No, this isn't a thread about the doctors left because of us, EA is the devil, yada yada. No, this is just me getting out there where I believe we went wrong.

Here are our most blatant errors regarding this game.

Believing it would compete with World of Warcraft.

Yes, even I'll admit, I fantasized about TOR putting a dent in WoW's subscriber base. But when I came to my senses, it dawned on me that TOR cannot compete with a game that has had 8 years to build a very solid foundation. It's just not gonna happen. Countless MMO's have been claimed to be the 'WoW Killer'. Face it, the only thing that is going to kill WoW is WoW. In between Cataclysm and Pandaria, we saw more than 800,000 subscribers leave of their own accord. When WoW finally dies, it won't have anything to do with the competition.

A stellar RPG DOES NOT equal a stellar MMO.

It's obvious. The Old Republic got the budget it did because of the success of Knights of the Old Republic and because EA wanted a piece of the WoW pie (there's publishers for ya *grumble grumble). One of the most successful Star Wars games of all time, and the first Star Wars RPG. KOTOR is also home to what is widely considered to be the greatest plot twist in all of gaming.

Like it or not, you add in MMO elements, you ARE going to muck up what made the game great in the first place. It's a lesson the industry hasn't quite learned yet, but I hope it does soon, before every beloved franchise is bastardized in MMO form.

I am highly anticipating The Elder Scrolls Online having the EXACT same problems this game has.

We should not be allowed to complain about a lack of content for the entire first year.

I'm just gonna come out and say it. If you were one of the players that hit 50 in the first week, you shouldn't even be allowed to post on the forums, and if you complained about lack of an end game in that time frame, you should be permabanned with no second chances.

This is the first MMO of it's kind - story-heavy, fully-voiced content. That is what the majority of players liked the most in this game; the leveling and the story. Content like that is going to take more time to generate. And I certainly hope that's the kind of content that is consistently generated, because if not, F2P or not, this game will fall even further than it has in terms of sub count.

This game is not about having one character and getting better and better and better gear (that's actually what I detest most about MMO's). No, the Legacy system was built around re-rolling once you hit 50, to experience another story, and the Legacy system gave you options to have a small leg-up with a new character.

Well, there are my quick thoughts. Debate, add to it, flame, it's all good.

No, this isn't a thread about the doctors left because of us, EA is the devil, yada yada. No, this is just me getting out there where I believe we went wrong.

 

Here are our most blatant errors regarding this game.

 

Believing it would compete with World of Warcraft.

That was Bioware EA, not the fans fault, they were aiming squarely at it.

A bigger mistake though was so completely copying WoW. The should have copied the best stuff from at least SWG and DAoC/WAR too.

I am highly anticipating The Elder Scrolls Online having the EXACT same problems this game has.

It will - especially if all it tries to be is The Elder World of Scrollcraft Online.

We should not be allowed to complain about a lack of content for the entire first year.

I'm just gonna come out and say it. If you were one of the players that hit 50 in the first week, you shouldn't even be allowed to post on the forums, and if you complained about lack of an end game in that time frame, you should be permabanned with no second chances.

That's just plain silly. If they'd got RvR right things would have been much better, if they'd not released early (SWTOR shouldn't have been released till 1.2) things would also have been better. Again neither of those things were the fans fault, it was down to Bioware EA and EA higher-ups.

This is the first MMO of it's kind - story-heavy, fully-voiced content. That is what the majority of players liked the most in this game; the leveling and the story. Content like that is going to take more time to generate. And I certainly hope that's the kind of content that is consistently generated, because if not, F2P or not, this game will fall even further than it has in terms of sub count.

They've already said class stories are on a way back burner because of this issue.

This game is not about having one character and getting better and better and better gear (that's actually what I detest most about MMO's). No, the Legacy system was built around re-rolling once you hit 50, to experience another story, and the Legacy system gave you options to have a small leg-up with a new character.

Except they copied all the bits from WoW that ARE about getting 1 or 2 characters Uber.

I dunno why myself, again some of SWG good points would have added to alting a great deal.

The poison and bile that was spit out of many of our forum-goers early on in this game's life was, sadly, expected for me.

