack that seems like a big hitter be missed or not?

The added threat from hilt strike is an additional .5 of its damage. WHile normal attacks in soresu form have a threat of 1.5 of your damage hilt strikes threat wil be 2x of your damage.

While I can see the appeal of the Vigilance tank it reminds me a lot of early WoW where mortal strike spec was the best tank spec around, but it didnt take too long before prot got the edges it needed to make it a proper maintank spec.

Interesting. I can see the appeal in Vigilance, but this is the build I want to try:

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#500fbGburrkuRZZGo.1

I haven't tested the Knight during the beta (wanted to stay away because of spoilers) so I'm a bit curious as to how he manages at tanking several enemies at once.

Guardian Slash does a lot more damage than Overhead Slash once you get a stack of 5 armor debuffs on an enemy. That's why I felt the need to point out the shorter cooldown for OH which I think makes it at least as much DPS in the long run.

GS does an average of 2490 damage with 5 stacks of sunder up. Assuming you hit this 4 times during a minute that is a dps of (2490*4)/6=166

OS has an average damage of 2046. With a 9 second cooldown you can score 6,6 OS during a minute. Rounded down to 6 for this example, giving a dps of (2046*6)/60 = 204,6

So the dps from GS is roughly 81% of the dps from OS. So you are correct, in the long run Overhead Slash provides more dps.

Interesting. I can see the appeal in Vigilance, but this is the build I want to try:

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#500fbGburrkuRZZGo.1

 

I haven't tested the Knight during the beta (wanted to stay away because of spoilers) so I'm a bit curious as to how he manages at tanking several enemies at once.

If you are planning on going full defense I'd reccomend this instead:

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#500fMGcubrouRZhG.1

JK can tank several enemies at once if your group cooperates and does not go all out aoe from the first second. It becomes easier at level 32 when you get Cyclone Slash.

...if your group cooperates and does not go all out aoe from the first second. .

One day this is going to happen. I can FEEL it.

Doesnt Guardian Leap act as a bit of a threat dump for you?

I noticed the damage mitigation buff applied to my target and I. I didn't notice any threat reduction applied to either of us.

Though honestly without proper threat meters it would be hard to tell.

From what I could tell the threat reduction self application did not carry over, just the damage reduction.

I plan more testing in a week or so depending on how long 50 takes

As far as PvE tanking is concerned, you're going to need cyclonic sweeps to function as a tank. You'll be in soresu form by default, and without CS you'll be too starved for focus to maintain threat. You'll also benefit more from Blade Barrier over the duration of the fight than you will from unremitting or the damage reduction portion of protector.

The math is showing otherwise. Blade Barrier works better in shorter lower damage fights, Unremitting/protector performs better the longer and more damage you take.

The focus shifts, because while you lose the added focus from cyclonic sweeps you enjoy a net gain of focus with "Effluence" making all your force sweeps free. I think someone mentioned that the math works so conveniently it is an even trade, but I'd have to check

The math is showing otherwise. Blade Barrier works better in shorter lower damage fights, Unremitting/protector performs better the longer and more damage you take.

 

The focus shifts, because while you lose the added focus from cyclonic sweeps you enjoy a net gain of focus with "Effluence" making all your force sweeps free. I think someone mentioned that the math works so conveniently it is an even trade, but I'd have to check

Assuming both builds use Swelling Winds you'd get 5 Force Sweep per minute at a cost of 3 focus each, also both builds would be using Soresu to gain 1 focus every 6th second, yielding both 10 focus from this. Effluence means saving 5*3 = 15 focus. Now making the assumption you get hit every 3rd second Cyclonic Sweeps will double the amount of focus gained from Soresu to 10, but this means also that the gain from the talent Cyclonic Sweeps is 10 focus, less than what Effluence gets you.

The defense tree has two wildcards in this equation though, that being Courage stacks and Slash providing a cooldown reduction for Combat Focus. Over all the trade is very equal, if I had to give a edge to one I'd say Defense has a slight edge due to Courage.

The defense tree has two wildcards in this equation though, that being Courage stacks and Slash providing a cooldown reduction for Combat Focus. Over all the trade is very equal, if I had to give a edge to one I'd say Defense has a slight edge due to Courage.

