I've compared this facet of SWTOR quite a bit to Freelancer and the X series by Egosoft (particularly X3: Terran Conflict as it pertains to fighting Xenon - fantastic AI in that game) - but I've found the playing field to be a bit more level in the former game (and fighting that stout AI a bit less impossible in the latter) because of one aspect those two games share that GSF lacks:

 

The weapons, armor, systems, etc.? All have one upgrade level.

 

What I mean is that once you own a particular upgrade, that's all you have to do - own and equip it. There are no upgrade tiers, and you know what?

 

It makes sense!

 

Imagine, if you will, upgradable turrets on an M1-A1 Abrams (note: upgradable - not MODDABLE. Big difference!) or cramming a chip into a Sidewinder that'll disable engines on a MiG or whatever we're fighting these days (what do drones load out?). That's silly. No country in their right mind would send their forces off to war without the best stable weapons they've got and are allowed to use.

 

Flattening the tiers would SHARPLY reduce the learning/entry curve new pilots experience. I understand this would put far more work on the development staff to come up with new weapon models and effects, but the bottom line is that they're also responsible for putting out a product that can be enjoyed by the most possible paying customers. At present, it's hard to argue GSF fits that requirement given the steep entry barrier for newbies alone.

 

What form would that take? I don't know. In the two previous games I mentioned, the problem shifts to having homogeneous loadouts (read: everybody flying the same thing) but that happens quite a bit at present anyway with the various builds (SIM bomber, Battle Scout, etc.). At least we wouldn't be gaining much in the way of NEW problems...

 

Or would we? Your thoughts/comments/attempts at flame below.

Noon EDT

Ebon Hawk/Pot5/Harbinger

Queues aren't popping

 

At this point I think the ship may have sailed

Too many people got burned by a game that was made either intentionally or unintentionally to be fun for the people who got in before them. Me ?, I think I'll check out other space games. Beats waiting for Bioware to even acknowledge they have problems.

Noon EDT

Ebon Hawk/Pot5/Harbinger

Queues aren't popping

 

At this point I think the ship may have sailed

Too many people got burned by a game that was made either intentionally or unintentionally to be fun for the people who got in before them. Me ?, I think I'll check out other space games. Beats waiting for Bioware to even acknowledge they have problems.

 

To be fair, it IS a weekday. Not everyone is fortunate enough to be ourselves - I've been a desk jockey before.

 

I'm surprised the suicide rate isn't much, much higher among cubicle dwellers and other random 9-5ers. Especially involving customer service. -bp

I'd honestly prefer components be sidegradeable to upgradeable.

[LIST=1] [*]While I somewhat agree with the sentiment, this sort of thing is just not actually going to happen and so doesn't really matter as part of the conversation. [*]Freelancer is a terrible cite for this - the game is literally level-based, someone in a Patriot is just going to be completely screwed versus someone in an Eagle. [/LIST]

1. While I somewhat agree with the sentiment, this sort of thing is just not actually going to happen and so doesn't really matter as part of the conversation.
   
2. Freelancer is a terrible cite for this - the game is literally level-based, someone in a Patriot is just going to be completely screwed versus someone in an Eagle.
   

 

1. That's why it's a Wild and Crazy Idea®.

2.

Edited April 25, 2014 by Sidenti

I think the devs went the wrong way with with upgrades, they are way too expensive.

 

I have a few ships that are only missing 2 components to be mastered, how many reqs do I need? 40k...

 

"But gear doesn't mean anything it's skill that is more important in GSF!" True, but the counter argument is: If gear is not the most important part, why make it so damn expensive?

 

They should have either:

- Made it so once a component is mastered it's unlocked and mastered on all ships that have access to it (to make up for the steep price).

 

- Or make them cost about 10 times less then now.

 

Right now requisitions are too precious a resource, I would love to try a few out there builds but I really can't so I spend my reqs on sure and proven components only.

 

The one thing GSF has on other dogfight games I play like War Thunder is customization of my ship's payload.