I think that many of them may have been on the forums in many other games, sptting their poison there before they left:

WAR

Rift

Aion

GW2 -- very recent

It has become common for forums to be crowded with people "unhappy" with their playing experience within a month of getting the game, and many of them are former WoW players who expected the game to be as polished as their beloved Panda-Land (not always the case, I started with WoW, but have never really complained about any other MMOs)

I believe it wasn't the "mediocrity" of this game that "ruined" it, it was the ignorant, entitled players themselves. This game is great. It is like KOTOR 3, with multiplayer. There are a lot of people that would argue with me, but it is my strong opinion that SW:TOR is one of the best MMO's out there right now, even surpassing WoW in qaulity of gameplay. (I went back to WoW for a couple days, it was boring and the gameplay was absolutely stale, questing made me want to gouge out my eyes)

You got some good points there, I went wrong because I thought it was mainly about class stories and not 101010010101 side quests as well.

And yeah I don't like the new set new set even newer set for one "endgame" toon either.

WoW this, WoW that.. Anyone else getting tired of reading only about WoW on these forums? Everything isn't always just about WoW. Everyone hasn't even played that game or have quit years ago.

It's pretty simple. If people get bored, they complain. It doesn't have to have anything to do with WoW.

You got some good points there, I went wrong because I thought it was mainly about class stories and not 101010010101 side quests as well.

 

And yeah I don't like the new set new set even newer set for one "endgame" toon either.

This. But I can also post this on the GW2 forums. GW2 at the beginning of creating a toon says "And this is my story" but yet the class stories are very few compared to the endless side quests. It's more of a gap in GW2 then here.

And I like GW2 but that "this is my story" thing is pure B to the S.

The days of heavy class stories in MMOs are over. The devs know it's easier to put out side quests with class stories sprinkled in.

WoW this, WoW that.. Anyone else getting tired of reading only about WoW on these forums? Everything isn't always just about WoW. Everyone hasn't even played that game or have quit years ago.

 

It's pretty simple. If people get bored, they complain. It doesn't have to have anything to do with WoW.

My point was that many of the people who were on these forums complaining about this game early on have been on the forums in OTHER games complaining about THEM early on. They play a new MMO when it first comes out, gobble up all the content, then spit it back into the Developer's faces with a "WAAAA ME WANT MORE" attitude that cannot ever be satisfied. They then proceed to bash on the game for the foreseeable future, until a new game comes along to grab their short attention span, and the process repeats itself.

There are a LOT of players like that, and many don't even realize that they are doing it.

WoW this, WoW that.. Anyone else getting tired of reading only about WoW on these forums? Everything isn't always just about WoW. Everyone hasn't even played that game or have quit years ago.

 

It's pretty simple. If people get bored, they complain. It doesn't have to have anything to do with WoW.

Agree. I even posted something about the whole WoW reference in another thread this morning. People act like WoW wasn't a clone itself.

That was Bioware EA, not the fans fault, they were aiming squarely at it.

I agree and disagree. Bioware/EA played their part in trying to market and design it to be a WoW killer, true. However, everybody is responsible for their own belifefs and expectations. The hype for this game was astronomical - way out of proportion. The fans share responsibility in this.

I dunno why myself, again some of SWG good points would have added to alting a great deal.

I miss SWG too . But it's gone. Time to move forward. I doubt we'll see anything like it again and they aren't going to bring those elements here.

I mostly agree with the OP. I think though there is some room for legitimate complaint for people in the early days of this game. For many people, this was suppose to be a MMO that had the added bonus of your KOTOR and Dragon Age RPGS. The problem is those RPG elements really outshine the MMO. Now personally, I'm OK with that since I loved some of those former Bio-ware RPGs. If nothing else I just pretend that I'm renting KOTOR 3-10, that has the value added feature of online multi-player play.

But other people have a problem with that. To use a restaurant analogy, it would be like a pizza chain opens a new all you can eat salad bar. Because other salad bar only chains like Fresh Choice and Sweet Tomatoes business is really booming. So they open up this new line of business that has a large selection of different kinds of salad, soup, bread, pasta, plus you can get their "World Famous Pizza". And all the adds say how good it is, and even some famous food critics give the salad bar very solid reviews. However most of the new comers, that come find they don't really like the new business. They think the salad and other fixings are mediocre at best. While they like the pizza, the complain because they came to get their salad fix. In the end, the people that are happy are old time fans of the pizza place and pizza junkies......

