iasion Posted September 3, 2012 Share Posted September 3, 2012 Ok, so this is a rage post, so prepare for some heavy ranting I don't consider myself to be a good player and not either a bad one. I havn't got my entire BM gear set yet, so i should be as easy to kill as a fly (why it has to be that way i havn't understand yet, but i accept it for now...). In warzones i never finish last in my team and i know the basic mechanics. Point beeing that I probably can't mess up my entire team by being recruit geared. My ranting is instead about the balancing of the teams. Of all matches i have played at lvl50, all games are more or less decided from the start. In about 1-2 minutes it's obvoius which team will steam roll the other and then about two people leave the loosing team. It's like it's worse than just randomizing the teams. Pre lvl50 PvP used to be quite fun and the matches were often even and could swing. The last match I played was alderan defense and the other team held all 3 points for the entire game. Even when we were 5 against 2 attacking their canon they wiped us out without us taking down one of them. I admit that my entire team was probably not even BM geared, but is it supposed to be like this? It isn't even fun to win any more when the match plays out like a gang of goats taking on a gang of crocodiles. Luckily for BW the game is still very fun when doing flashpoints and leveling new classes so I will continue to subscribe, but it feels like all the love from the developers goes to PvE content. Wow, that actually cleared my agressions and now hopefully I can get some sleep and not thinking about breaking into the BioWare server room and taking down the servers with a medium sized construction truck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobNightfall Posted September 3, 2012 Share Posted September 3, 2012 Well, in a nutshell, the answer to your question is yes, team balance really is that bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zoliaxen Posted September 3, 2012 Share Posted September 3, 2012 at lvl50 that are DAMN many premades farming pugs mostly heavy armore healers whith an army of marauders/sentinels and a few Jugg/guardian to protect them. i hate when they win huttball under 3 min or less while we TOTALY getting Extinguised from life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unixbomber Posted September 3, 2012 Share Posted September 3, 2012 Pre lvl50 PvP used to be quite fun and the matches were often even,... notsureifsrs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JudgeNot Posted September 3, 2012 Share Posted September 3, 2012 Well, in a nutshell, the answer to your question is yes, team balance really is that bad. Agreed. As I'm sure most people would know, there are many things that Bioware has failed to deliver regarding PvP. Of course all you can do is rant as you said because Bioware doesn't seem to care much about PvP and the direction of the game is clearly to be a PVE centric one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leiralei Posted September 4, 2012 Share Posted September 4, 2012 Bioware's supposedly "random" matching system regularly matches entire teams of low damage and no healers vs entire teams of high damage and at least two healers. If I play my healer, I'm on a team with other healers. If I play my tank, I'm on a team of nothing but tanks with one token something else. If I play my low level sniper I have more than twice the wins as my low level operative at the same level, solely because when I play the high damage dealer, I get on a team of all high damage dealers. This is going way beyond murphy's law at this point, I think they coded something that way deliberately. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArchangelLBC Posted September 4, 2012 Share Posted September 4, 2012 Glad the ranting made you feel better. Wish I could say you were wrong. My best advice is group up with your guild, preferably at least one of you being a healer. At worst it becomes a case of misery loves company, but other times some decent coordination among just half your team can make the difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iasion Posted September 4, 2012 Author Share Posted September 4, 2012 What bothers me is that the imbalance is much more clear when hitting lvl50. At the 10-49 bracket, even the high level players didn't have the same advantage as the WH geared players have against the "recruits". It wasn't that uncommon to win a game even if your teams average lvl was 10 levels below the other. Even PvP in the early 20s is enjoyable. Now my Sorc in 3 pieces of BM gear gets hit for over 6k of damage sometimes, and that ends my sorry excuse of a life pretty quick... So what I meant when I said that I enjoyed PvP more before hitting lvl50 was that the matches never "tipped over" the way they often do now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hallucigenocide Posted September 4, 2012 Share Posted September 4, 2012 well wz's are all about team work wich is quite hard to achive when paired up with random players. to get a proper wz going you really need to bring some friends with you that knows how to communicate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ameepa Posted September 4, 2012 Share Posted September 4, 2012 (edited) Yes it is supposed to be like that. -Warhero geared team will steamroll recruit geared team -Pre-made will steamroll full PuG -It happens both ways, sometimes you are the steamroller, sometimes you start a thread in forum. But what also happens lots of times is that the teams are balanced OK and the fight is very much winnable for either side if they just play well. You just won't see any posts or screams of matches like these. There is no way how they could "balance" the fight in a way that much lesser geared team could beat the other team. All you can do is wait for a while after getting steamrolled and hope you will get to another team "cycle". It takes one week to get full BM with a warhero piece or two and you can join the steamrollers. Edited September 4, 2012 by Ameepa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