But at 33.5k to max a component I really can't customize much...

 

Granted those who have been playing since launch may have the reqs laying around, but that just creates a problem since they have more skills and more gear and access to way more possibilities the new players.

Since skill should be the main focus, I think components should be revised to make more affordable.

IMO Flattening the curve too much removes from progression, if there is no reason to play you will find that many people simply wont. The upgrade curve is already extraordinarily short (within a couple weeks of dalies / weeklies you can have at least 1 ship nearly mastered, there are only 10 base ships to master, once done its done there is no additional content)

 

Progression is important for any game, but even moreso for GSF where there is hardly any content to begin with. Reduce that and you may just place the final nail in the coffin (community ignorance and refusal to learn is already creating a victim atmosphere that is killing the game, do we really need to add something else?)

 

All the issues we are seeing with new players running into veterans is due to low player count, we need to add things TO the game in order to bring more people in, not discourage those already playing by removing stuff.

 

Also just wanted to point out your using progression in a single player game as evidence for changes to a MMORPG PvP game, what works for single player doesn't work for PvP. You only have to worry about one kind of balance in those types of games (Player vs NPC) and while the NPC's can outmatch you in gear, they rarely or never outclass you in flying or brains.

 

This is why GSF is so hard for people to wrap their minds around. We have all been whooping it up on single player Space Sim games since we were little kids, we all think we are Aces in our own right. But often our ego is over-inflated since all that experience was fighting mindless fluff, welcome to GSF where your opponents are wiley and you need to use massively different tactics to achieve the same success,

 

As to how to enhance player progression I think they should add a second daily pvp missions like ground pvp gets and possibly a cadet bonus to earn enhanced requisition for x amount of matches. This and possibly a system to try weapons and upgrades before you buy them. (Planetside 2 has a trial period for weapons, you get 2 hours to use a weapon on a daily cooldown, something like this could be implemented here)

Edited April 25, 2014 by DamascusAdontise

"But gear doesn't mean anything it's skill that is more important in GSF!" True, but the counter argument is: If gear is not the most important part, why make it so damn expensive?

 

I'd actually argue that gear is vitally important... against similarly skilled pilots. And also,

 

IMO Flattening the curve too much removes from progression, if there is no reason to play you will find that many people simply wont.

 

Progression isn't a big thing in PvP. People don't play PvP games because they want that sense of progression; they play PvP games because they want to play PvP. That in and of itself is a big reason to play the game.

 

Gating performance with grind is simply poor design in a skill-based game.

 

The upgrade curve is already extraordinarily short (within a couple weeks of dalies / weeklies you can have at least 1 ship nearly mastered, there are only 10 base ships to master, once done its done there is no additional content)

 

At 150k to master a ship, with 11,750 req from daily/weekly quests and daily double req (assuming you don't use the 500 fleet req token for a new crew member or something), you need over nine thousand req per day from matches to master a ship in two weeks.

 

That's a lot of playing.

 

And, of course, when you're done, there's still plenty of content -- there's as much content as your server's GSF community is willing to provide.

 

Progression is important for any game

 

Progression is important because it makes the player feel like they're advancing, as though their playtime is meaningful in more than just the immediate sense. That "progressive feeling" can just as easily be gained through increased skill as increased gear.

Thats some food for thought! My view on "a lot of time" is different from others hehe.

 

For me though why I say progression is because this:

 

I walk into a new game, get my butt whooped by someone and immediately take note of what they are using. If its an unlock based thing I end up wanting it and working towards it. After thats achieved I see what other people are doing, and try to unlock that. If there is no linear progression in a game I find that I play it for a while and then my interest peters out.

 

What keeps me playing is new content, new ships to unlock, more components to try. All of those things help to drive me to "want" to play the game. If all my motivation is blasting with no progression there is a very limited amount of time im willing to spend on the game.

 

Im all for shortening the gap into ships, but I think the way to do it is with more daily content / early game bonus's are one way, perhaps some other method im not aware of.