Here are our most blatant errors regarding this game.

You're 100% wrong!!! WE...NONE of us...have made ANY errors. WE are not the programmers. WE are not the producers. WE are not coders. WE didn't rush anything. WE didn't make promises WE had no intention of keeping. WE are the CUSTOMER and WE have every right to demand a decent game for our $. When 4 of every 5 people who paid full price for this game, have QUIT it, it tells you it's just a BAD GAME. WE had nothing to do with that. WE gave them a shot, THEY blew it.

I've held up my end of the bargain and contributed with 3 copies of the game and 3 subscriptions, of which 2 have never lapsed. Don't EVER blame me!

This is the first MMO of it's kind - story-heavy, fully-voiced content. That is what the majority of players liked the most in this game; the leveling and the story. Content like that is going to take more time to generate. And I certainly hope that's the kind of content that is consistently generated, because if not, F2P or not, this game will fall even further than it has in terms of sub count.

This game is not about having one character and getting better and better and better gear (that's actually what I detest most about MMO's). No, the Legacy system was built around re-rolling once you hit 50, to experience another story, and the Legacy system gave you options to have a small leg-up with a new character.

This is your view of the game, purely subjective, and not based on fact.

LOTRO has a better story line, more immersive stories and generally much better content to the storyline. So, it beats TOR for story-focus. TOR simply gives us the voice overs.

Also, saying that the story and leveling is why most people came here is also a fallacy. It may be why you came here, but you've no idea if its true or not. I would hazard a guess that 50%+ of the people who bought the box set did so purely because it is Star Wars and nothing else. Ofc, I can't back it up with facts, but no1 can.

Personally, I came here a) because its Star Wars and b) because the developers told us that PvE and PvP would have equal importance at endgame.

I'm a reasonably hardcore player, I have a high IQ but I'm not particularly tolerant. At 27 years of age, I've played a lot of game and generally get bored of content that isn't very good. As a consequence I flit between different activities in game. I raid a lot, but I get constantly frustrated at people making basic errors. I PvP a lot, but get bored due to repetitiveness. I like crafting, but crafting systems are usually terrible. I like leveling, but repeating quests sucks. My main activities are raiding and pvp. In all previous MMO's I played, one or the other was usually terrible.

For example, WAR had excellent PvP, but PvE was dire and so when I got bored of PvP, I logged off rather than switched activities. In LOTRO, the PvE was far superior to here, but there wasn't much of it and the pvp was crap, so when I completed the instances and raids, I'd log off. Same with all previous MMOs. Thats why SW:TOR appealed to me so much: equal importance of pvp and pve! Ofc, the truth is far from that: pvp is a tacked on mess in dire need of new content and has no relevance on the rest of the game.

the main thing I think we, as a community, did wrong was believe the hype. I admit, I get caught up in it. I believed them when they said the game was going to be excellent. I believed them when they said pvp would be equal to pve. I believed them when they said that leveling up would be a unique experience. I believed them when they said voice overs would revolutionise the MMO space.

I believed the developers. I believed the producers. I believed the community hype. I believed.......

But I was let down. The promises that Bioware and EA made were never fulfilled. I feel like I was lied to. I feel like the game I bought and pay for is not the game that was advertised. Due to this feeling, it has led me and many others like me to feel entitled.

Ofc im not entitled. I'm just one gamer amoungst millions, just another random opinion. Whilst I feel entitled and let down by Bioware, on the other hand Bioware can feel happy that their marketing department did a good job and got money from me that they wouldn't have gotten if I'd have known the truth of the game in advance.

One thing I do know as a fact is that the MMO market is heading for a revolution. Too many companies are pouring vast amounts of cash in to games that are actually aimed at niche markets, resulting in failed games. SW:TOR is a niche game: it caters for those that want to play KOTOR online and will thus never make vast sums of money.