United_Strafes Posted September 4, 2012 Share Posted September 4, 2012 There should be 2 teirs of post 50 WZs. One you would not be able to join till you are valor 70. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ameepa Posted September 4, 2012 Share Posted September 4, 2012 There should be 2 teirs of post 50 WZs. One you would not be able to join till you are valor 70. Why would anyone join that if the other choice is to annihilate lesser geared people? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cycao Posted September 4, 2012 Share Posted September 4, 2012 Except that technically speaking, the average could be 39 lvs apart. Now mix that possibility in with inexperienced players and lack of talents and utilities and you have the sub 50 bracket. Yeah I cannot stand the 10-49 bracket anymore for pretty much this reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iasion Posted September 4, 2012 Author Share Posted September 4, 2012 Yes it is supposed to be like that. -Warhero geared team will steamroll recruit geared team -Pre-made will steamroll full PuG All you can do is wait for a while after getting steamrolled and hope you will get to another team "cycle". It takes one week to get full BM with a warhero piece or two and you can join the steamrollers. I agree that a premade is meant to be better, that i accept and even think it's the best way. But I find it hard to see the reason why recruit geared players stand absolutely no chance against WH geared. Sure, WH should award the player but what good does it to the game that a WH team without effort can kill off recruits with basically only white damage? A team of lvl20s have a greater chance against a team of lvl49s in a WZ. Is it some kind of initiation process? "First you have to be the squishiest character in all games ever made for countless hours, and then you may start to play the game". It's like you first have to be bullied until you cry and then you may have your revenge on the new guys you can bully in return and feel some kind of revenge... And even when you reach BM most games are nothing about what it should be (tactics, syneri between classes and so on), since one team will be under geared and loose even if i let my pet hamster control my character. Sure, one could argue that WZ is all about team play and that you shouldn't even participate if you aren't teaming with at least 3 friends, but PvP is still enjoyable in the 10-49 bracket when soloing, and that proves that the game can be enjoyable even for a solo PvP player. How many hours of gameplay is that "one week"? In my current rate of play it will be alot more than one week, since i have a job and doesn't have the time to play like it's my second job. And even then it will barely make a difference since it will only mean that I have BM if the teams are composed like they are now. One team will often have a massive gear advantage. That will only change when all players have reached lvl50 and have BM gear, and that means that no more new players have joined the game and that all players have BM or higher geared lvl50 characters of all classes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taernel Posted September 4, 2012 Share Posted September 4, 2012 Bolster as a mechanic works pretty well from 10-49. The exception is for super twinked players at 49. There is no bolster to bring Recuit gear to the level of WH. When you see a bunch of 12k-15k hp players on your team at the start of a WZ generally you know it is going to be a rough one. I just stick it out and do the best I'm able. It goes both ways sometimes. There really isn't a good answer and I find PvP fun regardless. Sure BW needs to make some class tweaks but I'm hoping that will happen in the next major update. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth_Philar Posted September 4, 2012 Share Posted September 4, 2012 Ideally, there would be two separate queues. One is the Random queue and the other is the Group queue. Groups cannot queue up for Random WZs and solo players cannot queue up for Group WZs. Unfortunately, the server populations do not support such an ideal situation and thus we are left with the current system of groups steam rolling pugs (which further contributes to the population problem since many pugs simply quit playing out of frustration). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MidichIorian Posted September 4, 2012 Share Posted September 4, 2012 I But I find it hard to see the reason why recruit geared players stand absolutely no chance against WH geared. Don't make me post my printscreens from playing sorc in nothing but lvl 50 greens. It feels like damage mitigation doesnt scale at 50 so if you don't have any good defensive abilties or enough burst to kill before getting killed you're screwed. It's like BW totally forgot about this part when they made people more powerful through augments and added a new tier of PvP gear. With the exception of snipers/gunslingers in 1-49 (those crits are way too high when people only have 11-14K HP) it's pretty balanced defense/offense'wise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iasion Posted September 4, 2012 Author Share Posted September 4, 2012 First off, lv 20s just barely get their first ability from their respective talent trees whereas a lv 49's went through their main tress and have already spent points in other trees. I highly doubt that these theoretical lv 20s can wreck havoc on a lv 49's full rotation