 

I realize I may not be typical, but progression is what turns my gears. If a game gives me something I can make pretty and or better then I am a happy hooked individual.

 

(A good example from other games is this: Mechwarrior Online has at least 60+ mechs to choose from across 4 weight classes. Each mech takes as long as a ship on GSF takes to master, in GSF you can unlock 1/10th the total content the game has to offer in 2-3 weeks, at this same rate in other games you would be just beginning to dabble (examples: World of Tanks, World of Planes, MWO, Hawken, Planetside 2 - The progression curves are long these days as developers try to squeeze life out of content for as long as they can, GSF is on the lighter side of this curve already)

Edited April 25, 2014 by DamascusAdontise

1. That's why it's a Wild and Crazy Idea®.

2.

 

re 2: no **** you can easily kill a Titan, that's why I said Eagle. That some higher-level ships had crippling flaws do to Freelancer's broken AOE damage physics isn't relevant.

Progression in PvP is a dumb idea and ideally requisition wouldn't exist and all ships and components would be fully unlocked. Sadly, typical MMO players have terrible preferences for bad game design so we have to live with it.

To be fair, it IS a weekday. Not everyone is fortunate enough to be ourselves - I've been a desk jockey before.

 

I'm surprised the suicide rate isn't much, much higher among cubicle dwellers and other random 9-5ers. Especially involving customer service. -bp

 

I'll grant that, it's obviously not going to be the best time to play but DEAD ?

 

If the devs won't/can't cross server queue they need to scale down the match size.

 

As things stand, they are playing the lets ignore the problems maybe the players will stick around a little longer game. Sorry seen that too many times.

Progression in PvP is a dumb idea and ideally requisition wouldn't exist and all ships and components would be fully unlocked. Sadly, typical MMO players have terrible preferences for bad game design so we have to live with it.

 

So just a question for you: In your opinion every ship, weapon, and component should be available from the start? There should be no upgrades for components, and everything is exactly the same at the start as at the highest level of competition?

 

In ground PvP should there be no PvP gear? Everyone gets the same base stats + whatever their class provides and thats it? IMO thats what no progression means, nothing to achieve, buy, unlock, or gain.

 

I could probably play a game like this, but lets be honest, how many games are like this. Now how many successful games?

Progression in PvP is a dumb idea and ideally requisition wouldn't exist and all ships and components would be fully unlocked. Sadly, typical MMO players have terrible preferences for bad game design so we have to live with it.

 

This !!!

But really, living with it, does not seem to be an option

 

So just a question for you: In your opinion every ship, weapon, and component should be available from the start? There should be no upgrades for components, and everything is exactly the same at the start as at the highest level of competition?

 

In ground PvP should there be no PvP gear? Everyone gets the same base stats + whatever their class provides and thats it? IMO thats what no progression means, nothing to achieve, buy, unlock, or gain.

 

I could probably play a game like this, but lets be honest, how many games are like this. Now how many successful games?

 

There's an enormous number of successful games exactly like this. Matter of fact most people outside of the very small RPG community, expect games to work that way. You don't get more better pieces because you have been playing longer. Matter of fact if you look at wildly successful games like Golf or Chess, the better players are expected to give up an advantage. (I know wild concept)

Edited April 25, 2014 by General_Brass

This !!!

 

There's an enormous number of successful games exactly like this. Matter of fact most people outside of the very small RPG community, expect games to work that way. You don't get more better pieces because you have been playing longer. Matter of fact if you look at wildly successful games like Golf or Chess, the better players are expected to give up an advantage. (I know wild concept)

 

Name one modern successful MMORPG thats like this, seriously im curious. Every modern FPS or MMORPG I have ever played has had progression. I have heard of one or two that didn't, but those games are now dead / unplayed / or played VERY little

Edited April 25, 2014 by DamascusAdontise

This was designed for f2p, the bread and butter is ship to fleet req transfers, the logical way to earn the most money is to have things to buy.