For my playstyle though I'd rather just have Force Sweep always be free. Otherwise you have to keep an eye on your Courage stack to be sure you're not using up Focus when you use Sweep. Also, if you Force Leap and then use a free Blade Storm, that burns away a stack of Courage and wastes it (they should change it so that doesn't happen). Slash and Cyclone Strike aren't that great, are you compelled to use them more often than you should in order to keep the CD on Combat Focus down?

The Vigilance tank spec seems easier to manage than some of the clunky and sometimes contradictory mechanics you get into toward the top of the Defense tree.

The math is showing otherwise. Blade Barrier works better in shorter lower damage fights, Unremitting/protector performs better the longer and more damage you take.

 

The focus shifts, because while you lose the added focus from cyclonic sweeps you enjoy a net gain of focus with "Effluence" making all your force sweeps free. I think someone mentioned that the math works so conveniently it is an even trade, but I'd have to check

Courage is the defense version of effluence, and actually works out to save you twice as much focus. Given that both blade storm and force sweep (with talents) have a 12 second cooldown, you'll have an average of 6 seconds between using one of the two. In actual tanking gear along with soresu form plus tanking talents, you should be pushing a good 60-75% combined shield and parry chance. Since we're talking about a situation in which you would want to use force sweep on cooldown, there will be at least 2 enemies attacking you, probably more. Courage gives you a 50% chance on successful defense (shield activation included) to reduce the cost of either blade storm or force sweep by 1, to a max of 3. Assuming you're getting attacked once per second, it will take you an average of 6 seconds (conservative 60% chance to defend, 50% chance on top of that to build a stack, IE 30% chance per attack) to build up 3 stacks: precisely the amount of time needed to get both free force sweeps and 1 focus blade storms.

Courage is the defense version of effluence, and actually works out to save you twice as much focus. Given that both blade storm and force sweep (with talents) have a 12 second cooldown, you'll have an average of 6 seconds between using one of the two. In actual tanking gear along with soresu form plus tanking talents, you should be pushing a good 60-75% combined shield and parry chance. Since we're talking about a situation in which you would want to use force sweep on cooldown, there will be at least 2 enemies attacking you, probably more. Courage gives you a 50% chance on successful defense (shield activation included) to reduce the cost of either blade storm or force sweep by 1, to a max of 3. Assuming you're getting attacked once per second, it will take you an average of 6 seconds (conservative 60% chance to defend, 50% chance on top of that to build a stack, IE 30% chance per attack) to build up 3 stacks: precisely the amount of time needed to get both free force sweeps and 1 focus blade storms.

I'm trying to figure out the practical suggestion you're trying to make. Blade Storm has a 15s CD unless you put points into the Vigilance skill, which is fairly high in the Vigilance tree. Your numbers above assume a 12s Blade Storm CD. So are you suggesting a different kind of hybrid Vigilance/Defense build, one that puts 2 points into Courage instead of 1 point into Effluence? Where will you get the other build point from if you're doing that? I'm just curious.

Courage is the defense version of effluence, and actually works out to save you twice as much focus. Given that both blade storm and force sweep (with talents) have a 12 second cooldown, you'll have an average of 6 seconds between using one of the two. In actual tanking gear along with soresu form plus tanking talents, you should be pushing a good 60-75% combined shield and parry chance. Since we're talking about a situation in which you would want to use force sweep on cooldown, there will be at least 2 enemies attacking you, probably more. Courage gives you a 50% chance on successful defense (shield activation included) to reduce the cost of either blade storm or force sweep by 1, to a max of 3. Assuming you're getting attacked once per second, it will take you an average of 6 seconds (conservative 60% chance to defend, 50% chance on top of that to build a stack, IE 30% chance per attack) to build up 3 stacks: precisely the amount of time needed to get both free force sweeps and 1 focus blade storms.

Your math is off somewhere I think.

Using your 1 attack per second

60% defense rate

50% chance of gaining a stack of courage

You'd need 10 seconds..

you'd block 6 of 10 attacks at 60%

3 of 6 blocks would then apply a stack of courage.

3 stacks of courage!

I'm not saying that's bad, and as I said both builds are viable. I just want to make sure I understand your point... and if so 10 seconds throws off both timers.

Plus we need to know if the Blade Storm you get free with Momentum would use any of those courage stacks, it would really throw off your math if you used courage to make a free strike cost one less focus (I doubt it would refund a focus.)