The issue being that we received nerf who weren't justified to our DtPS while other class stayed untouched for the most part.

As a dps sin now it is way harder to survive in a warzone, good sin will always put some nice numbers, but its harder to kite opponents for too long.

The other issues concern Deception, and the fact that devs want this burst/single target spec to deal less damage than Hatred, the dot/aoe spec on a single ennemy, which is bs imo but happenned anyway

The hate comes from the fact they got tossed in the same bin as the dps guardians and PTs. I.e. generally if you're playing a tank capable class you are not going for the glass cannon role. That's supposed to be mara. But even a mara is vastly more survivable than a dps spec of any tank capable class now.

I may have missunderstood the topic, that it was meant for pvp only. But pve-wise I have no idea what you talk about. You can bring both sin, jugg and PT dps to every single raid in the game. Jugg and PT will be in the top edge of most boss fight.

I may have missunderstood the topic, that it was meant for pvp only. But pve-wise I have no idea what you talk about. You can bring both sin, jugg and PT dps to every single raid in the game. Jugg and PT will be in the top edge of most boss fight.

That's because there will be two healers in every raid you go in, which is also why the fact that Marauders have no heals of their own is pretty much a non-issue in PVE. Survivability issues between the classes is not much of an issue in PVE. Healers don't tend to have bosses chasing after them like they have players doing in PVP, so they are more able to put their attention on the healing needs of the group.

I think Kendra's comments were directed towards PVP.

The hate comes from the fact they got tossed in the same bin as the dps guardians and PTs. I.e. generally if you're playing a tank capable class you are not going for the glass cannon role. That's supposed to be mara. But even a mara is vastly more survivable than a dps spec of any tank capable class now.

While Marauders do have better Mitigation DCDs than Assassins and PTs, I personally find it an unreasonable peception to cast the only class in the game without any baseline self heals of any kind as "vastly more survivable than any DPS spec of any tank capable class" as 'vastly more survivable'. And even if they are better, you are not taking into account the fact that the 'tank capable' classes are capable of using non- DPS role abilities in DPS spec. "Off tanking" matters, protection matters, and last time I checked guarding by dps specs in pretty popular in PVP and has some very serious and real effect on things, most notably healer/skank tank combos which can literally deciede the outcome of a match before it starts where they are represented on one team and not or to a lesser extent than the other.

Additionally, dps specs of any tank capable class are also capable of skank tanking and marauders are not. Skank tanking being role breaking as it is which I have seen you yourself speak upon is something that should be taken into consideration as well. If you take these other factors that apply to the dps specs of any tank capable classes away, than your point has validity, but it isn't as if the dps specs of tank capable classes aren't in possession in of abilities and options that Marauders aren't. Adding to this list of what the dps specs of tank capable classes are in possession of that Marauder's aren't should include baseline heals. Marauder's have none. In fact there is only one class in the entire game that does not have any baseline heals at all and that's Marauder. I'd think that might have some effect on survivability in PVP especially when there is no healer present on one's team.

For the record, I don't think Marauders should have any heals, and no I don't think they should be buffed. But considering their survivability based solely on DCDs and not taking into consideration they are the only class without any baseline heals is not a fair method of assessing survivability overall. You cannot seperate heals from survivability anymore than you can seperate damage type from DPS.

Melee have it harder than ranged, especially in PVP and I think that is something that we can all more or less agree on. We're all on the same infinite CCed, slows every three seconds, 3 mercs shooting as us at the same time from 5 blocks away while healing themselves at the same time kinda situation. While the 4 abovementioned classes are all melee, their approaches to combat are rather different [PT's have a bunch of ranged attacks, and have a 30' spammable free attack for example, Assassins have perma-stealth, Juggs have some good mitigation DCDs in addition to some small measure of heals that don't effect their DPS output, and Marauders have the best DCD package of them but is the only one of them with no baseline heals and it is also the only one of them that has no off role capabiltities]. And while it is easy to see these differences, they share a lot more in common than that which is different. That being that Ranged are the unreasonable ones with the advantage. {sorcs are a seperate matter entirely.

That said, there are considerations for all the three tank capable classes that do need to be examined and addressed, I feel.

IMO - Assassin's should have their survivability nerf reassessed and either lessoned or overturned.

Juggs should be given Force Camoflage as an anti-focus measure for Ranked [Juggs and Maras already share multiple abilities so it wouldn't be a far reach. Some may say the blink out isn't "juggish" but quite honestly, it isn't Maraish either. You don't get more "in your face" fighter than Mara and Jugg.

PT's should recieve an additional DCD that is similar to Saberward as they are a melee spec. They should not get one of the Merc's God DCDs because even mercs shouldn't have them. No DPS spec should have DCDs like that. DPS DCDs should not have healing elements to them.

Currently, I find Assassins to be much more in line to the "pure DPS" archetype than I find Snipers to be, and feel much more comraderie with them as a pure DPS class [Marauder] player. I think the defensive nerf they received was totally unfair.

Lastly, I think it's important to recognize that a lot of the complaints we see about Marauders are really referring to the current state of the Fury spec, given it's anti-cc passives, greater mobility and better uptime, and it's high DPS, they are extreme strong at the moment, whereas Annihilation and Carnage have been nerfed multiple times and they are very different in the manner they operate. I'm not suggesting that Fury is "OP" like Snipers and Mercs, but they are in a much better position right now than their brother specs overall when considering how they perform in both PVP as well as PVE.