The true WoW killer is still out there. To be a WoW killer, you must offer something for everyone. You must have epic raiding to please the hardcore raiders. You must have instanced and open world balanced pvp for the pvpers. you must have engaging story lines for the alt-o-holics. You must have unique class mechanics to encourage replay. You must have an excellent crafting economy. You must have fluff activities for the casuals. You must have sandbox features to reduce pressure on devs and encourage communities to work together. You must have everything!

If you start neglecting areas of your game, you will start losing sections of the community. Just like in real life, MMOs thrive on diverse communities. The smaller the community, the faster the decline. This, ultimately, is why TOR is not a WoW killer: it has neglected most areas of the game. The raiding is too easy / short lived. The pvp is without purpose or reason. The mechanics are too simple. The classes are too samey. The story lines are too dull. The one thing TOR got right was presentation of the story lines i.e. voice overs, but that alone is not enough to retain players.

/end epic rant (apologies )

You're 100% wrong!!! WE...NONE of us...have made ANY errors. WE are not the programmers. WE are not the producers. WE are not coders. WE didn't rush anything. WE didn't make promises WE had no intention of keeping. WE are the CUSTOMER and WE have every right to demand a decent game for our $. When 4 of every 5 people who paid full price for this game, have QUIT it, it tells you it's just a BAD GAME. WE had nothing to do with that. WE gave them a shot, THEY blew it.

 

I've held up my end of the bargain and contributed with 3 copies of the game and 3 subscriptions, of which 2 have never lapsed. Don't EVER blame me!

If you have such a low opinion of the game, why are you here?

The thread is about undeserved criticism of a GOOD game, spout your bile somewhere else.

WoW this, WoW that.. Anyone else getting tired of reading only about WoW on these forums? Everything isn't always just about WoW. Everyone hasn't even played that game or have quit years ago.

 

It's pretty simple. If people get bored, they complain. It doesn't have to have anything to do with WoW.

WoW is the number one MMO in history, it's the one most people have played and it's only normal that it would be used for a comparison model.

I agree and disagree. Bioware/EA played their part in trying to market and design it to be a WoW killer, true. However, everybody is responsible for their own belifefs and expectations. The hype for this game was astronomical - way out of proportion. The fans share responsibility in this.

Yeah, but when a company generates massive hype (and their videos are excellent at that) whilst fans have a role in swallowing it, it's not really their "fault" per se.

I miss SWG too . But it's gone. Time to move forward. I doubt we'll see anything like it again and they aren't going to bring those elements here.

That's the problem though - SWG had good points that would IMPROVE SWTOR, there seems to be an idea that nothing from SWG can be copied in SWTOR, when the reality is a LOT can be copied (that's not the same thing as making SWTOR a SWG 2, not the same thing at all - anymore than WoW nicking WARs open groups and quest markers made it WAR 2).

If you have such a low opinion of the game, why are you here?

The thread is about undeserved criticism of a GOOD game, spout your bile somewhere else.

You'd prefer I pack up and leave? Is that REALLY what you're suggesting? I'm realistic about the game and "I" will not take ANYONE blaming ME for the state the game is in. I pay to play the game, not be a cheerleader.

You'd prefer I pack up and leave? Is that REALLY what you're suggesting? I'm realistic about the game and "I" will not take ANYONE blaming ME for the state the game is in. I pay to play the game, not be a cheerleader.

He is not blaming you, specifically. He is blaming the community as a whole.

I am included, he is included, you are included. We are all to blame for our vehement hate of the game on the forums since release.

To say "I am innocent" and then in the same sentence bash the game is the epitome of hypocrisy.

You're 100% wrong!!! WE...NONE of us...have made ANY errors. WE are not the programmers. WE are not the producers. WE are not coders. WE didn't rush anything. WE didn't make promises WE had no intention of keeping. WE are the CUSTOMER and WE have every right to demand a decent game for our $. When 4 of every 5 people who paid full price for this game, have QUIT it, it tells you it's just a BAD GAME. WE had nothing to do with that. WE gave them a shot, THEY blew it.

 

I've held up my end of the bargain and contributed with 3 copies of the game and 3 subscriptions, of which 2 have never lapsed. Don't EVER blame me!

I will blame whomever I want in my OPINION, sir. Good day.