with their auto attack and a couple of their vanilla throwaway abilities especially considering healers are gimped in lower levels. It takes roughly 10 matches get one piece of bm gear. It takes way more pvp matches sub 50 to level yourself up to become a legitimate asset to your team. A hardcore pvper could have also saved up 2000 comms and 3500 ranked comms before hitting 50 thus closing in the gear disparity already. Ok, I admit that my lvl20 vs lvl49 might have been an overstatement But as a lvl25 sniper I contribute more than i thought and it happens once in a while that I'm the top DPS in my team at the same time as getting top 3 in medals. I find that game much easier to play than the "grinding for BM gear while getting killed by the draft from a full WH augmented running past my char" (ok, once again a slight overstatement ) And I'm really not one of those who think gear should be taken out of PvP (like GW2). I'm just wondering why the first time as a PvPer has to be like getting beat up by the school bully 6 times a day and always coming back for more. Why not just close the gap between recruit and BM? Whould make it more enjoyable for the new guys and why would that spoil the fun for the WH guys who still have an upper hand but at least must make an effort? Also, I spent the main part of leveling doing the PvE content and then PvP in between. So i reached lvl50 with just 2000 WZ coms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AngusFTW Posted September 4, 2012 Share Posted September 4, 2012 (edited) snipers dont rly count because they already have a lot of hard hitting ability's at like lvl 10.. for pure dps they're good maybe even op right off the bat compared to a lot of other classes in the game. Die fast if focused though Edited September 4, 2012 by AngusFTW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iasion Posted September 4, 2012 Author Share Posted September 4, 2012 Basically the pvp gear disparity is caused by the pve gear disparity. Recruits can do sm ops, battlemasters can do hm ops, and war heroes can do HM EC. Making recruit more viable would destroy the viability of lower tier pve gear. Most they could do is raise the expertise a bit. You have a point there. And since PvE is the main objective of the developers, the PvP part is a bit lagging. However, since expertise is there to begin with, it is obviously a meaning to further separate the players besides just the stat increases between the sets (and to rewards those who PvP instead of PvE). So tweeking the expertise levels should be in their plans hopefully. From what i have heard from my freinds, when fully BM geared, the differences to WH is not that big if you are a skilled player. So with my current weekly playtime hopefully i will see what the game is like in a month or so. Since I regulary do flashpoints and other PvE content, the PvP grinding is a bit lagging. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth_Philar Posted September 4, 2012 Share Posted September 4, 2012 (edited) You have a point there. And since PvE is the main objective of the developers, the PvP part is a bit lagging. However, since expertise is there to begin with, it is obviously a meaning to further separate the players besides just the stat increases between the sets (and to rewards those who PvP instead of PvE). So tweeking the expertise levels should be in their plans hopefully. From what i have heard from my freinds, when fully BM geared, the differences to WH is not that big if you are a skilled player. So with my current weekly playtime hopefully i will see what the game is like in a month or so. Since I regulary do flashpoints and other PvE content, the PvP grinding is a bit lagging. What they really should have done was normalize Expertise rating across all gear sets (i.e. all sets add up to 1200 Expertise). That way you would still have gear progression for the hamsters to chase but it wouldn't have been so drastic as to make WH players able to curb stomp the teeth out of Recruits without any effort. Edited September 4, 2012 by Darth_Philar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WaywardOne Posted September 4, 2012 Share Posted September 4, 2012 In level 10-49, level 10-20s frequently outdamage/outperform much higher level characters. High level 40s, especially ops/snipers can twink and have fun, sure (I have a sentinel that's about to to have over 200 expertise when he hits 47), but the bolster mechanic gives everyone a chance to have fun if they try, even if it's not a good chance in 1v1. Fresh recruits aren't supposed to be able to 1v1 a wh character and yes, they ordinarily can't. So what? If BW made a bracket for sub-BM geared characters it would not pop because there aren't enough people to fill that bracket (other than the ones that put on recruit gear to Q and then pull out the wh gear they legacy-transfered from an alt once the match started). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Technohic Posted September 4, 2012 Share Posted September 4, 2012 (edited) Some sub-50s are the same way. You get on a team that is a bunch of lower levels below 30 and maybe just learning their character or PvPing for the first time, and you can run into a group that somehow gets the higher level characters or just more experienced players. Now snipers are a good example of a class that blossoms early due to having their cover already and ambush with some armor pirecing. Assassin, IMO, was the opposite but became a monster by the end when it got all those utilities. Warrior classes seem to be somewhere in the middle. It is an ongoing theme here though; that people seem bothered by it at level 50. Edited September 4, 2012 by Technohic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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