While Marauders do have better Mitigation DCDs than Assassins and PTs, I personally find it an unreasonable peception to cast the only class in the game without any baseline self heals of any kind as "vastly more survivable than any DPS spec of any tank capable class" as 'vastly more survivable'. And even if they are better, you are not taking into account the fact that the 'tank capable' classes are capable of using non- DPS role abilities in DPS spec. "Off tanking" matters, protection matters, and last time I checked guarding by dps specs in pretty popular in PVP and has some very serious and real effect on things, most notably healer/skank tank combos which can literally deciede the outcome of a match before it starts where they are represented on one team and not or to a lesser extent than the other.

 

An issue that you forget to mention, but should be worth saying is that guarding as a dps isn't a survivability improvement. Afaik the only class that makes this viable right now is jugg because they have Intercede (reduce the overall damage taken by a lot on your guarded player, hence reducing the damage you'll take from guard) and even with that you'll still end up having some real hp issues when under the focus of two or more dps, even worse when they are tanks in dps gear because of the trauma debuff. Taunts may looks great, and they are on the long term, I can assure you that, but they lack direct impact when compared to healing abilities. You'll still end up with a lot less hp when someone taunted burst you. This scenario isn't always the same when a merc is off-healing you for example.

Right now the strong point of a marauder is the fact that he can avoid pretty much any attack for a (too) long period of time while keeping up his already insanely high burst. We're not even talking about self-healing (in fact, sin don't have a good healing ability. 15% health recovered isn't great, especially since it's initially an offensive buff. As a matter of fact, you'll recover more health by playing Anni in warzone, dot-spreading on three opponents and using berserk, which is in your rotation).

Jugg lacks of tuned defensive ability right now, Enraged Defense still give back the same amount of hp it did in 4.0, and that's the issue. Making it give back 4 or 5% health per stack instead of some ridiculous 5k hp would be better and should fix some of the issues. Making the DR when stunned a utility for both dps and tank would be great too.

As for Powertech... Well, two defensive ability (who won't even work when under focus) are clearly not enough. Give them Trauma Regulator too, as well as (again) the 30% DR when stunned.

Sin is in a more delicate spot tbh, for a long time we didn't have any real raid utility for both PvE and PvP except our damage (damage which has been nerfed for PvE, don't forget). And a lot of what could seem like broken ability (phantom stride, stealth out) don't work properly or aren't even that usefull in a PvP setting (stealth out = no damage taken, but also no damage dealt at all too). Let's not talk about the removal of PhaseWalk who has been given to sorc only, which has removed any efficient means of escape beside a bugged cloak... Furthermore, the removal of the 30% damage reduction while stunned for dps spec is also bs, since, unlike jugg and PT, we're in light armor, making us the most fragile spec of all three on a purely theorical point of view. Lucky for us, we have shroud who helps a lot compensate for that, making us at least on par with jugg (as a sidenote, jugg have saber reflect, who protects you almost exactly like shroud ) and vastly superior to PT.

All of this to say that, even though most of mara's spec doesn't have a base self-healing ability like most of us do in comparison, a marauder will still be able to "facetank" more in comparison to a sin or a powertech right now (and you even have an incredible utility called bloodward, who give you back more health than sin's saber overload while providing you with a cc immunity).

Does Marauders needs to be nerfed to the ground ? No. But Ruthless Aggressor needs a rework.

Does Sin/PT/Jugg needs an improvement on their side as dps ? Sure, as long as it doesn't impact the tank spec, or only in a fair and balanced way (like removing skank).

So.... I know this is jug sin pt mara discussion .... but I have to ask where operative fits into all of this as a melee dps?

Operative is a bit in a tricky spot tbh.

In PvP, the class can be one of the most OP you'll see around, but the skill cap is so high that very few operative can make this work.

In PvE, it's again, a matter of skill. A good operative will do insane numbers (at least a Lethality, not so sure about Concealment, who is only really good in PvP) and a bad one will just slow you down for the entire fight.

Hope this helps ^^

Questing hasnt been a problem and pvp has been a blast. Wondering where all the hate comes from recently? I get they got a bit of a nerf but it doesnt seem like it killed the class

Going from nice dps burst and 30k hits with set bonus to barely reaching like 24k hit on your best day with full 248 gear, while some 3 clicks merc in 230 gear blows you away like nothing, yeah...BW and all that.

Operative is a bit in a tricky spot tbh.

In PvP, the class can be one of the most OP you'll see around, but the skill cap is so high that very few operative can make this work.

In PvE, it's again, a matter of skill. A good operative will do insane numbers (at least a Lethality, not so sure about Concealment, who is only really good in PvP) and a bad one will just slow you down for the entire fight.

 

Hope this helps ^^

Helped a ton. I decided to just finish out the leveling on my operative. Once I got into it it feels very similar to my assassination rogue in wow and it's cruising. The way it plays is alot like my dirty fighting gunslinger which helps a ton as well. Just the melee aspect.

Combined with what has become my favorite healing spec in the game I'm digging it. Will hopefully find a team that wants heals/dps operative for hm+