 

There is only one way to fix GSF, train new pilots right.

I'll grant that, it's obviously not going to be the best time to play but DEAD ?

 

I just logged on my pub and I see two matches going. That's not bad at all.

 

(Hint: /who kuat lost denon)

Name one modern successful MMORPG thats like this, seriously im curious. Every modern FPS or MMORPG I have ever played has had progression. I have heard of one or two that didn't, but those games are now dead / unplayed / or played VERY little

 

GSF is an RPG ?

 

But there is the whole series of quake games, The team fortress games where all you get are different weapons through unlocks. Really if you take away wow the success of these type of games dwarfs MMORPGs.

So just a question for you: In your opinion every ship, weapon, and component should be available from the start? There should be no upgrades for components, and everything is exactly the same at the start as at the highest level of competition?

 

Yes.

 

In ground PvP should there be no PvP gear? Everyone gets the same base stats + whatever their class provides and thats it?

 

Yes.

 

I could probably play a game like this, but lets be honest, how many games are like this. Now how many successful games?

 

Have you ever played a first person shooter that wasn't made in the past five years? Or any RTS ever? Or Mario Kart or SSB or... (insert very, very long list of games)?

 

Or, you know, chess?

Edited April 25, 2014 by Kuciwalker

Name one modern successful MMORPG thats like this, seriously im curious. Every modern FPS or MMORPG I have ever played has had progression. I have heard of one or two that didn't, but those games are now dead / unplayed / or played VERY little

 

See also:

 

Sadly, typical MMO players have terrible preferences for bad game design so we have to live with it.

Or Mario Kart or SSB or... (insert very, very long list of games)?

 

Or, you know, chess?

 

Reasonably certain both Mario Kart and SSB since their gamecube iterations have had unlocks.

 

And I'd like GSF to be more popular than chess.

Reasonably certain both Mario Kart and SSB since their gamecube iterations have had unlocks.

 

And I'd like GSF to be more popular than chess.

 

605,000,000 people play chess

 

http://www.fide.com/component/content/article/1-fide-news/6376-agon-releases-new-chess-player-statistics-from-yougov.html

Reasonably certain both Mario Kart and SSB since their gamecube iterations have had unlocks.

 

Unlocks (which also suck) are not the same as progression, because every player on any given console can use all of the unlocked characters (and Kart and SSB lack online play). All players have a level playing field.

 

And I'd like GSF to be more popular than chess.

 

That's basically impossible.

I said modern, I could list counterstrike and other non progression games as well, but thats not what GSF is. GSF is a arcade style mini game that is part of a large MMORPG, there is a large focus on the MMO portion (player vs player)and in keeping with the RPG aspect there are unlocks and gear to achieve.

 

The games your listing are literally samples from the first to second generation of FPS games that we all played when we were teenagers. Even FPS games these days have added progression, weapon unlocks, sights, stocks, barrels etc. All with the intention of customizing the player experience and increasing player retention through unlcokable content.

 

The newest generation of these games, the F2P model, have an even different level of progression IE progression at a pace you control through pay. Now while I think F2P is kind of lazy, it is quickly getting popular, I dont think you will see less progression in games, if anything its trending toward more. (A constant flow of content new / stuff / preferably so fast that even hardcore players cant keep up without buying / converting req)

 

The trick is (and the point of this post I think) is to try to limit how much time players "have" to play in order to be competitive. Im of the opinion that while components are a boon, people can still be competitive in unupgraded ships. I have screenshots to prove this, realistically though players should get to tier 3 components before they see a BIG difference.

 

I am in no way saying that we should't give players access to components earlier, I just think it should be done with more requisition opportunities and not a flattening of the curve to get the gear. IMO this is the best way to KEEP people playing the game.

 

(Note adding things like DF's missile break earlier could help, key components with required functionality. Though there is not much of this TBH, most of the components stand and their own pretty well and get better with upgrades)

Edited April 25, 2014 by DamascusAdontise