You're 100% wrong!!! WE...NONE of us...have made ANY errors. WE are not the programmers. WE are not the producers. WE are not coders. WE didn't rush anything. WE didn't make promises WE had no intention of keeping. WE are the CUSTOMER and WE have every right to demand a decent game for our $. When 4 of every 5 people who paid full price for this game, have QUIT it, it tells you it's just a BAD GAME. WE had nothing to do with that. WE gave them a shot, THEY blew it.

 

I've held up my end of the bargain and contributed with 3 copies of the game and 3 subscriptions, of which 2 have never lapsed. Don't EVER blame me!

See, now I blame you for getting so upset over a little thing and you are ruining the community as a whole. Thanks man, you had to go and be so mad. Its just game, why you have to be mad?

And I agree with OP, no one should say anything about end game content....WHEN IT HASN'T BEEN A DANG YEAR!

Seriously, 1 week after games official release and people RUSHED to the end to complain. Bravo people.

You're 100% wrong!!! WE...NONE of us...have made ANY errors. WE are not the programmers. WE are not the producers. WE are not coders. WE didn't rush anything. WE didn't make promises WE had no intention of keeping. WE are the CUSTOMER and WE have every right to demand a decent game for our $.

Dear sir, you are renting a product, not buying a service. You have a right to rent it and you have a right not to rent it. It is their product, and in the end they decide what to do with it, not you. You can ofcourse suggest changes and if the changes are good, and they are smart, they will implement it.

When 4 of every 5 people who paid full price for this game, have QUIT it, it tells you it's just a BAD GAME.

No, it tells that 4 out of 5 persons have quit. Why they quit is a much more complex question.

For the most part, no matter how badly I would like it to, I don't believe TOR is going to survive it's 10-year plan.

Because this is story-wise, a sequel to the KOTOR's, I believe it is a mistake to put the story content on the back burner and now solely focus on the opposite end of the spectrum; the players that are here solely for the raids, and other MMO-centric content.

I believe that kind of back-and-forth development will ultimately sink this game, F2P or not.

Bioware would've been much, much better off making KOTOR3, and whomever is to blame for turning it into an MMO project, be it someone at EA, LucasArts, or BW, should be fired.

 

Seriously, 1 week after games official release and people RUSHED to the end to complain. Bravo people.

That was my point. My previous post describes those people and fits them to a T.

They rush through the content, gobbling it up like ravenous beasts within the first month to just spit it back into the Dev's faces shouting "WE WANT MOREEEEE" like the entitled crowd that they are, expecting the game dev's to oblige them while they are more concerned with bug fixes, content updates, and overall game upkeep.

This happens with EVERY MMO. Has happened with EVERY MMO in the past 10 years.

He is not blaming you, specifically. He is blaming the community as a whole.

 

I am included, he is included, you are included. We are all to blame for our vehement hate of the game on the forums since release.

 

To say "I am innocent" and then in the same sentence bash the game is the epitome of hypocrisy.

That's a little strong. We all are here for the same reason I assume...we want the game to succeed. Blaming US (the community) for the games shortcomings is just ignorant of reality. We all, even the ones who have quit, gave the game a shot.

Being critical of what we don't like is being honest, not hypocritical. WE know why people have left. Some of us have been here from before the start even. We know what people would like. We know what the complaints are. We play this game and are active with others who do and did. We hear the frustration in VoIP and guild chats. I don't post to be a jackhole, I post because I DO care. I care more about the people who have quit, or are planning to quit, than Bioware seems to.

I think TOr suffers from "Big IP Syndrome" this huge IP of Star Wars, many people had huge expections to go along with it, that would never be met by any company, I have seen requests and demands from the player base I have never seen made in other games, tie that in with the interal problems, it all spelled out something not good.

I read about a year ago some mmo research that claimed only about 20% of the total game population even comes to the forums after account creation, don't know if that is true here, but if you look through the fourms you do see allot of the same names posting over and over, not saying the other 80% are happy, they just don't bother with the forums.. Also communites have really got nasty of the years, personal attacks, name calling even threats of violence, I been around gaming for a very long time, and this is something just from the last few years, times they are changing in the world of gaming both the way companies do business and the players themselves, and allot of it seems not for the best.. /sigh